Ownership: Paying for things twice.

[alanschu]

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

 

Okay, so if I am getting this straight you don't just want to be able to use GOG or Obsidian or whatever, but you want all of those places to recognize that you have the game installed (regardless of where you installed it from) so that you utilize their services to patch and so forth?

 

So if you, say, pick it up from GOG, it'll still have Steam integration and you can patch the game via Steam automatically?

 

If it seems like we're being obtuse, it's because you haven't been clear at all. When you bring in phantom "torrent trackers" it gets even muddier. Like, what's the torrent tracker for?

[Monte Carlo]

The OP has either epic entitlement issues or doesn't understand very basic business principles.

[nikolokolus]

The OP has either epic entitlement issues or doesn't understand very basic business principles.

 

It may not be a binary choice?

[Grimlorn]

Am I crazy? Am I an entitled gamer? Is this naive/impracticable?

Yes

Yes

and Yes.

 

There is no reason for this. It would screw up their money and double their server fees with Steam and GOG. And I bet only a handful of gamers would want this. I mean I've never heard someone ask for a DRM free game and also say they like to use Steam, so they want both games. Can't you just buy the game off GoG and upload it to your Steam games anyway?

[SqueakyCat]

This is ludicrous. Pick which distribution you want and stick with it. If you want two copies, up your pledge to encompass that or buy it on GOG and wait for the inevitable "Steam Sale" and get your Steam version then.

 

Really, such entitlement.

[Monte Carlo]

Can't you just buy the game off GoG and upload it to your Steam games anyway?

 

This

[Shadowless]

Since I explained why in my original post I don't know why you even bothered to comment.

 

You explained magical happy land. You're saying "Hey CDProjekt, I bought this game through Steam. Valve has some money, but you should let me download it because I'd really like a DRM free version."

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

 

Okay fine how about you buy the game on steam, then you can go get your other "free" copy from GoG and they shall charge you for the bandwith at the price of......the original game.

 

/thread

Edited September 21, 2012 by Shadowless

[AwesomeOcelot]

Am I crazy? Am I an entitled gamer? Is this naive/impracticable?

Yes

Yes

and Yes.

 

There is no reason for this. It would screw up their money and double their server fees with Steam and GOG. And I bet only a handful of gamers would want this. I mean I've never heard someone ask for a DRM free game and also say they like to use Steam, so they want both games. Can't you just buy the game off GoG and upload it to your Steam games anyway?

 

Would it double their server fees? No. 1. Steam doesn't charge for server fees on a bandwidth basis. 2. You wouldn't need to download the entire game again, the amount you'd need to download is a lot less. Can you just upload it to your steam games and get the same features? No.

 

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

 

Okay, so if I am getting this straight you don't just want to be able to use GOG or Obsidian or whatever, but you want all of those places to recognize that you have the game installed (regardless of where you installed it from) so that you utilize their services to patch and so forth?

 

So if you, say, pick it up from GOG, it'll still have Steam integration and you can patch the game via Steam automatically?

 

If it seems like we're being obtuse, it's because you haven't been clear at all. When you bring in phantom "torrent trackers" it gets even muddier. Like, what's the torrent tracker for?

 

It doesn't have to be those places, I want Obsidian to recognise it, and I know that Steam supports this. It doesn't even have to work from Steam to GOG, it just has to work from GOG to Steam.

 

I mentioned the model that I wanted in my original post (which uses torrent trackers as an option), and the problem I had, I offered a solution (I also mentioned torrent trackers) but it wasn't the only solution. I didn't mention the obvious fact that the content. The torrent trackers would be for a DRM-free version that Obsidian offers to owners of the game.

 

Half the posts are complaints about things I addressed in the original post, and it's not like I wasn't clear about it. I can understand that people don't realise that the difference between a Steam game and a DRM-free doesn't necessarily have to be the entire game, but only a very small amount of files (although I don't know why I have to address this multiple times).

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

 

Okay, so if I am getting this straight you don't just want to be able to use GOG or Obsidian or whatever, but you want all of those places to recognize that you have the game installed (regardless of where you installed it from) so that you utilize their services to patch and so forth?

 

So if you, say, pick it up from GOG, it'll still have Steam integration and you can patch the game via Steam automatically?

 

If it seems like we're being obtuse, it's because you haven't been clear at all. When you bring in phantom "torrent trackers" it gets even muddier. Like, what's the torrent tracker for?

 

It doesn't have to be those places, I want Obsidian to recognise it, and I know that Steam supports this. It doesn't even have to work from Steam to GOG, it just has to work from GOG to Steam.

 

I mentioned the model that I wanted in my original post (which uses torrent trackers as an option), and the problem I had, I offered a solution (I also mentioned torrent trackers explicitly in relation to how some bands release albums) but it wasn't the only solution. I didn't mention the obvious fact that the content. The torrent trackers would be for a DRM-free version that Obsidian offers to owners of the game.

 

The OP has either epic entitlement issues or doesn't understand very basic business principles.

 

Just because this is the way business is practiced does not mean it's right. Also there are plenty of examples of games that can be bought from many other digital distributors but activate on steam, the best example being the Humble Indie Bundle.

Edited September 21, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[Monte Carlo]

You're in a bit of a hole here. Why not stop digging?

[teknoman2]

let me put it this way

if you buy a game on gamestop, are you entitled to go and demand a free copy of that game from every other shop that sells it because you "already bought it"? the answer is obviously NO

it is the same thing with digital delivery systems: gog is a shop and steam is different shop. you cant go to one and demand a free copy because you bought the game on the other. and kickstarter rewards are like preordering the game veeeeery early. you can choose the shop you preorder from but cant choose to preorder on both, pay for one and still get it on both

Edited September 21, 2012 by teknoman2

[Monte Carlo]

Hey, I like this shirt. It's neat, even if it is from GAP. I know, let's go into GAP in the next mall and ask for another one free. After all, I paid for the other shirt and it's the same, right?

 

I'm over forty. This means that I view intellectual, physical and digital property rights in a similar grid square. That is that they are property and therefore protected by property rights that the owner is perfectly entitled to stipulate to protect his or her interest. I know the twenty-somethings (not all of them but many) think that anything you buy that's made out of zeroes and ones should be virtually free, but keep on using your rationale and there will be no content left.

[AwesomeOcelot]

let me put it this way

if you buy a game on gamestop, are you entitled to go and demand a free copy of that game from every other shop that sells it because you "already bought it"? the answer is obviously NO

it is the same thing with digital delivery systems: gog is a shop and steam is different shop. you cant go to one and demand a free copy because you bought the game on the other. and kickstarter rewards are like preordering the game veeeeery early. you can choose the shop you preorder from but cant choose to preorder on both, pay for one and still get it on both

 

I don't believe physical media is the same for digital delivery systems or digital content in general. Physical media costs money to produce, sure services have bandwidth costs but I already said this wouldn't be a problem. 1) Steam aren't going to charge for bandwidth, and they gladly will take users, they've already done this for the Humble Indie Bundle. 2) Torrent trackers. 3) Obsidian can charge for server usage if they want. If you take stock from a store then you're denying them the potential to sell it, with digitial distribution this is not the case.

 

It's not an additional "free" copy, people who confuse physical media with digital content have this model in their head that's absurd. I don't want an additional copy, I wouldn't be able to get an additional copy. I'm getting the ability to play without DRM and the limitations that it has, and also the ability to play with DRM and get several useful features. Whether with Steam or GOG I'm getting as many copies as I want, I can download them as much as I want, on many computers.

Edited September 21, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[SqueakyCat]

@Monte Carlo

 

Yeah for the over 40 crowd.

 

@Ocelot

 

... and you can PAY for them twice. Get it?

[Rosbjerg]

It's not an additional "free" copy, people who confuse physical media with digital content have this model in their head that's absurd.

 

Well I have to admire your tenacity.. but that's not true - it is a different copy, one copy from Steam, one copy from GoG or one copy from a torrent - You have to think of them like physical entities even though they are not, because that's how they are sold. And yes, you've bought a copy through Kickstarter - now you have to choose the venue to download it from.

 

I get that you want to buy it from GoG and put in into your Steam library to enjoy the automatic updating etc, but that is exactly like so many have pointed out - like trying to go to a different store with a product and asking for support / refund / whatever. It's never gonna happen, because Steam/GoG wants you to put money in their basket as well.

[Monte Carlo]

Yes, you can change the paradigm of what constitutes 'property' with the power of your mind.

[AwesomeOcelot]

It's not an additional "free" copy, people who confuse physical media with digital content have this model in their head that's absurd.

 

Well I have to admire your tenacity.. but that's not true - it is a different copy, one copy from Steam, one copy from GoG or one copy from a torrent - You have to think of them like physical entities even though they are not, because that's how they are sold. And yes, you've bought a copy through Kickstarter - now you have to choose the venue to download it from.

 

I get that you want to buy it from GoG and put in into your Steam library to enjoy the automatic updating etc, but that is exactly like so many have pointed out - like trying to go to a different store with a product and asking for support / refund / whatever. It's never gonna happen, because Steam/GoG wants you to put money in their basket as well.

 

Even if that's how they're sold, and it's not, I don't have to think of them like physical entities, that's wrong. The games I have from Steam and GOG do not operate like physical entities at all, they're obviously not physical entities, and it's absolutely silly to think of them as such, it's only an idiotic contrivance that I don't think it right at all.

 

Steam are fine with this, it's happened before, so your "never gonna happen" is "already happened many times". This is the most bizarre thing about this, if everyone here doesn't use Steam or GOG, or have donated to the Humble Indie Bundle, I suggest you give them a try before commenting so you at least know how they work.

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

I don't think this request is as unreasonable as everyone is making it out to be.

 

Digital software is making a jump from being "products" to being "services", in terms of how they're treated. The Humble Indie Bundles have taught consumers that they can get DRM-free and Steam copies for the same purchase, AND they can pay as little as one dollar for that privilege(previously one cent). Buying through Steam nets a person both a PC *and* a Mac copy, sometimes with shared cloud saves! Many boxed PC games that have a Mac version simply provide the Mac version on another disc in the same box! That's TWO COPIES in a very literal sense of the word! Apple and Google are using the ability to install apps on a universal account that unlocks on phones, tablets, and as far as I understand even computers(in Apple's case) as a core part of their service. Streaming services like OnLive are mutable across multiple devices now. Video services like Netflix migrate from TV to phone to tablet to PC without a hitch. Even Cable TV providers, the sluggish dinosaurs averse to change as anyone, are starting to expand their offerings to some limited forms of easily movable media.

 

Like it or not, movable media by and large is a service that people are being trained to expect more and more from things that they just purchase in the usual consumer sense of the word. Cross-platform in one charge is becoming a core important feature of consumer-friendly companies.

 

And another thing:

 

We're not buying a game. Without us, there would be no game. Even if every single backer gave an extra copy to a friend....that's still more money than Obsidian would have without us.

 

Ultimately, people going against this largely are treating customers as some vile things that will exploit anything they can get their hands on. It seems to me, with all the trust we are putting in Obsidian, it would be nice to see Obsidian put a little trust in us.

 

...or at least toss in an extra copy at the $140 level, since that seems to be the one they really want people to jump up to.

Edited September 21, 2012 by HungryHungryOuroboros

[havok45]

This thread is giving me a headache.

[timobkg]

I think the OP lost the point when he introduced Steam and GoG. It's understandable that they're unrelated, and thus ownership on one does not dictate ownership on the other.

 

What is reasonable, however, is having a DRM-free, platform agnostic copy. I believe paying consumers should be able to play their computer games on any and all of their computers. We already have games that you bought once and could install on both Windows and Mac - World of Goo, all the Blizzard games, SteamPlay. Humble Indie Bundle adds Linux and Android support to that.

 

I'm not asking for multiple copies of the game. I'm asking for one copy that I can install on my Windows desktop, on my Mac desktop, and on my Linux laptop. After all, this is digital media. When I buy an MP3 from Amazon, I'm not limited to enjoying that song on one computer / platform. I can put that song on my computer, on my iPod, on my Android phone. I can enjoy it from any of my devices. Humble Indie Bundle brought that same freedom to games, and I'd like to see others follow suit.

[Deraldin]

Digital software is making a jump from being "products" to being "services", in terms of how they're treated. The Humble Indie Bundles have taught consumers that they can get DRM-free and Steam copies for the same purchase, AND they can pay as little as one dollar for that privilege(previously one cent). Buying through Steam nets a person both a PC *and* a Mac copy, sometimes with shared cloud saves! Many boxed PC games that have a Mac version simply provide the Mac version on another disc in the same box! That's TWO COPIES in a very literal sense of the word! Apple and Google are using the ability to install apps on a universal account that unlocks on phones, tablets, and as far as I understand even computers(in Apple's case) as a core part of their service. Streaming services like OnLive are mutable across multiple devices now. Video services like Netflix migrate from TV to phone to tablet to PC without a hitch. Even Cable TV providers, the sluggish dinosaurs averse to change as anyone, are starting to expand their offerings to some limited forms of easily movable media.

 

Like it or not, movable media by and large is a service that people are being trained to expect more and more from things that they just purchase in the usual consumer sense of the word. Cross-platform in one charge is becoming a core important feature of consumer-friendly companies.

 

The problem you have with all of your examples, with the exception of the indie bundles is that you are using examples of a single entity providing the ability to use their own service in multiple ways. Being able to watch netflix on any device you choose is not equivalent to being able to buy a game on GoG and then download it on Steam. In the first instance you have one company that see money and provides you the ability to use a service. In the second instance you have two providers of that service. Only one of them is getting your money, but from the description provided by the OP he wants service from both of them.

 

I think the OP lost the point when he introduced Steam and GoG. It's understandable that they're unrelated, and thus ownership on one does not dictate ownership on the other.

 

What is reasonable, however, is having a DRM-free, platform agnostic copy. I believe paying consumers should be able to play their computer games on any and all of their computers. We already have games that you bought once and could install on both Windows and Mac - World of Goo, all the Blizzard games, SteamPlay. Humble Indie Bundle adds Linux and Android support to that.

 

I'm not asking for multiple copies of the game. I'm asking for one copy that I can install on my Windows desktop, on my Mac desktop, and on my Linux laptop. After all, this is digital media. When I buy an MP3 from Amazon, I'm not limited to enjoying that song on one computer / platform. I can put that song on my computer, on my iPod, on my Android phone. I can enjoy it from any of my devices. Humble Indie Bundle brought that same freedom to games, and I'd like to see others follow suit.

 

This is much more understandable and it sounds like this is the way that they are leaning. The boxed copy is separate from the digital download copy. There was some discussion about this in another thread earlier with Guildmaster about whether or not the boxed copy would use Steamworks, however even if it does, you can still use your download version to pick it up from GoG for your DRM free copy.

 

Perfect platform agnosticism is a nice goal that I don't think we are quite there in terms of the broader market. The MP3 example is not an equivalent situation. When you create an MP3 file, the MP3 is not what determines whether or not you can play the song on your mac or linux box. That functionality is provided by your media player which may or may not run on all OS's.

[AwesomeOcelot]

I think the OP lost the point when he introduced Steam and GoG. It's understandable that they're unrelated, and thus ownership on one does not dictate ownership on the other.

 

That's not what I want, I want ownership from Obsidian, and this already happens on Steam, as games often have independent systems on top of Steam in regards to ownership. I said way earlier that this was a red herring, completely missing the point of my original post. I don't see it as ownership on either, if I buy the game I own the content for personal use. If a developer wants to charge fees for costs associated with porting or bandwidth that's fine. Steam aren't obligated to allow me to use their service, but they would allow me to use their service. GoG, I don't know whether they'd want to allow me to use their service if I got the game from somewhere else, but I don't need GoG for any features of services, a DRM-free version doesn't need anything past distribution, so if not GOG then somewhere else, doesn't have to be a store.

Edited September 21, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[teknoman2]

 

I'm not asking for multiple copies of the game. I'm asking for one copy that I can install on my Windows desktop, on my Mac desktop, and on my Linux laptop. After all, this is digital media. When I buy an MP3 from Amazon, I'm not limited to enjoying that song on one computer / platform. I can put that song on my computer, on my iPod, on my Android phone. I can enjoy it from any of my devices. Humble Indie Bundle brought that same freedom to games, and I'd like to see others follow suit.

well all games that are made for both mac and pc, include both versions in the same package, be it digital or physical. it was common practice since early 2000 or even before and still is (even by bli$$ard). also, steam and gog both offer the possibility to install and play the game on any computer at any time, just like the mp3 example you just made so i dont see the problem there.

the humble bundle is a diferent matter. it is not an actual shop, but more like an organisation that works together with small indie developers and steam to make its offers

but just as when you buy an mp3 from amazon, you cant go and ask for the same thing to be given to you for free from the itunes store, you cant ask gog or steam each to give you a game you bought on the other. and it is obvious that both of them get a cut on the market price (paid by obsidian) for each kickstarter copy they give. they dont do it so that their grandma's soul will go to heaven as we say where i live

[AwesomeOcelot]

What is the cut that Steam is taking from Obsidian for each Kickstarter "copy" (not a copy, probably a license)? Do the numerous Free to Play game developers that are on Steam also pay Steam? Steam definitely take a cut from sales from their store, but the use of their service, I'm not so sure because it's highly valuable for them to allow people to use their service for free.

[teknoman2]

What is the cut that Steam is taking from Obsidian for each Kickstarter "copy" (not a copy, probably a license)? Do the numerous Free to Play game developers that are on Steam also pay Steam? Steam definitely take a cut from sales from their store, but the use of their service, I'm not so sure because it's highly valuable for them to allow people to use their service for free.

well im not in the legal or accounting department of obsidian, gog or steam and dont know what their deal is. all i know is the simple fact that nothing in this world is free. even for something that seems free, there is always a price to pay somewhere.

in any case, since the distribution of the copies for kickstarter funders goes through gog and steam the rules of these two SHOPS apply.