Baudolino05 Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Of course I totally agree with Tuco. We argued about armor and weapon design several times and any time we came to the same conclusion: nothing shipped on pc (or console) in the last decade beats The Witcher 2. The guy who designed equipment and clothes for that game is a damn genius. He knows the dominant fashion and the military technology of Late Middle-Ages (at least in Eastern Europe), but he also knows how to arrange them in a personal way. Edited September 21, 2012 by Baudolino05
The Sharmat Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 The coolest real world armor objectively (Yes this is not even a matter of opinion) is any armor that has one of those Iberian face covering chainmail veils.
Karranthain Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 The coolest real world armor objectively (Yes this is not even a matter of opinion) is any armor that has one of those Iberian face covering chainmail veils. You mean something like this?
NerdBoner Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 i think a healthy balance is in order. For example the more enchanted a sword is the more elaborate or ornate its design could be...after all i don't want to wake up in the morning all groggy from the previous nights drinking and confuse my +5 Godslayer with my +0 Butterknife because they both look equally plain realistic... however, i also don't want my +5 Godslayer to look like a damned Buster sword from a Final Fantasy game, if you know what i mean.
Tuco Benedicto Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) i think a healthy balance is in order. For example the more enchanted a sword is the more elaborate or ornate its design could be...after all i don't want to wake up in the morning all groggy from the previous nights drinking and confuse my +5 Godslayer with my +0 Butterknife because they both look equally plain realistic... however, i also don't want my +5 Godslayer to look like a damned Buster sword from a Final Fantasy game, if you know what i mean. Keep in mind that we are talking about an isometric/axonometric game, here. I don't expect to be able to notice a big amount of details, let alone how "ornate" a weapon is. Everything comparable to DOTA 2, just to name a recent game using a similar camera, would probably be overkill already for what Obsidian can realistically afford. That said, I would be fine with some occasional more elaborate weapons and even for some occasional, light, tasteful special effect applied on them (i.e. a pale blue luminescence on the blade of a sword, a "lightning effect" appearing just when you land a critical hit with a hammer, and so on). What I would gladly avoid, on the other hand, are ridiculously "cheeky & cheesy" effects like flaming swords, sparkling capes, glittered armors, and so on. Even in the end game I'd like my party to look like an tough, experienced, battle-hardened bad ass team, not like a wandering circus show, filled with clowns and jesters. As I already said before, "keep it simple, keep it cool". EDIT: Just to show what I'm talking about... These are cool armors. This or the Draedric armor for Skyrim I posted before are some hilariously over-the-top garbage: Edited September 21, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto
The Dark One Avoozl Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Honestly? Why can't there be everything? Plain armor and weapons and over the top armor and weapons? We are already supposed to get majorly outlandish races are we really supposed to believe that they all wear armor primarily designed for humans? Also most of the times weapons are oversized so that you can actually see the detail and effort put into the weapon design by the developer which would be lost if the weapon was too small. Btw. I like the Daedric armor. And plot wise it even makes sense to look "outlandish" Daedra are creatures that exist outside of the regular plane of existence and are crazy over the top entities. Like. If I loot armor or weapons from a demon stronghold I expect the equipment to look demonic and not like regular chain or plate armor. I'm not saying to make all the armor fanservice bikinis but at least some over the top stuff would be nice. Especially on stuff crafted by magic.
Shardbearer Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 I think armor and weapons need to look functional over looking 'realistic'. If I wanted things that all exist in the real world I'd be playing a medeival rpg, not a fantasy one. However, It should still look 'functional', i.e. ideally armor should actually cover what it is protecting, bladed weapons should actually look sharp at some point, etc. But we need variety otherwise we might as well be exchanging damage stats on a spreadsheet. I think there's a healthy balance to be found here. Herald of the Obsidian Order
Tuco Benedicto Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Honestly? Why can't there be everything? Plain armor and weapons and over the top armor and weapons? Because the issue here isn't about having options, but about having visual consistency. My problem with over-the-top armors is that if they are in game and they are the best option (which is usually the case) I'm going to feel the urge to use them, but they are also going to make everything look ugly and silly to me. I'd like to be able to wear the best armors in game on my characters without feeling like I'm leading a band of buffoons. And while I'm not exactly the most fervid graphic whore around and I don't care much for top-tier visual technology, I don't have any problem admitting that I'd like this game to look as pretty as possible. Edited September 21, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto
Baudolino05 Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Btw. I like the Daedric armor. And plot wise it even makes sense to look "outlandish" Daedra are creatures that exist outside of the regular plane of existence and are crazy over the top entities. Like. If I loot armor or weapons from a demon stronghold I expect the equipment to look demonic and not like regular chain or plate armor. If I was an over-top-extraplanar-medievla-like-entity I would wear a better version of an human plate armor . I mean, a better designed or better crafted armor FOR A MILITARY PURPOSE. Armor's shapes aren't accidental, and looking like a damn hedgehog doesn't give you an edge in battle. Actually it is the contrary... Edited September 21, 2012 by Baudolino05
Tuco Benedicto Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I think armor and weapons need to look functional over looking 'realistic'. Well, that's pretty much what many of us are asking here, isn't it? No one wants the characters to look *bland*. And I can easily guess that we all want them to look "cool". As I already argued, the problem at this point is to decide what's "cool" for Obsidian. To be honest nothing exceedingly over the top is ever going to look cool for me. When I see an armor with shoulders of the size of a well leavened souffle in Dragon Age... ...I don't think "Wow, that's SO cool!". What I think is "Jeebus Christ, that looks like a goddamn walking stove" (and that's not even the worst in the game). Edited September 21, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto 1
obyknven Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Having a realistic approach to armors in a game would simply be boring.
The Sharmat Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 I like enchanted weapons looking fancier. But I also think it would be funny if you had an exception to prove the rule. See Lord of the Rings: Most of the rings of power were quite showy. The One Ring though, was a plain gold band.
Karranthain Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 Having a realistic approach to armors in a game would simply be boring. Realistic doesn't exclude cool looking though
Tale Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Having a realistic approach to armors in a game would simply be boring. I hate everything about that sword. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
NerdBoner Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 As I already said before, "keep it simple, keep it cool". agreed...if a sword has an elemental effect i don't want to see it on the blade (unless it is an ability you activate for a short period, then i don't mind) otherwise i'd just like to see it when you actually strike your foe. as for armors, i don't mind "fancy" armors on royal or ceremonial guards but for actual gameplay armors the most over the top i'd be cool with is something like what Sarevok was sporting in BG1...i'll admit i kinda wanted to wear that thing after i killed him
Tuco Benedicto Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Having a realistic approach to armors in a game would simply be boring. Well. This... This is exactly the kind of stuff that I hate. To me? It sucks. Badly. It's not just hardly believable and totally unrealistic. It's also silly-looking, cheesy, clumsly. And it's going to looks even worse when you will turn the concept art in an actual 3D model. That design just doesn't allow any natural movement for a human being. EDIT - This, on the other hand, is the kind of "fancy", not-exactly-realistic and yet not-completely-senseless armor I can easily appreciate: Edited September 21, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto
The Dark One Avoozl Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 If I was an over-top-extraplanar-medievla-like-entity I would wear a better version of an human plate armor . I mean, a better designed or better crafted armor FOR A MILITARY PURPOSE. Armor's shapes aren't accidental, and looking like a damn hedgehog doesn't give you an edge in battle. Actually it is the contrary... Only that the Daedric armor is magical in nature. And could give it's protective value due to that nature and not through the design. Like... lets take the Legacy of Kain series for an example. The most iconic weapon in the game was overstylized flamberge that was in no way practical usually. On the other hand. Due to it's magic properties it was indestructable and stole the souls of anything it hit exploding said target into a shower of gore. Doesn't need to be an effective looking sword if the enchantment on it blows you up. Or armors that had magic effects like this: "Chaos Armor My enemies are quite vicious and the Chaos armor extracts from them a heavy price for their bloodlust. The blows are meant for me, but it is their bodies that carry the wounds." "Wraith Armor This armor was spawned in the most impure of spirit forges; tempered from the seething agony of tortured souls. The metal exists only partially in the human realm, causing it to fade between tangible and ethereal states."
Karranthain Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) As I've mentioned before, the LotR movies, I reckon, had a nice balance between realism & practicality and fantasy look. Edited September 21, 2012 by Karranthain 3
The Sharmat Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Indeed, Karranthain. The armor was always appropriate to the application in question, and they had a nice variety. Some was very utilitarian, and some was really funky. But when it was it generally made sense. Sauron's body basically was his armor, so it can look as freaky as he wants because he's a demi-God.
rjshae Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 If it's a fixed isometric viewpoint, does armor or weapon detail really matter that much? There's no point in blowing a bunch of resources on graphics you're not going to be able to view up close. I'd much rather have good magic and environmental effects. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
The Dark One Avoozl Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Can't we all just look like the God-Emperor of Mankind and be happy?
Karranthain Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 If it's a fixed isometric viewpoint, does armor or weapon detail really matter that much? There's no point in blowing a bunch of resources on graphics you're not going to be able to view up close. I'd much rather have good magic and environmental effects. It's been mentioned before - since the game's isometric a great deal of detail isn't required; all the same, I'd be great if what we can see looked good
Tuco Benedicto Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 It's been mentioned before - since the game's isometric a great deal of detail isn't required; all the same, I'd be great if what we can see looked good Yeah, the discussion wasn't much about tiny details, more about the overall design of armors and weapons.
The Sharmat Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 It still matters, it's just that what amounts to good detail would have very different criteria.
Baudolino05 Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) If I was an over-top-extraplanar-medievla-like-entity I would wear a better version of an human plate armor . I mean, a better designed or better crafted armor FOR A MILITARY PURPOSE. Armor's shapes aren't accidental, and looking like a damn hedgehog doesn't give you an edge in battle. Actually it is the contrary... Only that the Daedric armor is magical in nature. And could give it's protective value due to that nature and not through the design. Like... lets take the Legacy of Kain series for an example. The most iconic weapon in the game was overstylized flamberge that was in no way practical usually. On the other hand. Due to it's magic properties it was indestructable and stole the souls of anything it hit exploding said target into a shower of gore. Doesn't need to be an effective looking sword if the enchantment on it blows you up. Or armors that had magic effects like this: "Chaos Armor My enemies are quite vicious and the Chaos armor extracts from them a heavy price for their bloodlust. The blows are meant for me, but it is their bodies that carry the wounds." "Wraith Armor This armor was spawned in the most impure of spirit forges; tempered from the seething agony of tortured souls. The metal exists only partially in the human realm, causing it to fade between tangible and ethereal states." Yeah, ok, it's magical. But if the effectiveness of an enchanted armor doesn't depend on its shape, even a magical bikini could work fine... If an armor doesn't look realistic, at least should look functional, and this is not the case... Edited September 21, 2012 by Baudolino05
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