Do not make the game isometric

[Quillon]

 

 

 

Pre-rendered 2D art > 3D modelling

 

It's also probably cheaper. Which means more content!

 

^This x1000

 

Nothing could hurt PoE worse, imho, than converting it to a WoW-like 3D environment. 

 

 

Makes no sense. If devs focus on action & gameplay(usually with TPS/FPS RPGs) more than storytelling and lore-building that's on them not on game's being 3D. Original fallout 3 was gonna be 3D and that was the natural progression. PoE's having 2D backgrounds are just for nostalgia and/or money reasons, not because 3D limits such things.

 

It's called aesthetics and it's different from person to person although we can agree to some extent that some things look naturally ugly and some things look naturally beautiful. You can disagree all you want some people value more the paintings of Michelangelo of several centuries ago to the 3d art of the 21st and it's not due to nostalgia they just have been and still are beautiful. Furthermore photorealism techniques have been perfected through the years while real time rendering has still a long way to go.

 

How can you claim is just nostalgia by the way? Have you personally spoken to every one of the 500.000+ buyers of POE and 100% of them told you it's just nostalgia? It's just nostalgia in your own personal opinion and in my own personal opinion it just looks way better. Noted the word personal?

 

In the end beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

My reply was to this: "3D is the reason RPGs gave up on storytelling and lore-building."

 

I didn't claim 3D is more beautiful, I said 3D is natural progression for games. Most people who prefer 2D over 3D have played IE games, right? So isn't it a safe bet that I claimed "PoE's being 2D either for nostalgia or money reasons" on my account?

 

Apart from that, Is beauty the most important thing in a """cRPG""" game? Does every other thing you see in a """game""" have to be unique? 

 

For future reference: I prefer it to be but I didn't and still not saying PoE 2 should be 3D.

[Fenixp]

Actually, when I showed PoE to my wife who's mostly a casual gamer, she said it looks beautiful. Something she never noted about games like Dragon Age: Origins. I think you'll find most people don't really care about whether a game is 2D or 3D, they tend to care about aesthetic first and foremost.

 

As for 3D being natural progression for games, yeah, people thought that about 15 years ago and it brought us some horrible things. 3D is merely another tool you may use to develop a game and it's not inherently better or worse than 2D. Having 3D graphics for the sake of having them is counter-productive and unnecessary, which is why you'll find that many games returned to 2D after the late 90s 3D explosion ended - in fact, the most popular games of today are 2D. Yes, they're often casual shovelware, but that doesn't change that.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Fenixp

[Quillon]

As for 3D being natural progression for games, yeah, people thought that about 15 years ago and it brought us some horrible things. 3D is merely another tool you may use to develop a game and it's not inherently better or worse than 2D. Having 3D graphics for the sake of having them is counter-productive and unnecessary, which is why you'll find that many games returned to 2D after the late 90s 3D explosion ended - in fact, the most popular games of today are 2D. Yes, they're often casual shovelware, but that doesn't change that.

 

It's been used and enjoyed by more and more people every passing year therefore natural progression, which doesn't necessarily mean its better for everything. And are we talking about big games which includes PoE or mobile games/"shovelware", the supposed future of games which I don't want any part in it? 

[haveahappy]

Personally, the biggest issue I have with the hand drawn, static backdrops is that it limits the modding community to people who can produce such vistas.

 

I'm not even sure if PoE will ever get a mods toolkit, but one thing no one can deny about NWN is that it had lots of really great community produced mods. I doubt we'll ever see that for a game that relys on (beautiful) 2d backdrops.

[Fenixp]

It's been used and enjoyed by more and more people every passing year therefore natural progression

It has? Do you have a source on that information? The way I see it it's actually precisely the other way around. When 3D acceleration was introduced in late 90s, every game had to be 3D. This is not the case anymore and there seems to be an increasing number of 2D games - hell, even Valiant Hearts or Rayman Legends with Ubisoft funding. Classic 2D adventure games are also slowly gaining in popularity again with stuff like Primordia, Broken Age or Blackwell series. Given the fact that there are just more games in general, I don't think a statement "There are more popular 2D games than there's ever been" would be far off the mark, but I don't have any actual data to back it up. 3D is quite simply not a natural evolution/progression, there's absolutely no reason for it to be.

 

With how increasingly unsustainable AAA development became over the last decade, I honestly believe that even big AAA publishers will start looking for ways to make their games more efficiently. Looking at those games and asking "Does this need to be 3D or would 2D be more suitable?" is one of the ways to bring development costs down from ridiculous to sustainable again.

 

And are we talking about big games which includes PoE or mobile games/"shovelware", the supposed future of games which I don't want any part in it?

You can't talk about one without talking about the other, and I think they're pretty good proof about average customer not giving a damn whether a game is 2D or 3D. Of course, not all of them are shovelware, visual novels are hugely popular, just as hidden object games (yes, many hidden object games are shovelware, and then there's many which aren't. Remember, 90% of everything is ****.) Edited December 9, 2015 by Fenixp

[Stoner]

Why ppl want to change something that works, blends in game perfectly granting it unique style?

 

3D games are fine, but some of us are dying for old-school-styled isometric 2D game with gorgeous drawn backgrounds. PoE looks great, you can zoom in pretty close to see character model and enviroment detail, and even zoom out making it look more RTS-ish. Surface designed almost perfectly, you don't need to turn camera to see what's behind the corner. 

 

All-in-all devs chose this particular design, ppl who backed it on kickstarter and bought it later all were paying for specifically 2D isometric cRPG, why Obs should completely change next installement in series? Why kill unique style that so few modern games have these days?

 

Please no, leave it as it is. The only thing I hope to see in PoE2 is more character customization options, more weapon/armor/body models and etc (which is expected), the rest should stay the same.

[Quillon]

I backed it cos of proper rpg mechanics, good writing, branching story etc which I believed in Obs have proven and could do again. I didn't care for 2D backgrounds and such, which matters little compared to what I backed it for, now I'm just expressing my personal preference, but the response is like game's being 2D is at least as much important as all the other things combined... I'll buy it whichever way PoE 2 is gonna be so long the things what makes a good RPG is in there. 

 

@Fenixp You can dismiss everything by probability. Fact is 2D games are niche now and PoE being 2D makes it more niche than it already is and being niche is not necessarily a bad thing. Also if 2D games are gaining popularity its probably cos of the increasing numbers of mobile platforms over the last decade which can't handle most 3D games but I don't have any actual data to back it up : D

 

You can't talk about one without talking about the other,

 

Why can't I?

 

and I think they're pretty good proof about average customer not giving a damn whether a game is 2D or 3D.

 

 

Heh, talk about what average costumer wants. ****Relevant**** average customer nowadays wants dragon age inquisition, I want Origins(with Obs' writing), hardcores hereabouts want to go back to 2000 and stay there. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Quillon

[Ganrich]

2D is niche? Heck, true to form cRPGs are niche. The genre has been replaced by by action/adventure games with lite RPG mechanics. So, what you want is already niche. Dragon Age changed to add "awesome" buttons, and gain greater mass appeal. I could use your same argument against the entire genre that PoE falls into. Both Bethesda and Bioware have been slowly removing/adapting things in their titles to move more toward aRPG status with light RPG mechanics.

 

It's a moot point too, because what is popular isn't always of high quality. Gaming isn't changing, and hasn't changed, in order to progress toward something greater. It has changed to make more money. That doesn't mean it is of higher quality, or even an evolution. We live in a world where Nickelback outsells most quality rock music, McDonald's outsells quality hamburgers, a Michael bay film outsells a movie with a story, 50 Shades of Grey is a best seller in the book store, and so on. I wouldn't call any of those examples a progression either. Niche isn't synonymous with anything of value or a lack there of.

 

You prefer a more cinematic game, and that is fine. I occasionally play games, and enjoy them, that fall into that paradigm. However, this game isn't it. Ironically, DAO (just like PoE) was promoted as a spiritual successor to the I.E. games (particularly BG in DAO's case) while PoE is much closer to hitting that design goal. I know I am here because PoE was 2D and RTWP. Why 2D? Because I wanted game that didn't require me fiddling with a camera all the time, that could save time on environmental art assets to focus on actual gameplay, that used prose instead of animations, etc. for some reason, the 3D examples of RTWP games feel cluttered by comparison to the 2D games. At least to me they do. I didn't want that feeling with this game, and that is why I am here.

 

If Obsidian wants to make another IP that more closely resembles DAO then I will back it, but changing this IP to be more like a game that did a worse job (IMHO) of emulating the I.E. games isn't something I want. Just because something is new doesn't make it better. Many times that new thing just has a different set of pros and cons than the old thing. That is the difference in my eyes to 2d vs 3D backgrounds in top down RPGs. They have different strengths and weaknesses.

[Quillon]

2D is niche? Heck, true to form cRPGs are niche. The genre has been replaced by by action/adventure games with lite RPG mechanics. So, what you want is already niche. Dragon Age changed to add "awesome" buttons, and gain greater mass appeal. I could use your same argument against the entire genre that PoE falls into. Both Bethesda and Bioware have been slowly removing/adapting things in their titles to move more toward aRPG status with light RPG mechanics.

 

It's a moot point too, because what is popular isn't always of high quality. Gaming isn't changing, and hasn't changed, in order to progress toward something greater. It has changed to make more money. That doesn't mean it is of higher quality, or even an evolution. We live in a world where Nickelback outsells most quality rock music, McDonald's outsells quality hamburgers, a Michael bay film outsells a movie with a story, 50 Shades of Grey is a best seller in the book store, and so on. I wouldn't call any of those examples a progression either. Niche isn't synonymous with anything of value or a lack there of.

 

Yeah like I said 2D makes PoE more niche than it already is. And yes what's popular isn't always high quality, heck most of the games(RPGs for the matter) that's popular aren't what I want that's why we're here pleading Obs to make what we want but it doesn't change the fact that gaming's progressed into this.

 

You prefer a more cinematic game, and that is fine. I occasionally play games, and enjoy them, that fall into that paradigm. However, this game isn't it. Ironically, DAO (just like PoE) was promoted as a spiritual successor to the I.E. games (particularly BG in DAO's case) while PoE is much closer to hitting that design goal. I know I am here because PoE was 2D and RTWP. Why 2D? Because I wanted game that didn't require me fiddling with a camera all the time, that could save time on environmental art assets to focus on actual gameplay, that used prose instead of animations, etc. for some reason, the 3D examples of RTWP games feel cluttered by comparison to the 2D games. At least to me they do. I didn't want that feeling with this game, and that is why I am here.

 

If Obsidian wants to make another IP that more closely resembles DAO then I will back it, but changing this IP to be more like a game that did a worse job (IMHO) of emulating the I.E. games isn't something I want. Just because something is new doesn't make it better. Many times that new thing just has a different set of pros and cons than the old thing. That is the difference in my eyes to 2d vs 3D backgrounds in top down RPGs. They have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

 

I want more cinematic experience and 2D isometric cRPGs clearly need it; which is why Obs implemented scripted illustrations into the game. Also I don't like the combat in this game in visual perspective, it's too chaotic to look at, if it was 3D it'd be much more clearer; I'd have more easy time controlling the battlefield. If Obs would ditch 2D the only thing I'll miss would be the scripted illustrations/PoE at this state needs more of them in it.

 

I think Bioware did an awesome job modernizing IE games(which my experience can be measured by hours in them) with DAO except the rpg mechanics. Yes they had much bigger budget, clearly.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Quillon

[Fenixp]

I want more cinematic experience and 2D isometric cRPGs clearly need it; which is why Obs implemented scripted illustrations into the game.

No. No! Of course PoE doesn't contain scripted interaction because it needs to be cinematic, that statement makes no sense. Have you ever read a book? With illustrations? Has there been an action sequence? Does it mean that the book instantly needs to be turned into a movie? ... No? Yeah, didn't think so.

 

And, more importantly, scripted interactions contain choices which have consequences, often wildly different. That would be a feature which would get kicked the moment you'd turn it into cinematics, because cinematics are a lot more expensive than written text. Writing 4 results to a situation as a text is relatively easy, creating a cinematic for all of them is damn difficult and time-consuming - I've never even seen Bioware or, hell, Telltale to pull that off properly.

 

As for clarity, 2D graphics are inherently more clear than 3D graphics. Personally I find this

with icons telling me what exactly is which character doing and no camera angles to obscure things infinitely clearer than this:

The only way you could perceive combat in DA: O clearer than that in Pillars is because in one game you only control 4 party members and in the other one it's 6. Characters blend in with the background, you can't easily tell actions of individual party members (yes, they're written next to their portrait, but since everybody looks similar, it's impossible to properly distinct them in the heat of battle), and don't get me started on Darkspawn fights which make you battle a bunch of enemies who all look the same.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Fenixp

[Ganrich]

I don't find this game cluttered at all, but ok. The only issue I have is not easily seeing engagement indicators, but I can zoom in and make it out pretty quickly. The only other issue is spell effects being a bit much visually, but that issue would carry over to 3D as well.

 

On interactive cut scenes... They were added because Sawyer is a fan of Darklands. It's awesome. No doubt. They bring a more PnP feel that wouldn't be there otherwise. Do they add a cinematic quality to the game? Sure, but that doesn't mean they should go completely cinematic with any future sequel.

 

I disagree on how good a job Bioware did with DAO. The were serious sacrifices made because of the use of 3D backgrounds. One of which,I believe, is a 4 person party size which I find inhibits party composition. I can't imagine how big areas would have to be to accommodate 6 man parties in a 3D environment. Another is the number of enemy types. The majority of the enemies are humanoids using variations on rogue, warrior, mage class archetypes. Booooring.

 

I have more issues with DAO, but they aren't related to 2D vs 3D... So I won't get into them.

 

Also, what is wrong with this being a niche product? Why does every game have to follow the tenants of mainstream acceptance? Yes, every company is trying to make a dollar, but if everyone does exactly the same thing then no one stands out. I would argue that PoEs success is likely because it stands apart from other games because of its niche sentiments.

 

I really don't get this. It feels like every forum, comments section, etc for a Kickstarter for old school games has someone (or someones) telling the devs to be like the AAA industry when these games were funded for trying to be different. We don't need more games that are cinematic. The AAA industry churns out enough of them. Let this game be one of the games that has a more bookish way of story telling. Let it focus on being similar to PnP, and not going to the movies.

[haveahappy]

 

Not to mention the rage that ensued when the console releases of Dragon Age had no isometric view like on PC.

I remember those bilious tirades like they were yesterday, ahhhh the memories.....

 

I do think full 3D environments, and therefore a rotatable camera, would bring the game into the 21st century. But it doesn't have that, and it isn't going to. I don't care enough for it to stop me playing, but I'd much prefer it for reasons already stated (community produced mods/campaigns).

[Fenixp]

I'd much prefer it for reasons already stated (community produced mods/campaigns).

That's not much of a reason either, have you seen the amount of mods for IE games? The reason why Pillars of Eternity isn't moddable is because Unity 4 doesn't handle modding particularly well, and that would be an issue both in 3D and 2D environments.

[Tigranes]

Not to mention the rage that ensued when the console releases of Dragon Age had no isometric view like on PC.

I remember those bilious tirades like they were yesterday, ahhhh the memories.....

 

I do think full 3D environments, and therefore a rotatable camera, would bring the game into the 21st century. But it doesn't have that, and it isn't going to. I don't care enough for it to stop me playing, but I'd much prefer it for reasons already stated (community produced mods/campaigns).

 

People say "it's 2015" or "bring the game into the 21st century" like it means something, but I genuinely don't know why that's so great.

 

I mean, 21st century gaming gave us bad sex scenes, railroaded plots, press-X-to-win gameplay and a lot of ugly 3D games, such that many of today's games look worse than IE. 

[haveahappy]

 

I'd much prefer it for reasons already stated (community produced mods/campaigns).

That's not much of a reason either, have you seen the amount of mods for IE games? The reason why Pillars of Eternity isn't moddable is because Unity 4 doesn't handle modding particularly well, and that would be an issue both in 3D and 2D environments.

There are mods for IE games, but they are mostly modifications rather than modules which is what I would like.

Campaign editor might be a better way to put it. There aren't many modders who can make those beautiful 2D backgrounds. 3D though? All tile based, point and click interface for creating environments.

This is what NWN had that I miss.

[Fenixp]

3D though? All tile based, point and click interface for creating environments.

This is what NWN had that I miss.

Fair enough. What you should realize tho is that NWN was built, from the grounds up, as a platform for distribution of user content. Development of modding tools also costs money and is not particularly simple, especially when you can ignore a lot of internal tooling due to Unity's editors. Even with 3D graphics, it's highly unlikely Pillars would end up any more moddable than it is right now.

[Quillon]

I really don't get this. It feels like every forum, comments section, etc for a Kickstarter for old school games has someone (or someones) telling the devs to be like the AAA industry when these games were funded for trying to be different. We don't need more games that are cinematic. The AAA industry churns out enough of them. Let this game be one of the games that has a more bookish way of story telling. Let it focus on being similar to PnP, and not going to the movies.

 

Thing is most AAA games lack good writing, real branching storyline; they have simplified rpg mechanics/choices & consequences; they are avoiding darker themes, dumbing down already existing lore etc to appeal a wider audience. What's wrong with wanting an AAA or semi AAA(AA?) game which includes all these things? It's unrealistic but its something I hope for. I don't want my only option is to be the low budget indie games for good RPGs. I like and play them but I want another CDPR on the market also, they are not perfect but they are the closest ones who try to stay true to what makes good RPGs for mature audience among AAA devs, 

[Ganrich]

 

 

I really don't get this. It feels like every forum, comments section, etc for a Kickstarter for old school games has someone (or someones) telling the devs to be like the AAA industry when these games were funded for trying to be different. We don't need more games that are cinematic. The AAA industry churns out enough of them. Let this game be one of the games that has a more bookish way of story telling. Let it focus on being similar to PnP, and not going to the movies.

Thing is most AAA games lack good writing, real branching storyline; they have simplified rpg mechanics/choices & consequences; they are avoiding darker themes, dumbing down already existing lore etc to appeal a wider audience. What's wrong with wanting an AAA or semi AAA(AA?) game which includes all these things? It's unrealistic but its something I hope for. I don't want my only option is to be the low budget indie games for good RPGs. I like and play them but I want another CDPR on the market also, they are not perfect but they are the closest ones who try to stay true to what makes good RPGs for mature audience among AAA devs,

And here, I don't disagree whatsoever. Why Pillars of Eternity, though? Why not ask for Obsidian to make another IP with 3D environments? Obsidian having another IP that they own would further stabalize them IMHO.

 

Honestly, I would back a NWN spiritual successor so hard it isn't funny. I don't want pillars to turn into a NWN or a DAO, though.

[Quillon]

 

 

I really don't get this. It feels like every forum, comments section, etc for a Kickstarter for old school games has someone (or someones) telling the devs to be like the AAA industry when these games were funded for trying to be different. We don't need more games that are cinematic. The AAA industry churns out enough of them. Let this game be one of the games that has a more bookish way of story telling. Let it focus on being similar to PnP, and not going to the movies.

Thing is most AAA games lack good writing, real branching storyline; they have simplified rpg mechanics/choices & consequences; they are avoiding darker themes, dumbing down already existing lore etc to appeal a wider audience. What's wrong with wanting an AAA or semi AAA(AA?) game which includes all these things? It's unrealistic but its something I hope for. I don't want my only option is to be the low budget indie games for good RPGs. I like and play them but I want another CDPR on the market also, they are not perfect but they are the closest ones who try to stay true to what makes good RPGs for mature audience among AAA devs,

And here, I don't disagree whatsoever. Why Pillars of Eternity, though? Why not ask for Obsidian to make another IP with 3D environments? Obsidian having another IP that they own would further stabalize them IMHO.

 

Honestly, I would back a NWN spiritual successor so hard it isn't funny. I don't want pillars to turn into a NWN or a DAO, though.

 

 

I said several times its my personal preference. I'll buy and play PoE 2 whether it's 2D or 3D. Apart from that I don't want another high fantasy RPG from Obs even if its gonna be in 3D. Bring on the steampunk, western, modern, cyberpunk... we have enough high fantasy RPGs.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Quillon

[FlintlockJazz]

I want a seafaring Renaissance Bladepunk adventure!  Swashbuckler is so often overlooked these days.

[Vorad]

@Quillon: I was replying to your statement  regarding "PoE's having 2D backgrounds are just for nostalgia and/or money reasons, not because 3D limits such things."

 

I don't know whether you choose your words poorly on that one or you literally meant it as written. Assuming it's the second case then that statement is over-generalized and certainly far from truth since... as I mentioned some of us prefer the hand painted 2d style isometric graphics for purely aesthetic reasons and it has nothing to do with nostalgia this however doesn't mean you won't find some people nostalgic about bg/iwd/torment etc(I for once personally am not although I respect those guys since after all they paved the road for the next generations), it just means not everyone is nostalgic, some of us prefer 2d photo-realism instead of 3d graphics when it comes to rpg/strategy/tactical games(Similarly I wouldn't like to play a 2d fps, I find the graphics on new "Metro" to be superb for example and if it was 2d I wouldn't even consider buying it).

 

edit:

 

Especially when it comes to tactical combat when comparing any kind of isometric game to 3d camera rotate game in my opinion the isometric wins. Appart from crpg games up till now most successful rts games even though they make use of some kind of 3d they still are isometric mostly with fixed camera when it comes to pvp(where combat/tactics really matter) I really doubt they are doing it just for nostalgia reasons due to age of empires/starcraft/total war 15-20 years ago. It's simply easier for most of us to manage our party/armies(crpg/rts) in isometric rather than in 3d camera. Compare PoE party combat to DA:inq tactical view... sorry but the second one in my opinion is just a joke and a poor implementation. On a previous post Fenixp gave us some nice screen shots of both approaches PoE(isometric) vs DA:O(3d rotate) most of us would agree it's more convenient to manage your party in isometric view(aside the aesthetics), there are those who might disagree fair enough to each his own I guess... the moral of the story and I conclude is that: Isometric approach it's not just(if ever was) about nostalgia it's far from it actually.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Vorad

[Quillon]

Whatever the reasons, my point was about "3D's limiting storytelling and lore-building", which I called nonsense.

[Vorad]

Whatever the reasons, my point was about "3D's limiting storytelling and lore-building", which I called nonsense.

I beg to differ the reasons are just as important. Tagging and entire community as "merely nostalgic" would be nonsense to begin with. The purpose and the reason are equally important when we are to judge someone or something. Generalization or nihilism in order to support ones opinion would be nonsense as well if not albeit chauvinistic.

[Quillon]

Isn't PoE meant to be spiritual successor to 15 years old games? Yes? So It's technically nostalgia : D Anyone can have different reasons.