y'all are bugnuts

[Azdeus]

I only take his chesthair seriously, and I'm seriously contemplating wether he is the missing link between man and ape or not.

 

That, and that he is seriously trying to mobilise some 30 million evangelical christians to try and get the best thing that happened to the US image for the past decade out of the oval office.

Add in Scientology, Mormons, creationism and all the other crazy stuff that stems from the US and one starts to wonder if there really is'nt something to this "flouridation"-buisness.

 

I blame your american saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". :D

[Drowsy Emperor]

The westling culture is in no danger whatever of being destroyed. Funny how you use the same venacular to describe Chechnya as the Chinese do Taiwan. How are the demographics, how much support do the seperatists still enjoy. Given that the Russian authorities don't shy away from torture or disappearing people in the middle of the night it's not an easy thing to answer. You don't want to be on the record if you live there.

 

I imagine the separatists still enjoy plenty of support, and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future.

There is no state that doesn't use torture and assassination when the situation calls for it (which is rare, since there are plenty of other, more reliable ways to solve problems) . To believe that is to be exceedingly naive.

 

Its a halfway racist prejudice against Russia that everything there is as brutal as possible, the state, the people, the culture...etc. Russia is not CNN and gangster flicks, just like Africa isn't a bunch of black people jumping around a fire.

[HoonDing]

Chuck Norris is a wingnut? Well, that ruined my day.

[Gorgon]

The westling culture is in no danger whatever of being destroyed. Funny how you use the same venacular to describe Chechnya as the Chinese do Taiwan. How are the demographics, how much support do the seperatists still enjoy. Given that the Russian authorities don't shy away from torture or disappearing people in the middle of the night it's not an easy thing to answer. You don't want to be on the record if you live there.

 

I imagine the separatists still enjoy plenty of support, and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future.

There is no state that doesn't use torture and assassination when the situation calls for it (which is rare, since there are plenty of other, more reliable ways to solve problems) . To believe that is to be exceedingly naive.

 

Its a halfway racist prejudice against Russia that everything there is as brutal as possible, the state, the people, the culture...etc. Russia is not CNN and gangster flicks, just like Africa isn't a bunch of black people jumping around a fire.

Russian human rigths violations in Chechnya are well documented, so in this case the media bias against Russia, which is a real thing by the way, is not wrong.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The westling culture is in no danger whatever of being destroyed. Funny how you use the same venacular to describe Chechnya as the Chinese do Taiwan. How are the demographics, how much support do the seperatists still enjoy. Given that the Russian authorities don't shy away from torture or disappearing people in the middle of the night it's not an easy thing to answer. You don't want to be on the record if you live there.

 

I imagine the separatists still enjoy plenty of support, and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future.

There is no state that doesn't use torture and assassination when the situation calls for it (which is rare, since there are plenty of other, more reliable ways to solve problems) . To believe that is to be exceedingly naive.

 

Its a halfway racist prejudice against Russia that everything there is as brutal as possible, the state, the people, the culture...etc. Russia is not CNN and gangster flicks, just like Africa isn't a bunch of black people jumping around a fire.

Russian human rigths violations in Chechnya are well documented, so in this case the media bias against Russia, which is a real thing by the way, is not wrong.

 

If you find me one major modern conflict where there are no human rights violations by its participants you get a cookie.

[obyknven]

Russian human rigths violations in Chechnya are well documented, so in this case the media bias against Russia, which is a real thing by the way, is not wrong.

Human Rigths! Wow! What's this?

[Gorgon]

That's not a bad point. It's no excuse either. You can certainly conduct counter insurgency operations without torture and assassination, like you said yourself.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I have in my possession a book that claims to be a KGB manual on intelligence work (its credibility is reinforced by the fact that it was published by Serbian state owned publishing house "Sluzbeni glasnik" which publishes laws, official documents etc.).

While there is a chapter on torture (and nothing on assassination) its not recommended as way to gather intelligence because of how unreliable the information is, as the subject will generally say and do anything to get the pain to stop.

Therefore its safe to assume that it wasn't a standard operating procedure, any more than you could say Abu Graib is the standard way to treat prisoners in the US Army.

 

Chechen insurgents were noted for just about every crime available against Russian civilians, much like the UCK did in Kosovo.

I can imagine that there were plenty of retaliatory killings in the Russian army, but that's the sort of thing to expect in a civil war which as a rule, spirals out of control.

 

 

Back on topic. Methinks the timing of the release of this movie is convenient, considering how close it is to sep 11. Its almost as if these, obviously well planned and organized attacks (that are continuing as we speak in Yemen and Egypt), only lacked an official "justification".

[Gromnir]

http://www.nytimes.c...egypt.html?_r=1

 

am imagining what the reaction would be here in the States if some random yutz in cairo posted an animated film o' a pot smoking jesus christ having sex with mary magdalene and st. john. am suspecting the reaction would be... nothing. have mobs form and attack egyptian or libyan embassies and kill random folks in airports who looks like they might be from the middle-east?

 

...

 

nuts.

 

 

That the west turns a blind eye to disrespect towards the book they swear to, "in God we trust" etc - is not a portrayal of how wonderfully tolerant it is. More like, apathetic and fragmented to the point that anyone can say and do just about anything without fear of sanction. While a reaction might happen in the states, europe is disgraceful in that regard.

 

Well except if you dare question the prevalent multicultural dogma, then you're looking at a quick trip to personal and professional ruin.

 

your ignorance is astounding. the notion that Americans is apathetic 'bout religion and culture is only possible if you has never picked up a newspaper or watched tv... much less lived in the States. because we has genuine freedom o' expression, we has been frequent exposed to artists and madmen who is trying to get a reaction from the American public. we, as a people, is not apathetic, but we is having far more familiarity in dealing with hurtful words and images. put bluntly, we is more grown up in dealing with disturbing word and images. you need your governments to act as a prophylactic to protect you from mean words? *chuckle* the difference is that the average American recognizes that offending words and images created by an individual is never a reasonable cause for violence, and rarely is a cause for concern. sure, we got the occasional nutter (or group o' nutters) that resort to violence 'cause images o' Christ or the flag is defamed, but our CULTURE is such that WE are willing to endure such images and words 'cause it is the only way to be protecting everybody's freedom o' expression."sticks and stones... "in this matter it is as if the rest o' the world is collectively stuck at 8 years of age. thank goodness we lives in the US.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 13, 2012 by Gromnir

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its ridiculous to consider yourself superior just because the nation states of the rest of the world have strong ties with a particular ethnicity, religion, culture and history that binds them to act in certain ways and have people that believe so much in those things that they are ready to kill for them.

 

To collectively dismiss them as "nutters" is to show you have no idea how the rest of the world thinks, since they don't fit into your narrow world view.

 

In that respect, I can perfectly understand and even justify (from their position, as practicing Muslims) recent events. What's not to understand? The US has been invading, killing and establishing control over the arab world for decades now, with thousands upon thousands of soldiers on the ground, countless numbers of dead civilians and countries destabilized. That in itself is reason enough to hate everything american and the american army and politicians in particular. Since they have been robbed of any semblance of national pride after so many defeats, the only thing that's left that's sacred and whole is religion. And in their eyes, the west, personified by the US is trying to defile that too. Thus retribution is the only, most logical choice. Since their nations are ruled mostly by marionettes, the only kind of retribution, the only vent for their frustration (which goes hand in hand with poverty and unemployment) they can manage is low intensity acts like this.

 

Bottom line: they're not doing this because of the film, they're doing it because of everything.

 

See how easy it was?

Edited September 13, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Malcador]

Should have left Gaddafi in power, I guess.

[Enoch]

Its ridiculous to consider yourself superior just because the nation states of the rest of the world have strong ties with a particular ethnicity, religion, culture and history that binds them to act in certain ways and have people that believe so much in those things that they are ready to kill for them.

 

It's ridiculous to object to state oppression of (or, in your own example, murder of) people who look/talk/pray differently than previous generations of your fellow citizens did? Really?

 

I think I'm OK with feeling just a smidge superior in that respect.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its ridiculous to consider yourself superior just because the nation states of the rest of the world have strong ties with a particular ethnicity, religion, culture and history that binds them to act in certain ways and have people that believe so much in those things that they are ready to kill for them.

 

It's ridiculous to object to state oppression of (or, in your own example, murder of) people who look/talk/pray differently than previous generations of your fellow citizens did? Really?

 

I think I'm OK with feeling just a smidge superior in that respect.

 

Are you referring to the Chechnya discussion? As far as I recall it was them who instigated the war, and the response was predictable in terms of how these conflicts go. Where is this state oppression you speak of?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Should have left Gaddafi in power, I guess.

 

Ironic isn't it?

[Enoch]

Its ridiculous to consider yourself superior just because the nation states of the rest of the world have strong ties with a particular ethnicity, religion, culture and history that binds them to act in certain ways and have people that believe so much in those things that they are ready to kill for them.

 

It's ridiculous to object to state oppression of (or, in your own example, murder of) people who look/talk/pray differently than previous generations of your fellow citizens did? Really?

 

I think I'm OK with feeling just a smidge superior in that respect.

 

Are you referring to the Chechnya discussion? As far as I recall it was them who instigated the war, and the response was predictable in terms of how these conflicts go. Where is this state oppression you speak of?

The part where governments tell their people what they can and cannot say, write, or otherwise express based on some ephemeral notion of preserving "culture."

[obyknven]

In 1954, after it was discovered that the Muslim Brotherhood was responsible for an attack on his life, President Gamal Nasser of Egypt ordered a crackdown. Fleeing members of the Muslim Brotherhood were then shuttled to the CIA

[Hurlshort]

Its ridiculous to consider yourself superior just because the nation states of the rest of the world have strong ties with a particular ethnicity, religion, culture and history that binds them to act in certain ways and have people that believe so much in those things that they are ready to kill for them.

 

 

The part I bolded sounds absurd.

 

Do you know that there are millions of American Muslims? Like living in the US, practicing their religion peacefully, attending mosques all over the country, and managing not to kill anyone for their beliefs.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its ridiculous to consider yourself superior just because the nation states of the rest of the world have strong ties with a particular ethnicity, religion, culture and history that binds them to act in certain ways and have people that believe so much in those things that they are ready to kill for them.

 

It's ridiculous to object to state oppression of (or, in your own example, murder of) people who look/talk/pray differently than previous generations of your fellow citizens did? Really?

 

I think I'm OK with feeling just a smidge superior in that respect.

 

Are you referring to the Chechnya discussion? As far as I recall it was them who instigated the war, and the response was predictable in terms of how these conflicts go. Where is this state oppression you speak of?

The part where governments tell their people what they can and cannot say, write, or otherwise express based on some ephemeral notion of preserving "culture."

 

What I'm saying is that a government cannot allow open calls to separatism and the sort of political activism that undermines the fabric of society. The latter part is vague, but that's the nature of things since its a thin line between "freedom of speech" and thinly veiled (or open) insults made to the beliefs of the majority.

[Hurlshort]

Crazy conspiracy talk

 

Your whole argument breaks apart when you realize that the CIA actively employs a considerable amount of Muslims at many different levels. The idea that a government agency is targeting a religion is laughable, they are targeting violent extremism.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its ridiculous to consider yourself superior just because the nation states of the rest of the world have strong ties with a particular ethnicity, religion, culture and history that binds them to act in certain ways and have people that believe so much in those things that they are ready to kill for them.

 

 

The part I bolded sounds absurd.

 

Do you know that there are millions of American Muslims? Like living in the US, practicing their religion peacefully, attending mosques all over the country, and managing not to kill anyone for their beliefs.

 

I meant it in situations where killing is "expected", like in a ethnically, religiously etc. motivated conflict (war). Not killing people at random on the street. And I wasn't referring to Muslims in particular, rather most of the world in general. There is a difference between a fringe lunatic involved in violence and a mob expressing the general sentiment of the population and the latter is what's happening in US embassies. I was essentially refuting Gromnirs statement that there is anything "nuts" in this situation.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Rosbjerg]

Wahhabism was created by the British, in the eighteenth century to undermine the Ottoman Empire.

 

If anyone - the Russian and Austrians were the nation most interested in destabilizing the region - as evident by the many wars the initiated..

 

Actually, the British Empire was very interested in keeping the Ottomans on the throne and sided with them on a number of occasions, like the Crimean War of 1854-55 - The Convention of London in 1840 also clearly stipulated (and forced through by the British), that no European power was allowed to exert any influence on the Ottoman empire, due to the fear of the destabilizing effect an Ottoman collapse would have on Europe.

 

it was only during the rising nationalism of the Balkans that popular opinion shifted in the British population and the government was forced to let Ottoman empire dissolve, which of course - as they feared, paved the way for the greather conflicts that would finally escalate into WW1.

 

I can heartily recommend "The Arabs - A history" by Eugene Rogan - if anyone is interested in the history of the middle east.

[Enoch]

What I'm saying is that a government cannot allow open calls to separatism and the sort of political activism that undermines the fabric of society. The latter part is vague, but that's the nature of things since its a thin line between "freedom of speech" and thinly veiled (or open) insults made to the beliefs of the majority.

The "social fabric" that has to fear mere words raised in opposition is no social fabric at all. It is a strawman for the justification of the suppression of dissent by the powers-that-be.

 

What you've written is essentially the mission statement for every despotic/fascist/oligarchic/theocratic censorship regime in history.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Enoch

[obyknven]

The "social fabric" that has to fear mere words raised in opposition is no social fabric at all. It is a strawman for the justification of the suppression of dissent by the powers-that-be.

 

What you've written is essentially the mission statement for every piece of despotic/fascist/oligarchic/theocratic censorship regime in history.

 

You make me lol. Westlings have lots taboos. Let's talk about racial or gender superiority for example.

[Rosbjerg]

You make me lol. Westlings have lots taboos. Let's talk about racial or gender superiority for example.

 

No races are superior.. See that isn't so hard to discuss (ps. if you want to put a European at ill-ease, talk about how they perceive cultural superiority)

 

You are however using deflective arguments.

[ShadySands]