Piracy

[Tigranes]

Let me reiterate: the present discussion of piracy is perfectly fine, but as a forum hosted by an American video game company, we can't have anyone telling people how to pirate X game, encouraging people to pirate X game, or saying they went and pirated X game. That's not a statement on the ethics of the practice, or the various legal differences across the world, or what you do away from this forum. As I said, feel free to discuss what is a major debate in the game industry, and have a variety of views, but I'm sure everyone understands that basic constraint.

 

If you have any Qs, just PM me or Fio.

[mkreku]

Jagged Alliance 2, my favorite game ever, was actually released in Europe many months before it made it to the US. While I was upset and really really wanted to play it, I still waited until it finally got released stateside. There are Japanese games that don't get released here as well. The fact is these are still just pieces of entertainment, and my life goes on whether I play them or not.

 

mkreku, are you really saying there was no legal option to get Gothic? You couldn't have someone buy it and send it to you? You couldn't wait until it was available for purchase online somewhere?

 

It has still never been physically sold in Sweden, except in a pack (Gothic Universe, released in 2008, which I've bought) and now on GoG (and other digital retailers). So theoretically, I could have predicted the future and waited 8 years to buy it legally. Or foreseen the digital download boom and bought it legally that way ten years later.

 

Hurlshot, one game (or a few every now and then) does not a problem make. It's when an entire country is systematically shunned arbitrarily that this "if they don't give a crap about me, then I don't give a crap about them" mentality can prosper. Been there, done that. Sweden is small. Our entire population is less than New York, one city in the US (think about that the next time you lose to us in hockey!). It took a while for us to become an accepted market. There are still small countries (usually Eastern European) that are under this curse.

 

I am not defending piracy. But this holier-than-thou attitude that some of the narrow-minded hypocrites in this thread protrude gets on my nerves.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Tigranes

[Gfted1]

Whether or not random internet people belive me is beyond my capacity to care. I have never once pirated any digital medium. Lots of people have lots of things that I dont and remarkably Ive never stolen to compensate for that. That just blew your mind didnt it?

No, it's OK, I already thought you were a liar.

 

You may think what you like but we know youre nothing more than a common thief.

[Tigranes]

One thing I do think is a major barrier is how the credit economy is still very region-specific - you'd think if you had a credit card you could, you know, buy stuff online, but that's often not the case, even if you come from somewhere like New Zealand. I never had it as bad as some describe but NZ 10+ years ago or Korea also had distribution problems.

 

This is naive, but it would be nice to have a globally centralized credit payment system that doesn't take 5/10% cuts, for indies and direct distribution as well.

[mkreku]

Whether or not random internet people belive me is beyond my capacity to care. I have never once pirated any digital medium. Lots of people have lots of things that I dont and remarkably Ive never stolen to compensate for that. That just blew your mind didnt it?

No, it's OK, I already thought you were a liar.

 

You may think what you like but we know youre nothing more than a common thief.

Yes, I am. I did a wrong choice 12 years ago and I stand by that because.. I'm not a liar.

 

And I'm sure that you've never looked at porn either. And if you would ever stoop so low, I am sure you would definitely buy all of it. Right?

[Gfted1]

Whether or not random internet people belive me is beyond my capacity to care. I have never once pirated any digital medium. Lots of people have lots of things that I dont and remarkably Ive never stolen to compensate for that. That just blew your mind didnt it?

No, it's OK, I already thought you were a liar.

 

You may think what you like but we know youre nothing more than a common thief.

Yes, I am. I did a wrong choice 12 years ago and I stand by that because.. I'm not a liar.

 

And I'm sure that you've never looked at porn either. And if you would ever stoop so low, I am sure you would definitely buy all of it. Right?

 

Exactly.

 

It must be getting dark in Sweden by this time, arent you late to go jack someone for something they have but you dont? Go on, you deserve it.

[Malcador]

Wait, mkreku is a mugger now ? Hm I guess those "You wouldn't..." anti piracy videos had the right idea.

[Gfted1]

Thievery is different depending on what you steal?

[mkreku]

And I'm sure that you've never looked at porn either. And if you would ever stoop so low, I am sure you would definitely buy all of it. Right?

Exactly.

Thanks for answering that. I'm sure you're very honest, it's incredibly believable.

 

The rest was becoming a little bit too kindergarten for me, so.. I think I've proved my point here already.

[Malcador]

Thievery is different depending on what you steal?

 

Well, what he did with Gothic wasn't stealing, really. But meh, carry on.

[Gfted1]

If you feel that proving your point was "Ill steal whatever Ive randomly justified in my brain", then yes, yes you have.

[Oner]

Aren't you the cutest little zealot.

[Mamoulian War]

I think his point was along the lines of them charging you some insane price related to what they would charge him. Although Austria is in a jerkwater region of the world, it would be a good idea for someone to go buy stuff there and bring it back. Not that feasible I suppose.

 

The problem with buying games in Austria was, that they had law, that the manuals and most of the games had to be translated to German language, and knowledge of German language is in my country problem even now in 2012, so the only possibility to buy a game outside of Ocean, Domark and Gremlin titles would be travelling to United Kingdom, Netherlands or some Scandinavian countries, because no business bothered to ship games to my country at that time... So then it is just logical, that most of the gamers here just got the games from shady sources. You either bought shady game for 30EUR or you travelled to UK and bought the game there which cost you in total more than 1000EUR...

 

People here had at that time top-notch PCs, and there was realy big demand here for "Western" entertainment at that time.

 

One thing I do think is a major barrier is how the credit economy is still very region-specific - you'd think if you had a credit card you could, you know, buy stuff online, but that's often not the case, even if you come from somewhere like New Zealand. I never had it as bad as some describe but NZ 10+ years ago or Korea also had distribution problems.

 

This is naive, but it would be nice to have a globally centralized credit payment system that doesn't take 5/10% cuts, for indies and direct distribution as well.

 

The credit cards, which are issued in my country do have problem with acceptance. I still cannot legally buy anything, which is under IP category (books, movies, games, music...), from Amazon as an example (I have VISA classic which gets accepted anywhere in the world, even in some like gfted1 said "backwater" countries like Ukraine, Turkey, Hungary)... The only way how to buy some stuff for me is to check often e-bay and hope that I do not get shafted... And thankfully there are few companies which accepts my country of origin, and they earned a pretty loyal customer that way.

[Gfted1]

Thievery is different depending on what you steal?

 

Well, what he did with Gothic wasn't stealing, really. But meh, carry on.

 

I know Tigranes already cleaned it up so perhaps you didnt see it, but blatantly admitting to pirating Gothic isnt stealing? Mkay.

[Gfted1]

Aren't you the cutest little zealot.

 

I suppose. I just find thieves of any cut to be total scumbags. And the pathetic justifications kill me to death.

[Malcador]

I know Tigranes already cleaned it up so perhaps you didnt see it, but blatantly admitting to pirating Gothic isnt stealing? Mkay.

 

Was going at the idea that stealing decrements the amount they have. Not really the case with pirating the game, and is a bit different than slating him as a mugger. Although, I suppose you could consider stealing as getting something for nothing, so may be.

 

The raging on this is always cute though.

[Hurlshort]

I know Tigranes already cleaned it up so perhaps you didnt see it, but blatantly admitting to pirating Gothic isnt stealing? Mkay.

 

Was going at the idea that stealing decrements the amount they have. Not really the case with pirating the game, and is a bit different than slating him as a mugger. Although, I suppose you could consider stealing as getting something for nothing, so may be.

 

The raging on this is always cute though.

 

Bleh, we've argued the whole definition aspect to death enough times already. Let's not get into that. Morally, if someone creates something and asks for compensation, and you take it without paying, you are in the wrong.

 

mrkreku is more arguing about regional conflicts that make it unavailable to people.

[Gfted1]

Everyone has to make their own decisions but to me theres not much difference between pirating and lifting someones wallet in a crowded subway, only the methodology changes. One requires a button click, the other a deft hand. Either way, someones out of 50 bucks. Because the thief deserves it. Its a tough world out there and if you arent willing to steal than *gasp* you'll have to do without.

[Amentep]

They never sold the original Gothic in Sweden.

 

And get off your high horses, Amentep and Gfted1. Do you honestly think anyone believes that if you were in the situation where you can read about games, you can see other people play the games, you know everyone in the world except in your country can play the games (something which is extremely annoying and makes you want to hurt someone.. basic human emotions), and you see the games one mouse click away on the internet, that you would not click that link?

 

I tried up front to say that I'm not making a value judgement about piracy, but I'm trying to understand the rationale for "I want X" becoming "I'll pirate X". I see in my second post where that intent was put at cross purposes with some of my responses which wasn't what I was trying to do. I'm sure if some "holy grail" want was put before me I'd be tempted to procure it through any means just as anyone else would - perhaps the issue in regards to commonly "pirated" things through the internet (games, music, movies, tv) is I don't have a strong enough emotive connection with these so that' I'd have to "pirate" to obtain? I dunno.

 

I know and understand (again I'm not making a pro/con value judgement here) about the "grey market" - like out-of-print games from long defunct publishers that will never be seen on some "best of" collection or "bootlegs" that are supported by a band because it helps get their name out there, or even collector-to-collector trades of material (old movies duped off 16 mm or tv shows recorded ages ago to VHS or Beta and then traded for similar from others). But these things - and perhaps I'm wrong here - seem a bit different from seeking out sources with which to intentionally acquire things that you don't (or can't) have access to that are "current". But I also feel it is, perhaps, too easy to dismiss this action as simply "entitlement" from people who feel they should have whatever they want.

 

One issue that comes to mind that perhaps fuels my inability to understand this may be from the fact that while "everyone" in the world but a particular country may be able to play a game, that argument comes to me as sort of "if everyone jumped off a cliff would you do it too?" scenario. I can't help but feel that worldwide "peer pressure" isn't a strong enough reason. But maybe it is that simple?

[Mamoulian War]

Many people are looking at it this way.

 

If I am in European Union, I have same duties and must obey same common laws as inhabitants of UK, Germany, Sweden. I want to have same privileges than them. If the company does treat me as a lower human being compared to other less "backwater" countries, I will treat the company same way...

 

I am not telling that it is right/wrong, but I hope you get the point, what is in a mind of less responsible youths...

 

All EU inhabitants are the same in the eyes of the EU laws, but still they are not...

[Delfosse]

Whether or not random internet people belive me is beyond my capacity to care. I have never once pirated any digital medium. Lots of people have lots of things that I dont and remarkably Ive never stolen to compensate for that. That just blew your mind didnt it?

No, it's OK, I already thought you were a liar.

 

Oh, he's not a liar. Half americans are like that. Offtop it may be, but I can bet a 100 bucks that he votes republican. He's really that dim, that redneck, and that much of an arrogant bigot. That's how people like him operate. They're always right and everyone else is always wrong. Even when their own fault is obvious, they refuse to admit it. Here's a little example. They covered it up for a year, was it? And even when it got out, only one guy served 3 year of house arrest. Because foreigners aren't worth **** to them and your problems make them laugh, cause you're all retarded nations to them.

 

All this makes me sick.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Delfosse

[Hurlshort]

Delfosse, maybe you can hold off on the insults and generalizations a bit? Gifted and mrkreku may be bickering and giving each other a hard time, but they stop at outright name calling.

 

Also given your low opinion of so many Americans, I'm not sure why you are hanging out on the board of an American corporation.

[Delfosse]

Well I don't consider saying "you're a thief" as something other than name calling. He refuses to even try to imagine himself in place of others, insulting everyone with his arrogant generalizations and his lazy nonchalant spite towards what he considers as lowly countries (jerkwater regions as he calls them).

 

Oh, am I generalizing? Well if you look at what your buddy's saying, you're gonna see that I'm not the source of the problem.

 

Also given your low opinion of so many Americans, I'm not sure why you are hanging out on the board of an American corporation.

This xenophobic remark beats everything your american buddy said, congrats.

[Gfted1]

Whether or not random internet people belive me is beyond my capacity to care. I have never once pirated any digital medium. Lots of people have lots of things that I dont and remarkably Ive never stolen to compensate for that. That just blew your mind didnt it?

No, it's OK, I already thought you were a liar.

 

Oh, he's not a liar. Half americans are like that. Offtop it may be, but I can bet a 100 bucks that he votes republican. He's really that dim, that redneck, and that much of an arrogant bigot. That's how people like him operate. They're always right and everyone else is always wrong. Even when their own fault is obvious, they refuse to admit it. Here's a little example. They covered it up for a year, was it? And even when it got out, only one guy served 3 year of house arrest. Because foreigners aren't worth **** to them and your problems make them laugh, cause you're all retarded nations to them.

 

All this makes me sick.

 

Lets just take a quick second and be honest, are you a child? Your "discussions" immediately devolve to name calling whenever someone disputes you and you reference things not even being discussed. I can only conclude you are young or this is your shtick and if its the latter, we already have angry soviet nationals on board that are doing a better job.

[Delfosse]

Because you think I'm gonna try to convince an impregnable arrogant insulting fool that he's wrong? Are you serious? No, I'm gonna take offense in your gibberish, tell you who you are and be on my way to do actual interesting things instead of talking to a spastic. If you want to become someone better, drop everything you're doing right now, lock your doors, shut your phone and start reading philosophy/history/politics books for a year. I know you're not gonna do this, so even writing this was a waste of my time. By the way, soviet national is an oxymoron.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Delfosse