Piracy

[Zoraptor]

You can argue " but is it illegal to Pirate, is it theft? " In every country in the world the law says it is. So therefore from a legal perspective it is.

 

Really? Because it's my understanding that in every single country in the world, copyright infringement is explicitly not theft. That's why "copyright infringement" and "theft" are two different crimes.

 

Well (and I'm guessing here) if you download a copy that you don't own and then share it, isn't it technically theft and then copyright infringement. If you however own a copy and then share it, then it's only CF.

No; to use BruceVC's watch example walking into the shop and taking the watch is theft- the owner is deprived of the ownership of the watch and its benefits, including selling it. If on the other hand you duplicated the watch the owner would still own the original and have its benefits no matter how many copies were made, similarly if I copied the Mona Lisa it is not the same as stealing it from the Louvre, though both end up with me having the painting one means that the Louvre still has the painting while the other deprives them of it. If you steal a CD with songs on it you will get arrested and (potentially) charged criminally with theft, if on the other hand you download the songs that make up the CD the shop can still sell the CD and the law broken is copyright infringement which is (at least in small scale cases and most jurisdictions) a civil rather than criminal matter.

[alanschu]

But using DRM free software only is impossible in this world, therefore lot of countries allow as a basic right of the customers to make one working copy of your software or music or movie and the only option how to achieve this is DRM circumvention.

 

Is it? Surely you can restrict how much you use then. And if you're looking at just video gaming, your claim isn't true at all. (there are actually people where I work that only get games if they are DRM free)

 

 

 

If you are adamantly against DRM, you should never download because all you do is provide data points that encourage people to enact various types of DRM. Best to stick exclusively with DRM free software.

 

Does software piracy drive DRM adoption?

 

 

Yes. Particularly the forms of copy protection. Even before things were known as "digital rights management" game developers would include mechanisms that would make distributing copies of the game difficult.

 

Codes on brown paper (more difficult to photocopy)

Code wheels

Manual references

 

And so forth.

 

If piracy didn't exist, these would be colossal wastes of time and money (you can argue they still are now, but I'm not the person you have to convince, unfortunately).

[Lord of Lost Socks]

Oh. And why the hell do I need to watch anti-piracy commercials when I buy DVD's and Blu-Ray's? Why do I get a better service by pirating?

 

Stephen Fry also brings up a lot of decent points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg

 

I would also like to point out that I have yet to see any company that rents storage units be forced by the government to go through the stuff of each customer to see if there's stolen stuff in there or anything illegal in general.

 

Some more food for thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZadCj8O1-0

 

I do think that copyright creates atleast as many problems as it solves.

 

EDIT: One last edit to the guy complaining about me pirating Minecraft: http://notch.tumblr.com/post/1121596044/how-piracy-works

Edited December 11, 2012 by Lord of Lost Socks

[jivex5k]

My 2 cents:

 

If media providers made it easier to obtain their media they would see piracy rates decrease.

Maybe a little, maybe a lot, I don't have the data to even estimate that....but I know this:

 

If you try to watch Game of Thrones on demand, it's a real PITA.

If you download a torrent, you can have the whole season in a couple clicks.

 

South Park is ahead of the curve, but red tape prevents them from providing a stream of their latest episodes.

 

If media providers embrace streaming and the internet they could be making back some of that lost revenue.

[Diagoras]

If piracy didn't exist, these would be colossal wastes of time and money (you can argue they still are now, but I'm not the person you have to convince, unfortunately).

 

Hmm, I should have been more clear.

 

My understanding is almost all DRM that now exists and is used is targeted towards "casual" copyright infringement - like lending your game to a friend. The intent it to lock down the product as much as possible so that you can't give a CD to your friend, or lend him the game, or rent it from a store. CD keys, online authentication, etc. are part of this.

 

Meanwhile, "hardcore" piracy on torrent sites with cracks and keygens have long since been given up on by most major publishers as being too expensive to counter.

[Diagoras]

You can argue " but is it illegal to Pirate, is it theft? " In every country in the world the law says it is. So therefore from a legal perspective it is.

 

Really? Because it's my understanding that in every single country in the world, copyright infringement is explicitly not theft. That's why "copyright infringement" and "theft" are two different crimes.

 

Well (and I'm guessing here) if you download a copy that you don't own and then share it, isn't it technically theft and then copyright infringement. If you however own a copy and then share it, then it's only CF.

 

Nope, both are just copyright infringement. Theft requires that you steal something, copyright infringement is just the violation of a state monopoly.

[BruceVC]

I am honestly confused

You can argue " but is it illegal to Pirate, is it theft? " In every country in the world the law says it is. So therefore from a legal perspective it is.

 

Really? Because it's my understanding that in every single country in the world, copyright infringement is explicitly not theft. That's why "copyright infringement" and "theft" are two different crimes.

 

Well (and I'm guessing here) if you download a copy that you don't own and then share it, isn't it technically theft and then copyright infringement. If you however own a copy and then share it, then it's only CF.

No; to use BruceVC's watch example walking into the shop and taking the watch is theft- the owner is deprived of the ownership of the watch and its benefits, including selling it. If on the other hand you duplicated the watch the owner would still own the original and have its benefits no matter how many copies were made, similarly if I copied the Mona Lisa it is not the same as stealing it from the Louvre, though both end up with me having the painting one means that the Louvre still has the painting while the other deprives them of it. If you steal a CD with songs on it you will get arrested and (potentially) charged criminally with theft, if on the other hand you download the songs that make up the CD the shop can still sell the CD and the law broken is copyright infringement which is (at least in small scale cases and most jurisdictions) a civil rather than criminal matter.

Okay I am confused, are you guys saying if I use Torrent to donwloand DA2 and play it with a cracked license then that is not illegal?

[Diagoras]

I am honestly confused

You can argue " but is it illegal to Pirate, is it theft? " In every country in the world the law says it is. So therefore from a legal perspective it is.

 

Really? Because it's my understanding that in every single country in the world, copyright infringement is explicitly not theft. That's why "copyright infringement" and "theft" are two different crimes.

 

Well (and I'm guessing here) if you download a copy that you don't own and then share it, isn't it technically theft and then copyright infringement. If you however own a copy and then share it, then it's only CF.

No; to use BruceVC's watch example walking into the shop and taking the watch is theft- the owner is deprived of the ownership of the watch and its benefits, including selling it. If on the other hand you duplicated the watch the owner would still own the original and have its benefits no matter how many copies were made, similarly if I copied the Mona Lisa it is not the same as stealing it from the Louvre, though both end up with me having the painting one means that the Louvre still has the painting while the other deprives them of it. If you steal a CD with songs on it you will get arrested and (potentially) charged criminally with theft, if on the other hand you download the songs that make up the CD the shop can still sell the CD and the law broken is copyright infringement which is (at least in small scale cases and most jurisdictions) a civil rather than criminal matter.

Okay I am confused, are you guys saying if I use Torrent to donwloand DA2 and play it with a cracked license then that is not illegal?

 

No, he's saying that it's a civil rather than criminal matter.

 

Though I believe large-scale distribution of copyrighted works is criminal, although I'm not aware of criminal penalties being successfully applied to non-commercial distributors.

[BruceVC]

I am honestly confused

You can argue " but is it illegal to Pirate, is it theft? " In every country in the world the law says it is. So therefore from a legal perspective it is.

 

Really? Because it's my understanding that in every single country in the world, copyright infringement is explicitly not theft. That's why "copyright infringement" and "theft" are two different crimes.

 

Well (and I'm guessing here) if you download a copy that you don't own and then share it, isn't it technically theft and then copyright infringement. If you however own a copy and then share it, then it's only CF.

No; to use BruceVC's watch example walking into the shop and taking the watch is theft- the owner is deprived of the ownership of the watch and its benefits, including selling it. If on the other hand you duplicated the watch the owner would still own the original and have its benefits no matter how many copies were made, similarly if I copied the Mona Lisa it is not the same as stealing it from the Louvre, though both end up with me having the painting one means that the Louvre still has the painting while the other deprives them of it. If you steal a CD with songs on it you will get arrested and (potentially) charged criminally with theft, if on the other hand you download the songs that make up the CD the shop can still sell the CD and the law broken is copyright infringement which is (at least in small scale cases and most jurisdictions) a civil rather than criminal matter.

Okay I am confused, are you guys saying if I use Torrent to donwloand DA2 and play it with a cracked license then that is not illegal?

 

No, he's saying that it's a civil rather than criminal matter.

 

Though I believe large-scale distribution of copyrighted works is criminal, although I'm not aware of criminal penalties being successfully applied to non-commercial distributors.

 

Okay, thanks for the explanation. Can you explain in your words the definition of civil and criminal in the context of downloading games and what is legal and whats not.

Edited December 12, 2012 by BruceVC

[Zoraptor]

No one can answer that accurately, as that would depend on jurisdiction, where the offence is taking place and what the local laws say.

 

In general, in most western countries, if you get caught pirating something you'd get taken to civil court and sued by the copyright holder, having been caught by a private investigation of some sort rather than a police one. For a criminal case you'd be investigated by the police and prosecuted by the relevant government agency in a criminal trial. Usually a civil trial has lower burden of proof and cannot result in incarceration, but only monetary damage.

 

It's a civil matter in general because it is the responsibility of the rights' holder to police their IP- rather than the state.

 

To be even more specific, you usually would not get sued for downloading something, but rather for the uploading portion of torrenting, as that is distributing copyrighted materials and it is easier to prove damage.

[BruceVC]

No one can answer that accurately, as that would depend on jurisdiction, where the offence is taking place and what the local laws say.

 

In general, in most western countries, if you get caught pirating something you'd get taken to civil court and sued by the copyright holder, having been caught by a private investigation of some sort rather than a police one. For a criminal case you'd be investigated by the police and prosecuted by the relevant government agency in a criminal trial. Usually a civil trial has lower burden of proof and cannot result in incarceration, but only monetary damage.

 

It's a civil matter in general because it is the responsibility of the rights' holder to police their IP- rather than the state.

 

To be even more specific, you usually would not get sued for downloading something, but rather for the uploading portion of torrenting, as that is distributing copyrighted materials and it is easier to prove damage.

 

Okay thanks, I have to be honest I am still finding the whole thing confusing as it seems its not as clear cut as I first thought. The reason I ask is I work for a software company and we do software audits. If customers are found to have unlicensed versions of software on there desktops they have to pay a fine or pay for the license. But there is no criminal case, yet they are aware that what they are doing is illegal. So in a way this aligns to what you are saying as its the company that owns the software that does the audit and not the South African authorities.

 

But who polices games on your desktop that you haven't payed for?

[Mamoulian War]

Only your conscience

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Only your conscience

 

And, sometimes, the publisher/developer. Cracked Steam games have led to banned accounts, and there's other examples like these gems.

[Mamoulian War]

Only your conscience

 

And, sometimes, the publisher/developer. Cracked Steam games have led to banned accounts, and there's other examples like these gems.

 

the problem with this stuff is that if the code for detecting legality of the software is not programmed properly, lot of honest users will get screwed...

 

there was lot of crying about FADE protection kicking in for legal copies...

 

but because we are on the internet, you never know how many of them were true...

[Mamoulian War]

LOL

 

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

[Hurlshort]

LOL

 

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

 

Yeah HBOGo really needs to offer an independent subscription system from cable/sat.  It is well worth $15 a month, but they basically limit their audience by only offering it to cable subscribers.  Hopefully that changes in the next year or so, but they are afraid of ticking off the cable companies and don't feel they can compete with Netflix digitally. 

[alanschu]

The problem I have with that Oatmeal article is that, while they're correct that HBO is stupid and should just deliver Game of Thrones digitally somewhere in order to prevent fans from just pirating it, is this notion that "because I wanted to watch it and it was convenient, I pirated it."

 

It does little to dissuade me of entitlement issues that many people seem to have IMO.

[Mamoulian War]

NEWSFLASH: There will always be people who feel they are entitled to anything...

 

It is in human nature, which you can not suppress by force, that's why muppets like Robin Hood are considered heroes among people...

 

So try to offer them something more convenient... If half the money which RIAA, MPAA and ESA spent for lobbying in US congress to promote bull**** like SOPA, ACTA, PROTECTIP, DMCA was spent on developing new business models, which would be more convenient for people in the "West", we would have much lower rate of piracy now...

[Spider]

They do deliver it digitally somewhere, just not in the US.

 

They've launched their site HBO Nordic where you can sign up for a Netflix-like digital distribution for the same cost as Netflix would charge. So a subscription fee of about $10-12 I think a month. And all shows are available within 24 hours of their american launch, with Swedish subtitles (or Norwegian, or Danish).

 

That's a very good way of combatting piracy. Though people are complaining that if you sign up for the digital service you'll have to sign up for an entire year, something Netflix apparently doesn't force you to do.

[Mamoulian War]

Yes, Nordic countries are well know for one of the best approach to adopting new technologies. To bad, most of the countries in the world are like 10 years behind you...

[alanschu]

NEWSFLASH: There will always be people who feel they are entitled to anything...

 

So?  Doesn't mean they're justified in doing it simply because they can.

 

If your point is that there'll always be people that are pretty much slaves to their desires, it's kind of a statement of the obvious.

Edited February 28, 2013 by alanschu

[alanschu]

 

They do deliver it digitally somewhere, just not in the US.

 

They've launched their site HBO Nordic where you can sign up for a Netflix-like digital distribution for the same cost as Netflix would charge. So a subscription fee of about $10-12 I think a month. And all shows are available within 24 hours of their american launch, with Swedish subtitles (or Norwegian, or Danish).

 

That's interesting.  Is that because of the greater prevalence of high speed in those countries?  I wonder if there are any (bogus) legal restrictions that may be affecting things as well (I dislike the CRTC that affects how much US content can be shown in Canada)

[Malcador]

The problem I have with that Oatmeal article is that, while they're correct that HBO is stupid and should just deliver Game of Thrones digitally somewhere in order to prevent fans from just pirating it, is this notion that "because I wanted to watch it and it was convenient, I pirated it."

 

It does little to dissuade me of entitlement issues that many people seem to have IMO.

Well, it would cut down on the pirating at least for casual folk - debatable what fraction they would be - who'd end up buying the DVDs in the end like my coworkers (asked them why they don't just save the files but apparently it's not the same or some silliness ).

 

But then not everyone is a saint like folk here.

[alanschu]

No, I understand that HBO should have released it (I think it's stupid that they didn't), because it certainly won't push people to pirate it.

 

The problem I have with the Oatmeal's conclusion was that it was basically "I do want to watch it, so I will."

 

 

I actually dislike this aspect of humanity, as pervasive as it may be.  While I think HBO was stupid in how they distributed it, I also respect a company's decision to make their own decisions.  That Game of Thrones wasn't available for me to watch meant I... watched something else!

[Hurlshort]

 

They do deliver it digitally somewhere, just not in the US.

 

They've launched their site HBO Nordic where you can sign up for a Netflix-like digital distribution for the same cost as Netflix would charge. So a subscription fee of about $10-12 I think a month. And all shows are available within 24 hours of their american launch, with Swedish subtitles (or Norwegian, or Danish).

 

That's interesting.  Is that because of the greater prevalence of high speed in those countries?  I wonder if there are any (bogus) legal restrictions that may be affecting things as well (I dislike the CRTC that affects how much US content can be shown in Canada)

 

It's an issue with HBO and the cable companies.  Basically they don't want to tick off media giants like Comcast by offering an alternative to cable.  So they tie in their streaming service to an actual cable subscription.  The cable companies probably don't mind if they offer it in Nordic countries though.  

 

It's fairly ridiculous how many roadblocks are set up for this stuff, but it's all business and contracts.