Burqa Ban Backlash

[Meshugger]

^Well that's cute and all, but she is still as cool as a christian rocker.

 

True, but I would rather hang out with a Christian rocker than one who dogmatically sticks with the old ways and refuses to compromise on any issue that relates to said religion.

 

Touche

 

But in general, i wouldn't put the situation as a binary choice. People and life are usually more interesting than that.

[Guard Dog]

Yes, the world should be a free-for-all where everyone does whatever they want.

 

A bit much to go from "no telling people how to dress" to "CHAOS!!!!"

 

 

I was responding to Guard Dog's post and didnt feel like editing when your post got in before mine.

Oh I would not suggest a total free for all but it certainly would not hurt to leave people who are not hurting anyone alone.

[Calax]

Really, the French did jack to the Jews in the first place? Really?

 

Yes really. The bit you cited in that was under A) A nazi puppet government (basically) in southern france and B) the Nazi government itself. NOT the french under their own controls.

lol. well, i guess that means the french didn't do anything at all to jews. you're right. referring to "jews in france before the holocaust" makes no sense.

 

just

 

what

"I was just following orders" Is a powerful thing, or have you not seen the Milgram experiment? Nazi's were the ones calling the shots.

[Gromnir]

Just think what a wonderful world this we be if we all just left each other alone? If somone wants to follow the dictates of their religion and wear burqas, or whatever, who cares. Why is this even a point of contention? The biggest problem with the world today is that 50% of the people in it want to control the way the other 50% live their lives. You can't wear burqas, you can't pray in school, you can't own a gun, you can't eat this or drink that or smoke that other thing. You can't build the house you want on the land you bought an paid for, you can't plant this kind of tree because it's non-naitive, you can't buy beer or chicken sandwiches on Sunday. It's fu***ng insane.

 

I mean seriously, banning burqas is right there with banning pit bulls, or gay marriage, or legal gun ownership, or any one of a thousand other sh**ty rules created for the sole purpose of making us all as miserable as the little petty tyrants who made the rules. If you don't like burqas, don't wear one. What the hell do you care if someone else who you don't even know chooses to?

 

is hard to explain to euros that their notions o' freedom of expression and religion is seeming more than a little oppressive to the average American. even rosbjerg, who would appear to be a relative open-minded fellow, suggests that muslims should be willing to Change to fits in with the herd notion o' Acceptable. this nation's revolutionary roots, and the fact that many early Americans were escaping religious oppression themselves, has given Americans a different pov regrading personal freedoms than you sees 'mongst the peoples o' the enlightened western nations. that being said, even here in the US we has failed to recognize that for many/most muslims, religion IS their identity. their entire world-view is filtered through religion-- makes it difficult for westerners on either side o' the pond to understand the seeming endemic paranoia and stubbornness o' the average muslim. here in the US we take it for granted that if Bob, the sheet wearing klansman, and Dave, the hasidic jew, lives next door to each other, they is both having equal rights to express their pov. the fact that Bob and his fellow nutters burns crosses on weekends does not, in and of itself, deprive Dave o' any o' his religious or personal liberty. euros is frequently disturbed by American indifference to the insulting and inflammatory behavior we allows in the name o' First Amendment protections. even so, relatively speaking, Americans and the people o' most western nations ain't all that far apart on these issues. both euros and Americans looks at burqas and recognize that there is an aspect o' the traditional islamic garb that is fundamentally demeaning to women. nevertheless, here in the US we thinks it is best to leave the choice o' wearing the burqa up to the individual rather than to create legislation which would threaten religious freedom. the euro pov is understandable. after all, can a muslim woman who has been raised since birth with muslim values really makes an informed choice? is not an easy question. even in the US we has some hard choices that makes our desire to protect the free exercise o' religion very difficult.

 

assume for a moment that the aforementioned Bob is not a klansman. in our present hypothetical, Bob is a member o' a fringe religion that forbids the use o' modern medical treatments. Bob's son suffers from a disease that is easily cured with a readily available medication. without the medication, Bob's son will die. Bob says "no" to medical treatment for his son. am suspecting that even the average freedom-loving American would pause before jumping to protect Bob's claim o' religious free-exercise. after all, it is Bob's son who is gonna die for Bob's beliefs, not Bob. shouldn't we protect Bob's son until he is old enough to make his own choice? as hard as it is for folks to accept, American courts protect Bob and would stand aside as Bob's child died seeming unnecessary. euros, and even a goodly % o' Americans, would no doubt be disturbed by the death o' Bob's son. a "pointless" death in the name o' religious freedom? again, is not that euros and Americans is so far apart philosophically, but we is far more hesitant to embrace well-intentioned paternalism if it would touch upon free exercise o' religion.

 

 

muslims is... different. everything is religion. is no line drawing possible 'cause all aspects touch 'pon religion. if a preacher in florida burns a koran, then America is allowing islam to be insulted. no school prayer is clear an attack 'pon islam, regardless if is a non-denominational prohibition. depictions o' western values in popular TV shows is also an attack 'pon islam. a scantily clad female movie protagonist who speaks back to men folk in public? clearly is meant to demean islam. sounds paranoid? sure it does, but if everything is somehow 'bout religion, then the paranoia is understandable. in the US and in most western nations, it is assumed that religious and secular interests can be separated. we draws lines different in the US than they does in europe, but we still recognize that some aspects o' every day life is discreet from religion and can be legislated w/o offense to core spiritual values. is different for muslims. is not that westerners is enlightened and that muslims is backwards, but there is a fundamental, and possibly irreconcilable, difference in our perspectives regarding religion.

 

personally we thinks euros trying to legislate burqa dress codes is offensive. even so, we recognize that our espoused notions o' egalitarian religious tolerance is even more offensive to muslims than is the burqa prohibition. kinda ironic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Morgoth]

Europeans enforce Burka dress codes, Americans just bomb them with Predator drones.

 

I wonder who's more intolerant? Or is Grommy telling us Washington isn't even a tiny little bit oppressive? No?

Edited September 24, 2011 by Morgoth

[Gromnir]

Europeans enforce Burka dress codes, Americans just bomb them with Predator drones.

 

I wonder who's more intolerant? Or is Grommy telling us Washington isn't even a tiny little bit oppressive? No?

 

is actual kinda impressive to be seeing how many logic fallacies you can fit in a two line post. *chuckle* even so, your ridiculous statements is actual managing to be examples o' the muslim perspective/paranoia. sure, is not as if the US is bombing folks 'cause they is wearing burqas or reading the koran, but the muslims not see it that way. thanks for illustrating the point.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Morgoth]

So you're provoked by the thought that a couple of Euro countries are banning Burkas, saying this is oppressive, while at the same time you're outright denying that Washington's policy causes hundreds of thousands of dead in the Muslim world?

 

You're either just ignorant and delusional, or Republican.

[Gromnir]

So you're provoked by the thought that a couple of Euro countries are banning Burkas, saying this is oppressive, while at the same time you're outright denying that Washington's policy causes hundreds of thousands of dead in the Muslim world?

 

You're either just ignorant and delusional, or Republican.

 

again with the fallacies. point out where we claimed that the US has not killed people who is muslims. US forces has killed far more believers o' shinto, buddha and christ than they has killed those who follow mohammed, but rare is it claimed that the US harbors some kinda animosity towards the faithful o' the aforementioned. religion has been a relative non-factor leading to most US aggression beyond its own boarders.

 

btw, am personally offended whenever and wherever freedom o' expression is abrogated. is the raison d'

Edited September 24, 2011 by Gromnir

[lord of flies]

muslims is... different. everything is religion. is no line drawing possible 'cause all aspects touch 'pon religion. if a preacher in florida burns a koran, then America is allowing islam to be insulted. no school prayer is clear an attack 'pon islam, regardless if is a non-denominational prohibition. depictions o' western values in popular TV shows is also an attack 'pon islam. a scantily clad female movie protagonist who speaks back to men folk in public? clearly is meant to demean islam. sounds paranoid? sure it does, but if everything is somehow 'bout religion, then the paranoia is understandable. in the US and in most western nations, it is assumed that religious and secular interests can be separated. we draws lines different in the US than they does in europe, but we still recognize that some aspects o' every day life is discreet from religion and can be legislated w/o offense to core spiritual values. is different for muslims. is not that westerners is enlightened and that muslims is backwards, but there is a fundamental, and possibly irreconcilable, difference in our perspectives regarding religion.

Ah yes, the Muslims. I might mention the degree to which many Christians in the USA think much the same thing, but what's the point? Different conceptions of the place of religion in a society are cultural, not intrinsic to that religion. Look at Turkey and the Papal State to see what I mean. Which one feels that their majority religion should have a larger say in the behavior of the state, both foreign and domestic?

"I was just following orders" Is a powerful thing, or have you not seen the Milgram experiment? Nazi's were the ones calling the shots.

"I was just following orders" may be powerful, but it is generally not considered to be an excuse anymore, not since - you guessed it! - WW2.

[Calax]

"I was just following orders" Is a powerful thing, or have you not seen the Milgram experiment? Nazi's were the ones calling the shots.

"I was just following orders" may be powerful, but it is generally not considered to be an excuse anymore, not since - you guessed it! - WW2.

And the incident you harped on was from, you guessed it, WW2.

[Hurlshort]

Europeans enforce Burka dress codes, Americans just bomb them with Predator drones.

 

I wonder who's more intolerant? Or is Grommy telling us Washington isn't even a tiny little bit oppressive? No?

 

This comes across as completely ignorant. Do you understand that there are millions of Muslim Americans who practice their religion peacefully in the US? They wear what they want. Don't buy the propaganda that the US is on some religious crusade. It shows a remarkable lack of knowledge about how the US really is.

 

Even the statement about Washington doesn't make any sense. Washington isn't some single entity that passes down laws to the people.

[Morgoth]

Do you understand that there are millions of Muslim Americans who practice their religion peacefully in the US? They wear what they want.

I haven't heard of cases in the US where the husband forces the wife to stay in house, and if she goes out, she's forced to wear a black tent. Or that certain groups establish Sharia law in a whole district.

 

If you would have to deal with these zealots, the perception of Muslims among American citizens wouldn't be so...peacefully anymore.

[Calax]

Do you understand that there are millions of Muslim Americans who practice their religion peacefully in the US? They wear what they want.

I haven't heard of cases in the US where the husband forces the wife to stay in house, and if she goes out, she's forced to wear a black tent. Or that certain groups establish Sharia law in a whole district.

 

If you would have to deal with these zealots, the perception of Muslims among American citizens wouldn't be so...peacefully anymore.

The Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saint's would like to have a word with you.

[Morgoth]

The Church "zealots" are pretty pleasent compared what Europeans have to deal with imports from some dark corners of this world.

[lord of flies]

And the incident you harped on was from, you guessed it, WW2.

Yes, exactly. "I was just following orders" didn't work for concentration camp guardsmen, why would it work for French authorities under the occupation?

The Church "zealots" are pretty pleasent compared what Europeans have to deal with imports from some dark corners of this world.

Look, I hate the English as much as the next guy, but calling Britain a dark corner of the world might be going a bit too... wait, are you using the term "dark corners of this world" to describe a huge swath of non-white, non-Christian countries as a blanket terminology? And their people as "imports," as though they were literal products that were imported to Europe? I suppose the latter is true historically, but really? Really man? It is the 21st century, let's stop referring to other countries as "dark corners of this world."

[Morgoth]

I'm not applying this to entire countries, that's why I didn't name them.

 

I guess the diffrence is that Muslims emmigrating to the US are usually people who "want to move on" while Muslims emmigrating to Europe "just want to live their life the way they learned in their homeland + subsidied rent and social wellfare checks".

 

The ones who want to change obvioulsy mean less trouble than those who're just convenient.

[HoonDing]

I guess the diffrence is that Muslims emmigrating to the US are usually people who "want to move on" while Muslims emmigrating to Europe "just want to live their life the way they learned in their homeland + subsidied rent and social wellfare checks".

Nah, the difference is there's an ocean in between.

 

The fact that Americans built a wall to keep their southern neighbours out, should tell enough how they would deal with muslims.

[Morgoth]

I wonder if the Canadians one day will have to do the same for their souther neighborn as well...

[Hurlshort]

I guess the diffrence is that Muslims emmigrating to the US are usually people who "want to move on" while Muslims emmigrating to Europe "just want to live their life the way they learned in their homeland + subsidied rent and social wellfare checks".

Nah, the difference is there's an ocean in between.

 

The fact that Americans built a wall to keep their southern neighbours out, should tell enough how they would deal with muslims.

 

Yeah, there actually isn't a wall. There are a few of nutcases that want to build a long wall, and there are a few places where areas are walled off to prevent drug runners easy access, but Mexico is still is a major trade partner and people cross the border in huge numbers every day for work, shopping, and family. They go both ways too.

 

I'm not going to comment on Morgoth's opinion of Muslim immigrants in Europe because I don't live there and have no knowledge of what the people are like. It amazes me how quick some of you guys are to flaunt your ignorance about what happens in the US.

[Gromnir]

I guess the diffrence is that Muslims emmigrating to the US are usually people who "want to move on" while Muslims emmigrating to Europe "just want to live their life the way they learned in their homeland + subsidied rent and social wellfare checks".

Nah, the difference is there's an ocean in between.

 

The fact that Americans built a wall to keep their southern neighbours out, should tell enough how they would deal with muslims.

 

so, the US built a wall to keep southern neighbors out?

 

HA!

 

new mexico gots a spanish-speaking population of over 47%. california and texas is both having more than 1/3 population o' native spanish speakers. the US is the country with the second largest number o' hispanic residents in the world. no other country in the world has as many total immigrants from all countries as the United States has immigrants from Mexico alone. 11% of all living people born in mexico live in the US. if the US gots some kinda pervasive animosity directed at its southern neighbors, they gots a funny way of showing it.

 

border protections (not a wall) is to stem the tide o' ILLEGAL immigration. duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 24, 2011 by Gromnir

[Morgoth]

The Mexicans are used for cheap labor mostly in agrarian, just as Turks were used for cheap labor in construction back in the 50s and 60s.

 

Just don't get too comfortable with the thought they're all going back, 'cause they won't.

[Hurlshort]

The Mexicans are used for cheap labor mostly in agrarian, just as Turks were used for cheap labor in construction back in the 50s and 60s.

 

Just don't get too comfortable with the thought they're all going back, 'cause they won't.

 

Ok, I get it. You are trolling. It was silly of me to take you seriously.

 

I'm going to leave it alone. Oddly enough, I need to head out in a little bit to a Mexican wedding. My nanny's sister is getting married and my daughter is a flower girl.

[Malcador]

I wonder if the Canadians one day will have to do the same for their souther neighborn as well...

 

Pfft, these morons up here are just as bad as Americans, yet cling to some imagined superiority.

[Orogun01]

I guess the diffrence is that Muslims emmigrating to the US are usually people who "want to move on" while Muslims emmigrating to Europe "just want to live their life the way they learned in their homeland + subsidied rent and social wellfare checks".

Nah, the difference is there's an ocean in between.

 

The fact that Americans built a wall to keep their southern neighbours out, should tell enough how they would deal with muslims.

 

so, the US built a wall to keep southern neighbors out?

 

HA!

 

new mexico gots a spanish-speaking population of over 47%. california and texas is both having more than 1/3 population o' native spanish speakers. the US is the country with the second largest number o' hispanic residents in the world. no other country in the world has as many total immigrants from all countries as the United States has immigrants from Mexico alone. 11% of all living people born in mexico live in the US. if the US gots some kinda pervasive animosity directed at its southern neighbors, they gots a funny way of showing it.

 

border protections (not a wall) is to stem the tide o' ILLEGAL immigration. duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

The US is often divided down the middle on it's issues (not to say always) so you get both the support, understanding and bigotry, animosity. But the case with the Mexicans is that they have good geographical location (them bastards) and have settled in. Immigration in the US eventually ends up with communities of a particular ethnicity and the country adopting some of the customs.

[Volourn]

"You don't free slaves by making being a slave illegal. You don't resolve homelessness by fining people who don't shower. You're penalizing a victim for being victimized. It's idiotic."

 

This.