PC control scheme made me lose interest in the game

[topeira]

My absolutely worst fears have come true and i lost nearly all interest in the game.

apparently , while the console control scheme is an action oriental control scheme, the PC mouse+kyb control scheme is the archaic point+click one.

i took the sources from the "previews" thread so i'm sure u've seen the already. nothing new -

 

IGN quote:

"How will the control scheme of a keyboard and mouse behave? Is the game a 'cursor point and click' or a more action oriented WASD + mouse to aim scheme?

[pmp10]

this means i cant move in one direction and shoot\cast in another. this means that i can't aim my melee towards an enemy while im moving in a different direction either.

Aside from the fact that you are jumping to conclusions such solution is definitely a good one.

You shouldn't be able to cast/attack on the run, it's a contrivance of action games.

It may work in Guardian of Light but this is (supposedly) an rpg game.

if i am attacking an enemy on my right and i want to roll to the left i have to stop attacking, aim where i want to roll and then press the roll button or something.

having the need to aim my roll by stopping the attack is annoying and unnecessary. having the need to hold a button just to attack is ALSO unnecessary (the shift button).

Is this even a confirmed part of controls?

There are simple forms of using mouse with hold-down buttons for simple direction input so no - you don't have to aim anywhere else.

sadly i am not going to buy a game with a control scheme from 20 years ago. i hated it with passion in the 90's and i still do. every game controls really well with a more action oriented control scheme and this one can as well.

I get that it's a rant but clearly you have no idea how control schemes 20 years ago looked like.

Back in the days of Cannon Fodder this was a significant improvement on the joystick-only scheme.

That it can be adapted to modern times just by including few hotkeys and a scroll wheel clearly shows how versatile control system it is.

the best solution for this game is really simple and i truly hope that Obsidian will provide it:

an option to rebind the "move" button and the option to move the character with the WASD keys. that's all.

this will provide an alternative control scheme - WASD keys to move the character and the mouse cursor is aiming your attacks.

Then the mouse becomes completely redundant, you will simply aim all your attacks with your characters body.

Only you'll be doing with less precsion that a joypad user.

it worked like a charm in LARA CROFT: and the guardian of light and will work just as good in this game. every co-op same screen action game controls like that.

That's because in that game you use ranged weapons only and projectiles auto-detonate on collision.

You can't do that with melee attacks and aoe spells.

the feel this control scheme is giving the player is the same feel the console players get out of the game. the same tactile ACTION feel.

You can always plug in a joypad into your PC.

[topeira]

that's a detailed response mate. appreciated

 

the control scheme in "spiral knights" is such that when u attack u do not attack in the direction u are walking but in the direction u are aiming the mouse at. as i stated in the first post - "attack in the direction of the mouse". meaning that if there is an enemy on the right than i can walk south (pressing S) and aim the mouse and incoming enemies. once one is close than i click the mouse and attack him. i can aim my attack before i execute it and i dont need to stop walking in order to aim my melee\magic\projectile. i just aim as i walk or roll. once i want to attack i press the attack button. if the character needs to stop in order to fire (as it seems to be the case with DS3) than it will stop, but the aiming process was done while i was rolling and evading. THIS is the huge advantage of the WASD+mouse aiming that the PC should be getting and instead of letting us PC gamers enjoying that we are restricted.

 

 

the thing is - the game looks and feels like an action game on the consoles and it was mainly build for the consoles. it was designed with that control scheme in mind. i am really really afraid that the mouse-to-move control scheme will be disadvantageous compared to the controller and will not be comfortable and reactive enough for the gameplay.

RPGs like diablo or DS1\DS2 had a gameplay that was slow and deliberate to fit the P&C scheme. u didnt need to move or play defensively. u just midlessly clicked on enemies as if they were interface buttons and occasionally drank a potion. no dexterity needed. DS3 looks like it will require the player to dodge and block and fast aim, like an action game, therefor it requires an action oriented control scheme, otherwise the gamer is handicapped.

looking at the Pc footage makes me thing that indeed the player is greatly handicapped with a control scheme that fits OTHER games.

the console footage shows a very fluid game of moving, rolling, casting and attacking. look at the PC footage - it's not like that. it's all - walk. stop. cast. walk. stop. cast. it's rigid. it's slow. it's diablo. it's doesnt resemble the consoles version. it's like the game was aimed at console version and looks great when played onthe consoles yet it feels lacking on the PC.

also the idea of pointing on an enemy to attack him and if u miss him than u walk is also another control choice that is uncomfortable if the enemies move fast. the consoles players can tap X to attack in the desired direction and they will NEVER accidentally move when they want to attack. yet PC gamers might need to aim exactly at an enemy in order to release a magic\slash. i know there is a "attack in place" button but now things just get over complicated while the consoles are having it easy.

 

it's mostly speculations backed up by common sense and footage. all P&C games are slow and rigid and it's fine if the AI and gameplay caters for that kinda game, but DS3 looks different. it looks like it needs a control scheme the mouse\keyboard wont supply.

 

im tired tired tired of my games not getting the features the consoles do. HUNTED: Demon's forge PC doesnt get split screen while consoles do. Portal 2 is the same case (a hack allows split screen but the game doesnt support this). Fable 3 won't have local co-op and DS3 won't have a control scheme that fits it pace. my only solace in my PC gaming hobby is that Skyrim will have mod support and the existence of The witcher 2.

 

 

 

i HAVE a controller but this is a game i wanted to play with my G\F and SHE would get the controller.

Edited April 24, 2011 by topeira

[pmp10]

And I understand the disappointment when the long-awaited game looks to be aimed at completely different system/control scheme/audience but I believe it's a little to early to judge the PC controls.

Between 2 camera positions and customization option (and community mods if need be) we can't really tell for certain until we try it for ourselves.

It's certainly true that mouse controls are recently poorly implemented in general (who's the genius that killed virtual joystick?) but for all we know people on the videos use mouse only to fill spreadsheets.

Control systems and their responsiveness is not something that can be easily judged from gameplay videos so I'll wait for gamer impressions before crying foul.

[topeira]

And I understand the disappointment when the long-awaited game looks to be aimed at completely different system/control scheme/audience but I believe it's a little to early to judge the PC controls.

Between 2 camera positions and customization option (and community mods if need be) we can't really tell for certain until we try it for ourselves.

It's certainly true that mouse controls are recently poorly implemented in general (who's the genius that killed virtual joystick?) but for all we know people on the videos use mouse only to fill spreadsheets.

Control systems and their responsiveness is not something that can be easily judged from gameplay videos so I'll wait for gamer impressions before crying foul.

 

yeah. i know. i dont want to knock it till i try it but im not going to pay 50$ to find out something that looks obvious from the video.

i have pretty little faith in obsedian to include a WASD control over character's movement but actually, that's almost all that's needed. it's pretty simple.

WASD for movement while the cursor aims projectiles and melee. it's been done before. i dont find it too much to ask. but i think obsidian will not go the extra length to implement that. most developers feel like what they created is best and players shouldnt get options since gamers dont know how to decide. like we are all so casual we cant fiddle with anything.

it's not like adding the control scheme coast balacing time.

 

and i mod my games if i want\can. i'd mod this game if it will allow this kind of control scheme but i wont purchase a game based on a guess that a mod will exist.

 

kinda shame, really. i WAS looking forward to DS3. now i will wait to hear ppl's opinion on the PC version to see how it's played. if there's a demo than there is still hope.

[Tigranes]

-> Whether we can do WASD or whatnot isn't confirmed either way yet, I don't mind either way but hopefully there will be some options. It's perfectly possible to accommodate both WASD & point/click, as you say - depends on if there's enough developer time for them to fit something like that in.

-> Point & click isn't 'archaic' - you don't like it and you have your reasons, but it certainly has its advantages. (Not to mention we didn't even have point and click 20 years ago, really).

-> You can always use 2 controllers, if you've got 2.

[topeira]

of course im aware that nothings is certain but since when asked, the devs replied with "its a point and click" and not "we have both".

P&C has advantages over WASD keys of course, but it kinda depends on the type of game, the AI and what the player needs to do in order to enjoy the challenge. i have pretty little hopes for an implementation of both mechanics (WASD and P&C) since i dont think obsidian thinks ppl want both options.

nothing to be done, than, but wait and see when the game is released in 2 months time.

 

and i wont buy another controller i just spent 750$ on a 42 inch TV to go next to my bed kinda ran out of luxury money here plus, the control scheme i was expecting had advantages over a controller so even a controller won't make me feel like i got what i was hoping for. perhaps im spoiled by how well small indie companies do things with such grace and care compared to full fledged AA titles. i'll accept such an accusation.

[Pidesco]

Considering that the game allows gamepad and K+M controls on the PC, and that key mappings should be customizable, I'll be very surprised if WASD isn't an option.

[topeira]

Considering that the game allows gamepad and K+M controls on the PC, and that key mappings should be customizable, I'll be very surprised if WASD isn't an option.

 

i wouldnt, seeing as MAGICKA doesnt have such an option.... but magicka benefits quit a lot from it's current control scheme.

developers that omit important content on multi-platform games no longer suprise me. seeing how CRYSIS 2 doesnt have graphical settings was pretty impressive and if THAT happened than no WASD keys is not far fetched at all.

[Wombat]

Oh...I remembered that I "suggested" something like this since there are still quite a lot of C&P fans around especially in these fora boards (yea, I know it's getting old) and someone pointed out that the designers gathered the thread. What I was worried at that time was that they might not be able to make C&P scheme feel natural enough but, watching the video, it seems to be quite smooth. And personally, I'm bit surprised to see that someone on PC hates it. In fact, even Gamespot shows disappointment in the shift from Dragon Age to Dragon Age 2. From the bad section:

Combat is much less tactical.

Blizzard's Starcraft II was also a hit, too.

 

That said, I understand taste differs. In fact, I like WASD scheme in a certain context, too. However, if I manage a "party", I'd like to have C&P scheme, personally. What I "suggested" was both. When I'd like to focus on a single character, I'd like to have WASD or something like that even through game pad, leaving the control of the other characters to AI or the other players, while I'd like to have C&P, dealing with more tactical game-play with a "party." IIRC, this hasn't been done by any other game. However, I thought this could be possible when I was reading earlier info on this game. I know Obsidian's reputation for game-play is not so good but, this time around, they are doing this on their home-brew engine. I hope they will be successful and it won't be too late for someone like the OP to stay away till some reviews come up. It won't hurt when you try to use your time more efficiently. Just two coppers.

[LadyCrimson]

also the idea of pointing on an enemy to attack him and if u miss him than u walk is also another control choice that is uncomfortable if the enemies move fast.

That is the one thing that's always annoyed me about point & click as well. Overall I don't mind P&C for certain types of games, but trying to click on an enemy and ending up running towards them instead is ALWAYS aggravating.

 

Then the mouse becomes completely redundant, you will simply aim all your attacks with your characters body.

I'm not clear on how WASD to move your chr. & using the mouse to aim/cast spells on enemies makes the mouse redundant. You can't cast a spell or fine-control aim using the WASD keys, thus the mouse is necessary. How is that different from, say, FNV where you use the WASD keys to move but mouse to swivel aim/sight direction and mouse buttons to fire weapon?

Edited April 24, 2011 by LadyCrimson

[Wombat]

also the idea of pointing on an enemy to attack him and if u miss him than u walk is also another control choice that is uncomfortable if the enemies move fast.

That is the one thing that's always annoyed me about point & click as well. Overall I don't mind P&C for certain types of games, but trying to click on an enemy and ending up running towards them instead is ALWAYS aggravating.

Well, this depends on the scheme. I don't know about Diablo or something like that but if I'm capable of controlling whole the team, I'd assign such opponents to ranged/magic characters while let the melee charas prevent the opponents in question attacking them directly. This is, of course, about infinity engine style, though.

[Lord Elvewyn]

My absolutely worst fears have come true and i lost nearly all interest in the game.

apparently , while the console control scheme is an action oriental control scheme, the PC mouse+kyb control scheme is the archaic point+click one.

i took the sources from the "previews" thread so i'm sure u've seen the already. nothing new -

 

IGN quote:

"How will the control scheme of a keyboard and mouse behave? Is the game a 'cursor point and click' or a more action oriented WASD + mouse to aim scheme?

[topeira]

Minor correction. There's no practical reason why P&C schemes have to preclude shooting while moving. I'm pretty sure C&C allowed for it, and that's an old strategy game!

 

The P&C system is probably one of the few DS legacy elements, but it's not enough to my mind.

 

C&C is a strategy game. not an action game. there is no sense of direct control over any specific character on the battlefield. in games like this there needs to be a way to command a unit and let it do it's thing without player control. action games are trying to give the player as much control over his character and actually force him to be precise and good at controlling his character.

even though it's supposed to be a RPG, DS3 looks to require the player to have good control over his character therefore should provide responsive and accurate way of controlling the character.

not only that i find P&C anywhere nearly as accurate and responsive as the control scheme i assumed it will require but the fact that u CAN play the game with a P&C control scheme makes me believe that , indeed, the requirements from the player are pretty low.

 

in other words - a game that lets me beat it with only a mouse is not a game i think i want to play. :\ here's hoping for a demo that will let me test it for myself.

[Tigranes]

Diablo 2 required the player to have very good control of his character, but worked very well with point & click.

 

P&C isn't inherently less demanding of the player or less accurate / responsive - it is different though. For one thing, I'm not sure how the dodge/roll stuff will work in a P&C scheme, if we don't have a WASD option. Gonna wait and see for that,though I do have a controller.

 

Edit: If DS3 abilities often involve using larger areas/distances for abilities, for example, then P&C makes sense - AOE abilities, teleporting, and all that. Or, it may be that you actually need to use your left hand a lot for hotkeys and switching between various abilities - whereas in a WASD + Mouse setup you tend to use a smaller array of abilities.

[topeira]

the point is that P&C is not great in games where u need to always move and attack. the amount of control u need in diablo styled games is significantly less demanding since moving is not that important. especially with melee characters. u just stand there and click on enemies as they hit you. in diablo styled games they is barely any defensive strategy but take hits and chug potions. in action games there is a huge emphasis to constantly move and avoid damage and block.

 

P&C is great if u needed to chose from a large array of abilities. i agree. however we already know that there are about 2 abilities for every stance.

i figure u'd need 3 keys for 3 stances, 2 keys for each ability, a block\roll button and an attack button. that's mainly it. it all fits into the controller so if it fits into a controller than it would easy fit a WASD scheme.

i assumed it'll be -

WASD for movement.

Left click - ability one

Right click - ability two

Space - block\roll

1, 2, 3 - switch stances

that'd make the most sense.

 

with a P&C i assume that rolling will be done by holding BLOCK and clickig the ground somewhere.

 

thinking about needing to use the mouse to aim my dodges (that should be really quick to avoid being hit if an enemy already started hit attacking animation) or pressing TWO buttons to attack (shift+l.click) or trying to find my cursor in order to move amidst the tons of particle effects and chaos this game has, it all makes me really pessimistic about how the game is played and how fun it'll be for me.

Edited April 28, 2011 by topeira

[Sylvius the Mad]

this basically means that the game will probably feel like an action game on the consoles while it will feel like a strategy game on the PC .

In my book, that's good news. Anything that brings the gameplay closer to DS1 is a step in the right direction (I think even DS2 screwed it up).

[Humodour]

I hope to god it is point and click and not WASD.

[topeira]

I hope to god it is point and click and not WASD.

 

the scheme is DEFINITLY point and click as the PC video shows. u dont have to worry.

i just want another options. it's unlikely but that'd make everyone happy.

[Humodour]

Well, from memory KOTOR and NWN2 had both options, so you're probably in luck.

[Wrath of Dagon]

KOTOR did not have point and click, unless you were moving towards a targettable object.

[Lord Elvewyn]

the point is that P&C is not great in games where u need to always move and attack. the amount of control u need in diablo styled games is significantly less demanding since moving is not that important. especially with melee characters. u just stand there and click on enemies as they hit you. in diablo styled games they is barely any defensive strategy but take hits and chug potions. in action games there is a huge emphasis to constantly move and avoid damage and block.

 

P&C is great if u needed to chose from a large array of abilities. i agree. however we already know that there are about 2 abilities for every stance.

i figure u'd need 3 keys for 3 stances, 2 keys for each ability, a block\roll button and an attack button. that's mainly it. it all fits into the controller so if it fits into a controller than it would easy fit a WASD scheme.

i assumed it'll be -

WASD for movement.

Left click - ability one

Right click - ability two

Space - block\roll

1, 2, 3 - switch stances

that'd make the most sense.

 

with a P&C i assume that rolling will be done by holding BLOCK and clickig the ground somewhere.

 

thinking about needing to use the mouse to aim my dodges (that should be really quick to avoid being hit if an enemy already started hit attacking animation) or pressing TWO buttons to attack (shift+l.click) or trying to find my cursor in order to move amidst the tons of particle effects and chaos this game has, it all makes me really pessimistic about how the game is played and how fun it'll be for me.

 

The problem I see with this is it assumes only two abilities. Are you positive about this? With DS1 there was 1 melee slot, 1 ranged slot, and 2 spell slots. DS2 had additional spell slots, at least 2 autocast. Both had extensive spellbooks with selectable options, though the drop down menu was slow. While I've no issue with pruning this to only what's relevant it seems to me that Reinhart at least should potentially have more than two attacks to use at the same time, after all he's supposed to be some sort of wizard. I'd suggest right mouse as abilty\attack with ~,1,2,3,...,0,-,= as action selection. Perhaps / for stance switching instead?

 

There's also the issue of companion interactions. Are they a totally independant entity or can you give them orders - move their, attack them, etc? To steal ME2 controls, perhaps Q&E and given there's no need to reload guns R for the final companion.

 

Any other commands required? No potions so H&M aren't required. Oh what about Tab for the map?

 

I don't have any issue with the P&C, it's a rare positive for me, but like you I've hit pessimistic and beyond. I'll keep watching\posting for curiosity sake but ...

[hopfrog16]

the point is that P&C is not great in games where u need to always move and attack. the amount of control u need in diablo styled games is significantly less demanding since moving is not that important. especially with melee characters. u just stand there and click on enemies as they hit you. in diablo styled games they is barely any defensive strategy but take hits and chug potions. in action games there is a huge emphasis to constantly move and avoid damage and block.

 

P&C is great if u needed to chose from a large array of abilities. i agree. however we already know that there are about 2 abilities for every stance.

i figure u'd need 3 keys for 3 stances, 2 keys for each ability, a block\roll button and an attack button. that's mainly it. it all fits into the controller so if it fits into a controller than it would easy fit a WASD scheme.

i assumed it'll be -

WASD for movement.

Left click - ability one

Right click - ability two

Space - block\roll

1, 2, 3 - switch stances

that'd make the most sense.

 

with a P&C i assume that rolling will be done by holding BLOCK and clickig the ground somewhere.

 

thinking about needing to use the mouse to aim my dodges (that should be really quick to avoid being hit if an enemy already started hit attacking animation) or pressing TWO buttons to attack (shift+l.click) or trying to find my cursor in order to move amidst the tons of particle effects and chaos this game has, it all makes me really pessimistic about how the game is played and how fun it'll be for me.

 

The problem I see with this is it assumes only two abilities. Are you positive about this? With DS1 there was 1 melee slot, 1 ranged slot, and 2 spell slots. DS2 had additional spell slots, at least 2 autocast. Both had extensive spellbooks with selectable options, though the drop down menu was slow. While I've no issue with pruning this to only what's relevant it seems to me that Reinhart at least should potentially have more than two attacks to use at the same time, after all he's supposed to be some sort of wizard. I'd suggest right mouse as abilty\attack with ~,1,2,3,...,0,-,= as action selection. Perhaps / for stance switching instead?

 

There's also the issue of companion interactions. Are they a totally independant entity or can you give them orders - move their, attack them, etc? To steal ME2 controls, perhaps Q&E and given there's no need to reload guns R for the final companion.

 

Any other commands required? No potions so H&M aren't required. Oh what about Tab for the map?

 

I don't have any issue with the P&C, it's a rare positive for me, but like you I've hit pessimistic and beyond. I'll keep watching\posting for curiosity sake but ...

 

I thought each stance had 3 abilities, not 2. it seems to me what would make sense would be that you use left clicks for normal attacks/moving, and right clicks for special attacks. You could then press 1-3 (or whatever keys you assign) to switch between the abilities for each stance. Using they keyboard to dodge (which you have to do in defensive stance, at least on console) makes the most sense to me, but I guess you could do it with a button + left click for direction. as for switching stances.. Tilde? I don't know... It all seems pretty damn busy for a keyboard/mouse control scheme. I would rather just plug in the controller, heh.

[topeira]

first of all i hate it when ppl compare DS3 to DS1 and DS2. these games are so vastly different that there is very very little reasons to compare them. DS1 and DS2 are irrelevant.

 

i think that i can "work" with a P&C control scheme if moving and attacking is separate. i dont want the need to either press 2 keys to unleash and attack or point exactly at an enemy when all i want is for my character to attack UP or LEFT. if it was "left click to walk in the direction of the mouse" and "right click to attack in the direction of the mouse" than maybe it was possible to quickly joggle attacks and movement, which is the biggest issue with P&C schemes.

while block (and hold block and move to roll) can be another key. maybe the spacebar.

 

also im not sure if there are 3 abilities or 2. having them bind to keys is also an option.

 

personally i have a mouse with 4 buttons on it so everything that is related to attacking will be binded to that, but i am just worried that movement and attack will be both left mouse button. movement and attacking should be seperate in games and this is how it works best. P&C is nice when u gave a game that doesnt require a lot of fast movement to avoid damage or defensive skills and timing.

[WorstUsernameEver]

To be honest, I kind of agree with topeira on this one. Point and click sounds appropriate for a Diablo like that keeps the gameplay similar enough to Diablo.. but this seems like it will feel a lot more like a mix between a beat'em up, an action game and a diablo-like so the point & click scheme might not be optimal.

Early feedback on it we've got so far (granted, they've surely polished it up since that build) is that the game is more difficult with m&kb.. which I assume wasn't intended.