Attack on UN staff, Afghan

[Oblarg]

Yes, but when those very afghanis are claiming the deaths were due to the burning of a quran, that should be irrelevant, right?

 

I'd probably feel more sympathy for them if they'd just come out and say "we're fed up with our country being ****ed over by foreign powers and decided to vent our anger."

*shrug*

 

Why did WW1 start? Why did the Tunisian revolution start?

 

Fair enough - I'm certainly not arguing that the book burning was the true cause of the slaughter, but simply that it would do a lot more for their legitimacy if they didn't feel the need to mask reasonable causes behind utterly absurd ones. Then again, they're probably not doing it consciously, which leads back to the somewhat scary fact that many people in that part of the world, on some level, feel that the burning of a holy book can justify killings.

[Walsingham]

Hey guys, just chiming in to make a point that no one seems to have: did you notice that these Afghanistanis attacked a compound owned by an occupying foreign power?

 

The idea that the UN is "neutral" or "civilian" in the War in Afghanistan is a blatant absurdity.

 

 

As ever, your humanitarian credentials shine through... Of course as an avowed fan of people like the Shining Path you would be perfectly happy to see civilians murdered, since there are no sidelines in the glorious revolution.

 

Speaking of which, how have you found the experience of risking your neck in the Arab Spring? Too many term papers to spare the time?

[lord of flies]

As ever, your humanitarian credentials shine through...

The UN is not a humanitarian organization any more than the US Army is you idiot.

Speaking of which, how have you found the experience of risking your neck in the Arab Spring? Too many term papers to spare the time?

Honestly, posts like these make me wonder, do you even know what a rational argument looks like?

[213374U]

That's a pretty big jump from my statement. My point is more along the lines that extremism will exist with or without organized religion.

Oh, I thought that's exactly what you (and GD) meant with your previous remark about starting a country where religion is banned. And I still do, because otherwise the comment doesn't make any sense. The Soviets can be accused of many things, but you'll be hard pressed to find examples of extremism, especially the violent sort. Coincidentally, the Soviet Union had one of the best education systems ever.

 

And I'm sorry but I can't accept that people will be extremists just the same with or without religious figures to direct them - there aren't many things in life that can claim sovereignty over men the way religion does. Without that, what would they be extremists of, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and go on McD's personnel killing sprees? Ethnic differences are often rooted in religious ones, though not always. Politics are always a source of friction but unfortunately it doesn't look like we can get rid of that just yet. Gorth summarized it well enough so I'll leave it at that.

 

 

I know a lot of folks like to play the enlightened card and look at religion as a silly and dated construct, but whatever your beliefs are, in the real world religion is huge and shouldn't be dismissed easily. It has been a part of every human society in recorded history.

That's funny because the enlightened card is precisely the one played by religious people to dismiss those who don't swallow their mystical mumbo-jumbo. They have been "touched", graced with the gift of "faith", isn't that nice. Religion is anything but silly. It took several millenia and the invention of mass media to find a similarly effective control device to direct people.

 

It's not really about what I believe, it's about looking at the record, and looking at the purpose. Religions, and the moral codes they push are meant to -or should- be deeply personal things, and I don't see anything wrong with that. So why the need for central figures to coordinate and unify the inner lives of people? Clearly, so the baser responses of the human psyche can be made to surface and harnessed. There's no other explanation for the need of an intermediary between me and "God".

 

As an aside, you may not want to cite tradition to lend weight to your arguments too much - it can be used to support any number of nasty things, from slavery to the death penalty.

Edited April 4, 2011 by 213374U

[obyknven]

http://rt.com/politics/press/rossijskaya-g...braithwaite/en/

 

Sir Rodric Braithwaite is a member of the British elite. He has an impressive track record: a high-ranking diplomat, UK Ambassador to Moscow (1988-1992), advisor to the prime minister, head of the Joint Information Services Committee (intelligence)

[Hurlshort]

That's a pretty big jump from my statement. My point is more along the lines that extremism will exist with or without organized religion.

Oh, I thought that's exactly what you (and GD) meant with your previous remark about starting a country where religion is banned. And I still do, because otherwise the comment doesn't make any sense. The Soviets can be accused of many things, but you'll be hard pressed to find examples of extremism, especially the violent sort. Coincidentally, the Soviet Union had one of the best education systems ever.

 

 

Here are my examples of extremism in the Soviet Union - Josef Stalin.

[213374U]

Here are my examples of extremism in the Soviet Union - Josef Stalin.

facepalm.jpg

 

I thought you weren't drawing connections between the absence of organized religion and Soviet crimes? I guess you can't help it, but you could at least man up and admit it, instead of being cute and then huffing and puffing when called on it.

 

Yeah, Stalin was as extreme as it gets. The Soviets themselves acknowledged this, and that's why the was likely assassinated and his policies undone to a good degree before his corpse was cold. But it's convenient that you ignored the rest of my post, where I explain that we can't do away with the eternal source of problems that is politics. If you have an alternative, I'd love to hear it. While you're at it, why don't you explain what is the essential role that organized religion fills in running modern, secular countries?

Edited April 4, 2011 by 213374U

[Hurlshort]

Here are my examples of extremism in the Soviet Union - Josef Stalin.

facepalm.jpg

 

I thought you weren't drawing connections between the absence of organized religion and Soviet crimes? I guess you can't help it, but you could at least man up and admit it, instead of being cute and then huffing and puffing when called on it.

 

Yeah, Stalin was as extreme as it gets. The Soviets themselves acknowledged this, and that's why the was likely assassinated and his policies undone to a good degree before his corpse was cold. But it's convenient that you ignored the rest of my post, where I explain that we can't do away with the eternal source of problems that is politics. If you have an alternative, I'd love to hear it. While you're at it, why don't you explain what is the essential role that organized religion fills in running modern, secular countries?

 

What are you talking about? There is no connection between extremism and organized religion in the Soviet Union, that is my entire point. Extremism will exist with or without organized religion. You said I would be hard pressed to find any examples of extremism in the Soviet Union, and then when I pointed out a big one, you seem to be the one getting all huffy and puffy.

 

You are willing to admit that politics are an intrinsic part of society, despite being an eternal source of problems. I am saying that religion is just as intrinsic. I've never actually claimed that this was for the best. It has pros and cons.

 

As for what essential role organized religion plays in a modern secular country, all you need to do is head down to a local soup kitchen or homeless shelter to see its role. There are plenty of churches serving their communities in a positive manner. I've gone over this plenty of times before, so I don't feel the need to go into much greater detail.

[213374U]

What are you talking about? There is no connection between extremism and organized religion in the Soviet Union, that is my entire point. Extremism will exist with or without organized religion. You said I would be hard pressed to find any examples of extremism in the Soviet Union, and then when I pointed out a big one, you seem to be the one getting all huffy and puffy.

Yeah... but this is a discussion about religious extremism if at all, not Stalin. If you weren't suggesting a link, making veiled references to communist dictatorships makes no sense. Stalin was by all accounts a mass murderer and a political extremist, but he was also an anomaly as far as Soviet leaders go. There is no connection between extremism and organized religion in the Soviet Union, because political extremism was largely stifled after Stalin's death, and religion was banned there. What I'm saying is that this attempt to summarize the full 70 years of Soviet history as a reign of extremism by association with Stalin is pretty weak.

 

 

You are willing to admit that politics are an intrinsic part of society, despite being an eternal source of problems. I am saying that religion is just as intrinsic.

No. I said politics are necessary as well as intrinsic, because they are a part of the social mechanisms by which anything larger than a family is run. I also said I'd love to hear any suggestions about a world without politics. You try to put this necessity at the same level as religion, but you completely fail to substantiate that argument, other than by appeal to the tried and failed argument of social inertia and tradition.

 

 

As for what essential role organized religion plays in a modern secular country, all you need to do is head down to a local soup kitchen or homeless shelter to see its role. There are plenty of churches serving their communities in a positive manner.

You mean that there are no secular organizations running charities where you live? How is charity and social work a monopoly of religious organizations? Hey, madrasahs are both religious and educational institutions - therefore, organized religion is necessary to run the educational system, right?

[Walsingham]

Numbers, the KGB didn't pack up its bags as soon as Uncle Joe turned up his toes. You know that. I'm confused by your insistence that violence wasn't meted out to the 'unbelievers' in communism.

 

If Soviet Russia doesn't float your boat, how about violence to Vietnamese christians by their communist party, or across the border you have the fabulous bone-flecked expanse of Cambodia.

 

If this is all too communist centric for you how about the mfekanein Southern Africa, where the Zulus biffed just about everyone pretty much solely because Shaka had a small undercarriage.

[obyknven]

In the USA today there are more than prisoners, than in Stalin camps.

USSR (1938) peak of "mass unwarranted repressions" - 1881570.

For example, in modern Russia there are 877600 prisoners.

In USA there are 2310984 prisoners now. Without any Stalin extremism lol

Edited April 7, 2011 by obyknven

[Walsingham]

Obyknevn is not Lord of Flies. Oh no.

[Hurlshort]

In the USA today there are more than prisoners, than in Stalin camps.

USSR (1938) peak of "mass unwarranted repressions" - 1881570.

For example, in modern Russia there are 877600 prisoners.

In USA there are 2310984 prisoners now. Without any Stalin extremism lol

 

 

Good one obyknven! For a second I was like, wait, is he serious? And then I was like, ah, he got me! What a kidder

[lord of flies]

 

Good one obyknven! For a second I was like, wait, is he serious? And then I was like, ah, he got me! What a kidder

It's true though. The US Prison and Jail population totals 2,284,913 (US DOJ), while internal Soviet documents show that there were only 1-2M people inside the GULAG at any given time (see here).

[obyknven]

...The US Prison and Jail population totals 2,284,913 (US DOJ)...

2,284,913 + population CIA secret foreign prison network.

[Calax]

Then let's increase the soviet number by all those people who were shipped off into a mass grave or tossed into a non-USSR prison?

 

And the airmen that they supposedly still have from Vietnam?

 

[HoonDing]

For example, in modern Russia there are 877600 prisoners.

In USA there are 2310984 prisoners now. Without any Stalin extremism lol

Russian population: 142,905,200

 

US population: 308,745,538

[Walsingham]

 

Good one obyknven! For a second I was like, wait, is he serious? And then I was like, ah, he got me! What a kidder

It's true though. The US Prison and Jail population totals 2,284,913 (US DOJ), while internal Soviet documents show that there were only 1-2M people inside the GULAG at any given time (see here).

 

It would probably help if you responded to 'her' posts using 'her' account. Little tip on the old disguise business there.

[obyknven]

 

Good one obyknven! For a second I was like, wait, is he serious? And then I was like, ah, he got me! What a kidder

It's true though. The US Prison and Jail population totals 2,284,913 (US DOJ), while internal Soviet documents show that there were only 1-2M people inside the GULAG at any given time (see here).

 

It would probably help if you responded to 'her' posts using 'her' account. Little tip on the old disguise business there.

[Walsingham]

Notice him? I AM him!

[Meshugger]

In the USA today there are more than prisoners, than in Stalin camps.

USSR (1938) peak of "mass unwarranted repressions" - 1881570.

For example, in modern Russia there are 877600 prisoners.

In USA there are 2310984 prisoners now. Without any Stalin extremism lol

 

Did you happen to draw this? Linky

[Hurlshort]

I enjoy pointless statistics as much as the next guy. What were we discussing again?

[Rosbjerg]

I enjoy pointless statistics as much as the next guy. What were we discussing again?

 

57% don't care.

 

and that note - let's get back on topic.