Libya

[Zoraptor]

Any advance on "it's OK when we do it because we're the good guys" No? Didn't think so.

 

Wasn't expecting anything else, haven't been disappointed.

[Orogun01]

Any advance on "it's OK when we do it because we're the good guys" No? Didn't think so.

 

Wasn't expecting anything else, haven't been disappointed.

Yes, but you weren't informed of them. Now stop fishing for comments.

[obyknven]

Press TV talks with Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, former assistant secretary to US Treasury in Panama City who concisely provides insight as to the larger scope of American hegemonic strategy that seriously risks Russian and Chinese interests.

 

Press TV: There is talk about Washington being advised to arm the revolutionaries in Libya. Do you think this is a good idea?

 

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: They are already arming them. That is what's unique about the Libyan revolt. It's not a peaceful revolt; it's not taking place in the capital; it's an armed revolt from the eastern part of the country. And we know that the CIA is involved on the ground and so they are already armed.

 

Press TV: How do you compare this military intervention to the one in Bahrain?

 

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: We don't want to overthrow the government in Bahrain or in Saudi Arabia where both governments are using violence against protesters because they're our puppets and we have a large naval base in Bahrain.

We want to overthrow Gaddafi and Assad in Syria because we want to clear China and Russia out of the Mediterranean. China has massive energy investments in eastern Libya and is relying on Libya along with Angola and Nigeria for energy needs. This is an American effort to deny resources to China just as Washington and London denied resources to the Japanese in the 1930s.

The interest in the Syria protests, which Wikileaks shows the Americans are behind -- we are interested in that because the Russians have a large naval base in Syria and it gives them a presence in the Mediterranean. So you see that Washington is all for invading against Libya and is putting more and more pressure to intervene in Syria because we want to get rid of the Russians and the Chinese.

We don't have anything to say about the Saudis -- how they treat protesters or anything to say about the violence used against protesters in Bahrain.

 

Press TV: Are you saying the ultimate goal in attacking Libya is because of the oil factor?

 

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: It's not just the oil, it's the fact of China's penetration of Africa and China lining up oil supplies for its energy needs. You may be aware that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has released a report that says that the 'Age of America' is over and that the American economy will be bypassed by China in five years and then the US will become the second largest economy rather than first. So one of the things Washington is trying to do is to block; to use its superior military and strategic capabilities at this time to block China's acquisition of resources in order to make the development of the Chinese economy slow down.

This is a major reason why the CIA has been active in eastern Libya and it's the reason protests broke out in the east not in the capital like in the other Arab countries and it's the reasons it's armed.

 

Press TV: Do you think Libya's diplomatic isolation was the main reason for this military intervention?

 

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: I don't think it was the main reason. The main reason I think was to evict China from Libya, which is what is happening. The Chinese had 30,000 people there and they've had to evacuate 29,000 of them.

 

It's also payback to Gaddafi for refusing to join the US Africa Command (AfriComm). It became operative in 2008 and was the American response to China's penetration of Africa; we created a military response to that and Gaddafi refused to participate -- he said it was an act of imperialism trying to purchase an entire continent.

And I think the third reason is that Gaddafi in Libya controls an important part of the Mediterranean coast; as does Syria.

So I think those two countries are just in the way of American hegemony in the Mediterranean and certainly the Americans don't want a powerful Russian fleet stationed there and they certainly don't want China drawing energy resources.

Washington was caught off guard by the outbreaks of protests in Tunisia and Egypt, but quickly learned that they could use and hide behind Arab protests to evict Russia and China without a direct confrontation, they wouldn't want that, so they've engineered these protests.

We know for a fact that the CIA has been stirring discord in eastern Libya for some time, this is a known fact. And the release of Wikileaks cables show that the Americans are involved in stirring up unrest in Syria.

We didn't stir up unrest in Egypt or Bahrain or Tunisia or Saudi Arabia. We probably are responsible for the unrest in Yemen because we were using drones and strikes against various tribal elements.

So, that is the big difference that the Syrian and Libya affairs have American hands in them, organizing the demonstrations, providing money and so forth. There are always discontented people that can be bought and promises given.

 

Press TV: Drones are now being used in Libya. From where do these drones operate? Technically they cannot fly from Italy because of a shortage of fuel so where do they operate from?

 

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: I don't know -- could be from American naval vessels. I believe the last report about the drones did come from a Navy officer.

I'd like to add something to this conversation. Probably the biggest risk and the one that's being ignored is China's attitude. The Chinese companies are losing hundreds of millions (dollars) from this intervention. They have 50 massive investments there all going down the drain and this is clearly perceived by China as an act against them. They don't have any illusions; they don't read the New York Times or Washington Post and believe all of that crap. So what they see is a move of the Americans against China.

 

Press TV: Are you suggesting that the Americans want to take out China and replace these investments with American companies?

 

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: Or anybody, that's right. And I think the Russians are beginning to perceive that the whole Syrian thing is a move against them and their base there.

So what we're really doing is antagonizing two large countries: China, which has an economy that is probably better than the US because their people have jobs; and the Russians have unlimited nuclear arsenal -- and so we're starting to press very strong countries in a very reckless way. We're behaving in a very reckless and dangerous way.

Once you start this and Russian and China come to the conclusion that the Americans simply cannot be dealt with in any rational way and are determined to somehow subdue them and do them damage, all kinds of escalations can result. This is the real danger and we're risking a major war.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature, saying: Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and to him that sat thereon, it was given that he should take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another, and a great sword was given to him.

[Walsingham]

Any advance on "it's OK when we do it because we're the good guys" No? Didn't think so.

 

Wasn't expecting anything else, haven't been disappointed.

Yes, but you weren't informed of them. Now stop fishing for comments.

 

I thought I was pretty clear. Strategic intent must be factored into "is it OK?" If you zoom in and concentrate on just what people are doing tactically then a surgeon is the same as an axe-murderer, because they both knock people unconscious then cut them open.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Walsingham

[Freedom Fighter]

Oh Qaddafi, in this hour of darkness, come to us and give us comfort. We praise you for your steadfast leadership of the revolution, and your unwavering commitment to world wide Jamahiriya. Praise to the Libyan people, down with internationalist criminals who slander our leader! Jamahiriya now! Jamahiriya forever!

 

You doubt the man who make the sun rise in the sky and brings precious water to our fertile bosom?

 

He fights for the Jamahiriya; the will of the people.

 

Libya is a free nation, the west is enslaved. Brother Qaddafi leads us to a great future of socialism and Islam. He is king of kings, respect his authority.

 

Whats not to understand, Capitalist? Qaddafi reign can be described in two words; outstanding and triumphant. He is unbeaten in military maters, unmatched in philosophical thinking. The western media has lied to you, Brother Qaddafi is a hero and patriot of Jamahiriya politics.

 

It would be justified. He has given them fair warning, they have spit on his sovereignty and challenged the honour of a king. Do you think Qaddafi could act in any other such manner?! Nay friend! Qaddafi is Nebuchadnezzar reborn, Saladin reincarnate. His authority is divine and nothing will hold him back, not even death.

[Humodour]

Oh Qaddafi, in this hour of darkness, come to us and give us comfort. We praise you for your steadfast leadership of the revolution, and your unwavering commitment to world wide Jamahiriya. Praise to the Libyan people, down with internationalist criminals who slander our leader! Jamahiriya now! Jamahiriya forever!

 

You doubt the man who make the sun rise in the sky and brings precious water to our fertile bosom?

 

He fights for the Jamahiriya; the will of the people.

 

Libya is a free nation, the west is enslaved. Brother Qaddafi leads us to a great future of socialism and Islam. He is king of kings, respect his authority.

 

Whats not to understand, Capitalist? Qaddafi reign can be described in two words; outstanding and triumphant. He is unbeaten in military maters, unmatched in philosophical thinking. The western media has lied to you, Brother Qaddafi is a hero and patriot of Jamahiriya politics.

 

It would be justified. He has given them fair warning, they have spit on his sovereignty and challenged the honour of a king. Do you think Qaddafi could act in any other such manner?! Nay friend! Qaddafi is Nebuchadnezzar reborn, Saladin reincarnate. His authority is divine and nothing will hold him back, not even death.

 

Holy ****. This.

[Orogun01]

The worst has come to pass, this it's truly the beginning of the end. LoF has mated and spawned offspring.

[Walsingham]

The worst has come to pass, this it's truly the beginning of the end. LoF has mated and spawned offspring.

 

ROFL. Made people turn to look outside.

[Monte Carlo]

Wow this level of cyber multi-tasking is deeply impressive. I will also concede that it's also fairly amusing.

[Walsingham]

Wow this level of cyber multi-tasking is deeply impressive. I will also concede that it's also fairly amusing.

 

Hiding behind masks is also a sociopathic trait. Because the sociopath hasn't any true personality as such. So is a lack of sympathy.

 

I'm just saying. Can't imagine what made me think of it.

[Freedom Fighter]

One of the Muslim clerics, Nouri Adin al-Mejrab, called on Muslims around the world to avenge the deaths of the 11 clerics with attacks that would kill 1,000 people for each of those killed in Brega. He said the attacks should take place in the countries that have joined in the NATO air campaign, including the United States, Britain, France, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

[Fionavar]

So are you offering this as an FYI, social analysis or a critique of current geo-political-religious relations? Please do offer some context as to your intent, as discussion is always helpful and appropriate in any venue that aspires to appropriate dialogue.

 

F

 

One of the Muslim clerics, Nouri Adin al-Mejrab, called on Muslims around the world to avenge the deaths of the 11 clerics with attacks that would kill 1,000 people for each of those killed in Brega. He said the attacks should take place in the countries that have joined in the NATO air campaign, including the United States, Britain, France, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Gates blasts NATO: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_gates_nato_d...2F0ZXNibGFzdHNu

 

I don't know, isolationism seems pretty appealing just about now.

[Gfted1]

I don't know, isolationism seems pretty appealing just about now.

 

 

*highfive*

 

Id love to see us get out of NATO. Its a tool we no longer need and they are bleeding us dry.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well, since you brought up Chechnya elsewhere a nice explanation of why Chechnya/ Grozny = horrible crime against humanity by bestial russian savages while Iraq/ Fallujah = wonderful restrained terrorism fighting by apple pie eating blue eyed liberators which doesn't rely on some sort of "it's OK that we did it, we're the good guys" as a justification might be in order.

Moral relativism doesn't really apply to this case, we are fighting Jihadists. These men believe with all of their hatred that we are the enemy, they go to superhuman lengths to cause harm, all because of their extremists views. There is no reconcile here, we are may or may not be the good guys. But we sure are the sane ones.

 

Yeah, the bearded men an ocean away whose best weapons are dirty AK's are really a threat to the cut lawns of US suburbia, surrounded by several million US troops. What are they going to do, swim the ocean and hip shoot you to death?

 

Please.

 

Far be it from me to deny the US the rights to pursue its own interests, but it just so happens it sees its interests more or less everywhere these days.

 

Even regular americans are taking a toll having to finance and get killed in interventions that only furthers a select few in the US itself, while the US economy inexplicably sinks even though its still the richest country in the world.

 

Its their voice, which I'm pretty sure would have vetoed every intervention in the last two decades that needs to be heard and have a say in what their elite is doing.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

On a related note, the real threat IMO that comes from the Jihadists and the religious fundamentalism that's sweeping the muslim world is spiritual and ideological.

 

With day to day attacks on Christianity by fanatically secular governments (like the recent banning of the crucifixion in Italian schools) a major hole is being dug in the "hearts and minds" of people and Islam and other ideologies are poised to fill it.

 

If there is indeed a war, you'll lose it from the inside or not at all.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Walsingham]

*facepalm*

 

The US economy isn't "inexplicably" sinking. You just don't understand it.

 

I don't understand why the economy is tanking either. But I do know that it is a complex system interacting with other complex systems, weather, geology, other eocnomies, human culture, in complex ways. The output and function is naturally going to be hard to follow and understand. Equating that to a conspiracy is like a caveman blaming the Gods for lightning.

[Orogun01]

*facepalm*

 

The US economy isn't "inexplicably" sinking. You just don't understand it.

 

I don't understand why the economy is tanking either. But I do know that it is a complex system interacting with other complex systems, weather, geology, other eocnomies, human culture, in complex ways. The output and function is naturally going to be hard to follow and understand. Equating that to a conspiracy is like a caveman blaming the Gods for lightning.

Apparently it was all due to the Bush programs to increase home ownership, lenders signed out on loans that weren't sure returns and after all the defaults profits went down. Companies around wall street that were related to the housing bubble started losing money, after that there were a series of mistakes by the people in charge of said companies and here we are a bailout later. Sorry if it's not to precise, you can google the Bush program and it should take you there.

 

@Emperor/Boo: I wish we were smart enough to protect our interests in the middle east, not only that but smart enough to secure other interests via the Middle East.

[Drowsy Emperor]

*facepalm*

 

The US economy isn't "inexplicably" sinking. You just don't understand it.

 

I don't understand why the economy is tanking either. But I do know that it is a complex system interacting with other complex systems, weather, geology, other eocnomies, human culture, in complex ways. The output and function is naturally going to be hard to follow and understand. Equating that to a conspiracy is like a caveman blaming the Gods for lightning.

 

There you go seeing conspiracies again. Strictly speaking, when I say the economy is "sinking" I'm talking about the lower quality of life for the general population. The rich tend to stay that way. The average Joe in the US doesn't live as well as he should considering how wealthy the country is.

 

I could go at length about the changes in the US economy since the "new deal" and up until the shift to "Reganism" (and Mrs. Thatchers political program) and how I think it presents a gradual shift from a relatively healthy society into a corrupt oligarchy.

The end result was practically the elimination of state from the economy through the process of privatization - giving everything into the hands of a select few extremely rich individuals/corporations and cracking down on anything welfare oriented under the guise of "cutting costs" resulted in the rise of extreme inequality and crippling the state's ability to perform its functions.

 

The ultimate profits of this process went into the pockets of the elite, and this is still an ongoing process.

 

But the point is that political decisions made it so, not the "invisible hand of the market".

[Walsingham]

I also know enough to know that the US Economy's problems don't only come from the housing market.

[Orogun01]

I also know enough to know that the US Economy's problems don't only come from the housing market.

No, but it seem that the housing market it's being heralded as the catalyst for the decline. The situation was precarious before, but it was the difference of an accident to a tragedy.

[Walsingham]

As I've been saying in a few discussions, it doesn't really matter what the trigger is. the entire situation is the problem. But I'm not sure why that's significant.

[Orogun01]

As I've been saying in a few discussions, it doesn't really matter what the trigger is. the entire situation is the problem. But I'm not sure why that's significant.

Because Americans need to point the finger at something while the ship goes down

[Enoch]

Wals is right. Housing gets the blame as the immediate cause (and mis-allocations of resources in housing certainly don't help), but the mechanism of this decline was how ****ed up the financial sector of the economy was (and continues to be). When all your leading financial institutions are A) at 30-1 leverage, B) so intertwined via insurance, contracts, swaps, and other transactions that one failing is likely to bring them all down, and C) making up over 40% of all the reported corporate profits in the country, it really doesn't matter what the cause immediate is. In those circumstances, the next major unanticipated negative event (and there are always major unanticipated negative events-- usually around 1 per decade) is going to be disastrous.

 

There have been forces mis-allocating resources in the American economy for a long time. (To some extent, this is true for any economy. There are always inefficiencies, but they don't always add up to something this bad.) The role of a banking sector in a mostly-free-market economy is to take custody of the accumulated wealth of a society and allocate it to those endeavors that offer the highest likely real rate of return. The portion of that wealth that went into the operation of the banks is essentially a fee paid by the greater economy in exchange for this service. And, for a long time, it was worth it-- superior Western capital-allocation decisions were the major reason why the 'good guys' won the Cold War. Of course, the model does present risks. By putting private bankers in so important a position, the whole system is vulerable if these guys are incompetent or corrupt. This was demonstrated ably by the largely-finance-driven boom-bust cycle that America saw during the 1870-1930 period. But the Depression-era regulatory safeguards actually worked pretty damn well for a couple generations.

 

Starting in roughly the 1980s, though, when the big Wall Street investment banks started going public, the decisionmakers in the financial industry began leaning on the scale a bit-- deciding too often that the endeavor that offered the highest likely real rate of return was ... them! The financial industry as a whole climbed from 4% of GDP (where it had been pretty stable for most of the Postwar period) to 8%. To a certain extent, this was legitimate, as the US was increasingly exporting financial services to developing nations (e.g., bond offerings to fund projects overseas). But a lot of it was mysterious. Investment decisions generally get made based on quarterly reports, stock prices, and other short-term results, and nobody is better than Wall Street at shining up short term results and hiding the downside off the books, in ultra-complicated risk disclosures, or so far into the future that most investors wouldn't notice. And the general tolerance for risk in the financial industry zoomed up. Back in the old partnership days, when the traders were playing with their bosses' money, they were deathly afraid that they would face serious consequences if their bets went bad. They became less careful when faced only with the wrath of anonymous shareholders and wrapped in a newly trader-driven corporate culture that was very protective of their experimentation. As the banks got bigger and more profitable, they exercised more political influence, on both sides of the aisle. The financial sector achieved that rare complete victory in American politics in the '90s-- both parties acknowledged as a matter of course that the logical and philosophical argument that was most favorable to the banks was unquestionably true. As such, many of those Depression-era regulations that had worked pretty well for decades went un-enforced or were rolled back in the '90s and '00s.

 

I'm not one to ascribe to active conspiracy theories, but the financial industry leaders have worked out a way to effectively loot the rest of American society. We didn't have a "sub-prime mortgage crisis"-- we had a "sub-prime generation of financial and political elites" crisis. And, frankly, we're still having one.

 

 

(Aside: The other big mis-allocations of resources in America, besides the financial sector, are the overinvestment in housing and the ridiculously expensive nature of American healthcare. The housing over-investment is pretty simple. There are positive externalities to home ownership, which the government wanted to make real to consumers, but they over-compensated. The tax preference in favor of home ownership is enormous, and it gets bigger and bigger the more you earn and the bigger house you buy. Thus, on the aggregate, American society has too much of its wealth sunk into where it's living, and too little of its wealth invested in, well, making and inventing stuff to keep an economy competitive. The healthcare over-investment, on the other hand, is incredibly complicated. But the end result is clear-- America invests 18% of its economic productivity just in keeping its people healthy enough to do the things that are actually ecnomically productive. Every other modern economy spends less, and most of them manage to get better results.)

Edited June 14, 2011 by Enoch

[Wrath of Dagon]

There was a huge Savings and Loans crisis in the 80's, so it's not like the financial system was so great back then either. It seems like instead of learning our lessons from that, we instead expanded the same principles to the entire financial sector. I don't know why we don't just look at what Canada does with their banks and do the same, I mean I do know but it's a shame that we don't.