Dragon Age II Has the Best Writing since PS:T

[Tale]

The dwarf inheritance quest in DAO was terrible, because you weren't given enough information and couldn't find any to make a rational decision. Also the whole thing was idiotic to the extreme, that's the kind of thing that makes me want to skip any future Bio game. Ulysses is a novel by James Joyce, not the Odyssey by Homer. (disclaimer: I'm not pretending that I read Ulysses).

Actually, that quest did have the information. But not in a way that negates your complaint. There are two merchants you can ask about who they support and they'll tell you (Harrowmont supports the old ways! Bhelen is trying to change things!). That's it. They could have revealed the information better and in more reliable detail.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, I talked to the merchants, I didn't think it was near enough. There were rumours about Bhelen being a murderer, but I didn't find any way to investigate them. Further, one of the quests proved Harrowmont was dishonest, but you had to side with Bhelen first to even get the quest. In the end Bhelen seemed a brutal tyrant that I enabled, but I didn't feel the game gave me enough info to be fair.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Wrath of Dagon

[Tale]

Further, one of the quests proved Harrowmont was dishonest, but you had to side with Bhelen first to even get the quest.

Actually, that was Bhelen lying to you again. The documents were forged.

 

That's the kind of problem I had with the quest. You find out more about the fact that Bhelen is a jackwad and that Harrowmont is a nice guy than you find out about how good or bad they'll be for Orzammar. Which you only get hints at.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Tale

[Wrath of Dagon]

Further, one of the quests proved Harrowmont was dishonest, but you had to side with Bhelen first to even get the quest.

Actually, that was Bhelen lying to you again. The documents were forged.

 

That's the kind of problem I had with the quest. You find out more about the fact that Bhelen is a jackwad and that Harrowmont is a nice guy than you find out about how good or bad they'll be for Orzammar. Which you only get hints at.

No, because I talked to the people Harrowmont made the promises to, and they both confirmed they were promised the same property. Anyway, by then you have to keep working for Bhelen regardless, which is another thing that sucks. I think you can still switch sides at the very end.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Wrath of Dagon

[Tale]

No, because I talked to the people Harrowmont made the promises to, and they both confirmed they were promised the same property.

And if you talked to the Shaper, he reveals that the documents are forged. A deal was made with both houses, but it's only by the forging that it looks like the same deal. It's hard to conceptualize how the heads of the houses would be fooled by documents they should have copies of, but that's the implication.

[Wrath of Dagon]

No, because I talked to the people Harrowmont made the promises to, and they both confirmed they were promised the same property.

And if you talked to the Shaper, he reveals that the documents are forged.

Is the Shaper the guy in the library? I never asked him about that.

A deal was made with both houses, but it's only by the forging that it looks like the same deal. It's hard to conceptualize how the heads of the houses would be fooled by documents they should have copies of, but that's the implication.

Yes, how is it possible they wouldn't recognize the forgery since I showed them both the same documents?

[Monte Carlo]

It's a shame this part of the game wasn't DLC, then you'd have had a large illuminated exclamation mark lighting the way.

[Amentep]

No, because I talked to the people Harrowmont made the promises to, and they both confirmed they were promised the same property.

And if you talked to the Shaper, he reveals that the documents are forged.

Is the Shaper the guy in the library? I never asked him about that.

A deal was made with both houses, but it's only by the forging that it looks like the same deal. It's hard to conceptualize how the heads of the houses would be fooled by documents they should have copies of, but that's the implication.

Yes, how is it possible they wouldn't recognize the forgery since I showed them both the same documents?

 

I believe the idea is that Bhelen's man is presenting the documents filed with the Shaperate, which is supposed to show that while Harrowmount promised the two families two different pieces of land that what he filed in the shaperate gave them both the same piece of land; remember that the Shaperate is supposedly closely related to Harrowmount giving Bhelen an angle to play (the Shaperate even says he's related - but also that he's related to most of the noble families) and the idea is that he's not playing fair with his duty - allowing Harrowmount to snooker other nobles.

 

Also there is a female Dwarf off of the opening dias who will also explain Harrowmount/Bhelen's divide; the argument in the Senate chambers also clues in on some of the basics.

 

For me I felt there was enough information to make an informed decision on.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I believe the idea is that Bhelen's man is presenting the documents filed with the Shaperate, which is supposed to show that while Harrowmount promised the two families two different pieces of land that what he filed in the shaperate gave them both the same piece of land; remember that the Shaperate is supposedly closely related to Harrowmount giving Bhelen an angle to play (the Shaperate even says he's related - but also that he's related to most of the noble families) and the idea is that he's not playing fair with his duty - allowing Harrowmount to snooker other nobles.

 

Also there is a female Dwarf off of the opening dias who will also explain Harrowmount/Bhelen's divide; the argument in the Senate chambers also clues in on some of the basics.

 

For me I felt there was enough information to make an informed decision on.

Unless that's all part of the dwarf origin, I guess I missed all of that somehow. I wasn't even able to get into the Senate chamber until the very end as I recall.

[Gorth]

I believe the idea is that Bhelen's man is presenting the documents filed with the Shaperate, which is supposed to show that while Harrowmount promised the two families two different pieces of land that what he filed in the shaperate gave them both the same piece of land; remember that the Shaperate is supposedly closely related to Harrowmount giving Bhelen an angle to play (the Shaperate even says he's related - but also that he's related to most of the noble families) and the idea is that he's not playing fair with his duty - allowing Harrowmount to snooker other nobles.

 

Also there is a female Dwarf off of the opening dias who will also explain Harrowmount/Bhelen's divide; the argument in the Senate chambers also clues in on some of the basics.

 

For me I felt there was enough information to make an informed decision on.

Unless that's all part of the dwarf origin, I guess I missed all of that somehow. I wasn't even able to get into the Senate chamber until the very end as I recall.

Fuzzy Memory Disclaimer.

 

You get bits and pieces along the way, leaving it up to you to piece the puzzle together. I was left with the impression that Harrowmont was the "conservative" force, being in favour of the caste based, isolationist society, yet looking like the "decent" short term option whereas Bhelen, being in love with a woman below his station is the "anarchist", trying to break down society in it's current form in order to get things the way he wants them, giving the short term impression of a lying, scheming villain. The beauty of it is, that long term and short term impressions aren't always the same. For me the best part of the game and beating the stupid Mage/Templar conflict by several miles

[Tale]

I believe the idea is that Bhelen's man is presenting the documents filed with the Shaperate

No, the Shaperate literally says the documents you are showing him are not the actual documents. Bhelen's man gave you fakes.

 

And when you go back to him, he says he doesn't care. It's a test of loyalty.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Tale

[Orogun01]

I believe the idea is that Bhelen's man is presenting the documents filed with the Shaperate

No, the Shaperate literally says the documents you are showing him are not the actual documents. Bhelen's man gave you fakes.

 

And when you go back to him, he says he doesn't care. It's a test of loyalty.

They are legitimate documents but the dates and territory have been changed to incriminate Harrowmount.

[greylord]

I saw the Bhelen/Harrowmount as a better gray area choice than anything they gave you in DA2.

 

In that, with research you find that it's most likely that Bhelen is a murderer, criminal of sorts, and will be a closed fist hard nosed dictator if he becomes King. His father knew his son was like this, and was completely against his son ever becoming King, which is why he chose Harrowmount instead. He knew Bhelen was short tempered, and would do anything for power, which included killing his own family apparantly. Harrowmount was balanced and fair, and would keep the throne to a high standard.

 

On the flip side, you can see the terrible life that is held for those in the lower castes. It's not like the slavery thing in DA2 with the mages, but they really don't have anything, and most don't have a way to get ahead in life due to the caste system. If you want to do away with that, the ONLY choice is Bhelen...tyrant as he will be. In the long term, perhaps he will destroy the entire caste system and society will rebuild with more equality for all. This has another downside in that it could destroy the dwarven society in the short run with Bhelen going around killing all the nobles he hates or disagree with him, but in the long run giving the lowborn the chance to rise up in society. Harrowmount on the otherhand, would keep the caste system, keep dwarven society pretty steady, and keep things fair...but those born to low caste would continue to live in a path of poverty where they can never get out of such a state.

 

The rebellious side of me chose Bhelen...not because I felt he was the correct choice to be King, or that was the legitimate successor (Harrowmount was), but because I disliked the Caste system enough that I was willing to put an evil tyrant on the throne to do away with it. It even meant that a good dwarf had to die in order for it to occur, and the possible destruction of dwarven society in the next decade...but in the hopes that in the long run the terrible caste system would disappear.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I saw the Bhelen/Harrowmount as a better gray area choice than anything they gave you in DA2.

 

In that, with research you find that it's most likely that Bhelen is a murderer, criminal of sorts, and will be a closed fist hard nosed dictator if he becomes King. His father knew his son was like this, and was completely against his son ever becoming King, which is why he chose Harrowmount instead. He knew Bhelen was short tempered, and would do anything for power, which included killing his own family apparantly. Harrowmount was balanced and fair, and would keep the throne to a high standard.

I want to know where you guys are getting all that info. Bhelen in love with a low caste woman? What? It sounds like somehow I missed a major part of the story, but except not going back to the Shaper, I still have no idea how.

[Tale]

You can find out about his love affair with a lower caste by reading a letter in his room (it's the Dwarf Commoner origin's sister, in fact). You find out he's a murderer by playing the Dwarf Noble origin, since you're his brother and he frames you for the death of the other brother. After first convincing you that the other brother is going to murder you.

 

Basically, the eldest was next in line for the throne. But he was a complete ****, and the nobility actually likes the Dwarf Noble Origin PC better (middle brother). Behlen is the youngest with no real prospect. Bhelen tells the PC that the older brother is plotting to kill him so that he can't threaten his succession. He tries to convince the PC to kill the eldest first. Whether you do agree or not, you end up finding his corpse in the Deep Roads and a couple of lower caste soldiers (obviously working for Bhelen) claim they saw you do it, forcing you into exile.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Tale

[Majek]

Wouldn't Harrowmont also sever any ties with the surface and further isolate the dwarwen society?

[Volourn]

"You find out he's a murderer by playing the Dwarf Noble origin, since you're his brother and he frames you for the death of the other brother. After first convincing you that the other brother is going to murder you."

 

The neat thing is you hear hints/rumours about this even as a non dwarf when in the dwarf city .

[Wrath of Dagon]

You can find out about his love affair with a lower caste by reading a letter in his room (it's the Dwarf Commoner origin's sister, in fact). You find out he's a murderer by playing the Dwarf Noble origin, since you're his brother and he frames you for the death of the other brother. After first convincing you that the other brother is going to murder you.

 

Basically, the eldest was next in line for the throne. But he was a complete ****, and the nobility actually likes the Dwarf Noble Origin PC better (middle brother). Behlen is the youngest with no real prospect. Bhelen tells the PC that the older brother is plotting to kill him so that he can't threaten his succession. He tries to convince the PC to kill the eldest first. Whether you do agree or not, you end up finding his corpse in the Deep Roads and a couple of lower caste soldiers (obviously working for Bhelen) claim they saw you do it, forcing you into exile.

Oh, OK, I think I did read that letter, I just didn't understand it had to do with Bhelen, or at least not how it would motivate him. So it's pretty much what I suspected, with dwarf origin you know what's going on but otherwise the info isn't available for the most part.

[Amentep]

I believe the idea is that Bhelen's man is presenting the documents filed with the Shaperate, which is supposed to show that while Harrowmount promised the two families two different pieces of land that what he filed in the shaperate gave them both the same piece of land; remember that the Shaperate is supposedly closely related to Harrowmount giving Bhelen an angle to play (the Shaperate even says he's related - but also that he's related to most of the noble families) and the idea is that he's not playing fair with his duty - allowing Harrowmount to snooker other nobles.

 

Also there is a female Dwarf off of the opening dias who will also explain Harrowmount/Bhelen's divide; the argument in the Senate chambers also clues in on some of the basics.

 

For me I felt there was enough information to make an informed decision on.

Unless that's all part of the dwarf origin, I guess I missed all of that somehow. I wasn't even able to get into the Senate chamber until the very end as I recall.

 

The female dwarf off the opening dias is there for all origins (in fact it was a Human Noble PC that I first talked to her) but I think she is only there at the very beginning. The Senate Chamber - if you go in it once you'll see Harrowmount/Bhelen supporters arguing and the head of the chamber kicks everyone out (including you). If you do this Bhelen and Harromount's seconds will be easy to find (Harrowmounts will be standing outside the building instead of in Harrowmount's estate).

 

Its possible that if you start some of the quests these things are no longer available.

 

I believe the idea is that Bhelen's man is presenting the documents filed with the Shaperate

No, the Shaperate literally says the documents you are showing him are not the actual documents. Bhelen's man gave you fakes.

 

And when you go back to him, he says he doesn't care. It's a test of loyalty.

 

My point was that Bhelen's second is telling you these are the documents filed in the Shaperate, but they're not; the idea is that Harrowmount filed them, not what he actually filed with the Shaperate. I was trying to address why the two nobles supposedly hoodwinked by Harrowmount would be fooled by the ruse - its because Bhelen supposedly the documents you have are what was really filed with the shaperate, not the deal that was arranged (but of course its all a ruse).