FO: NV (Spoilers)

[Tigranes]

Actually, it isn't a fair complaint at all, because what it boils down to is that you want a very specific ending where you side with X and let Y stay and fight Z and have green eggs and ham for breakfast the next morning.

 

(1) NCR's intentions to annex New Vegas & the Mojave as a whole is very clear throughout most of the game - impossible to miss if you put "150+ hours".

(2) The player might not like the fact that to side with NCR (or with House, or the Legion, for that matter), you have to wipe out the BOS. Guess what, you take the bad with the good. These factions are always going to have some intractable demands and points where they won't budge. The only question is whether it makes sense for them to be so hardassed about this. IMO it makes perfect sense that after what happened with Helios and such, and given the personality of that lady general who gives the quest (very "wipe out the bastards" person), they want the BOS gone. If it was Chief Hanlon in charge of the whole outfit, for instance - no, it wouldn't.

(3) Should you be able to side with Yes Man then still work out a compromise/cohabitation deal with the NCR? I think this is the only complaint in the whole deal that has any merit - ideally you should be able to choose here. It does make sense that after working so hard to fight the Legion, the NCR is not going to take kindly to any upstart suddenly redrawing the map, but then you do have an army of Uber Securitrons with you.

 

I think the factions' motivations, plans and responses are nearly always sensible and with clear notice to the player in FNV, which itself is hard to do.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Actually, it isn't a fair complaint at all, because what it boils down to is that you want a very specific ending where you side with X and let Y stay and fight Z and have green eggs and ham for breakfast the next morning.

 

(1) NCR's intentions to annex New Vegas & the Mojave as a whole is very clear throughout most of the game - impossible to miss if you put "150+ hours".

It was clear, but it's not clear that the issue can't be resolved with a compromise, in fact the abassador specifically talks about trying to improve relations with Mr House and NV and not getting anywhere.

(2) The player might not like the fact that to side with NCR (or with House, or the Legion, for that matter), you have to wipe out the BOS. Guess what, you take the bad with the good. These factions are always going to have some intractable demands and points where they won't budge. The only question is whether it makes sense for them to be so hardassed about this. IMO it makes perfect sense that after what happened with Helios and such, and given the personality of that lady general who gives the quest (very "wipe out the bastards" person), they want the BOS gone. If it was Chief Hanlon in charge of the whole outfit, for instance - no, it wouldn't.

Well, I even tried to appeal to the abassador hoping the poltical branch could overrule her, but of course the game doesn't support anything like that. The point is if you're going to force the player to make a choice, at least fully implement it, let me side with either one, whoever's more reasonable, or let me wash my hands of the whole situation. I'm trying to role play a consistent character, and that's impossible if the game forces me to always betray someone.

As it turns out, you don't have to destroy the BOS, but the game confused me into thinking that you do.

(3) Should you be able to side with Yes Man then still work out a compromise/cohabitation deal with the NCR? I think this is the only complaint in the whole deal that has any merit - ideally you should be able to choose here. It does make sense that after working so hard to fight the Legion, the NCR is not going to take kindly to any upstart suddenly redrawing the map, but then you do have an army of Uber Securitrons with you.

Exactly, we just wiped out the entire Legion Army, which is something NCR hadn't managed to do. And no, it doesn't necessarily make sense, I was the one who defeated the Legion, not them, and I was the one who saved the President. And it's not redrawing the map, it's keeping status quo. Not to mention the Boomers are also my allies, aren't going anywhere, and could unleash a devastating artillery and aerial barrage on the NCR should they try anything.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Tigranes]

I can see where you're coming from about 'fully implementing', but at the same time I believe that the player shouldn't be able to pursue every option out there - that just gives too much power and makes the gameworld a land of puppets. The NV ambassador himself tells you that his post is sort of a dead-end one in the NCR career rung, and the higher ups neither pay much attention to him or expect much from him. Even though his standing will have been improved through your help, I find it unlikelyl that he could persuade the gung ho commander over at the Dam not to take out the BOS.

 

The only way I see the BOS being 'saved' is if their entire questline was much more fleshed out, and, for instance, the leadership disputes can be led to an option where you can arrange an agreement between the two. But then, the BOS themselves make this difficult - I think it's very realistic that almost everyone wants them gone one way or the other because they have a centuries old history of being high and mighty, dangerous, and never really open to negotiation. Would BOS lend their technology in any way to help the NCR? Would they promise to stay out of the NCR's way no matter what?

 

Again, I agree that depending on the variables a Yesman-NCR alliance would have been a a good alternative to have, but to be honest, being pressured to destroy BOS just makes good sense in the setting. When you are forced into actions that don't make sense in the gameworld it's railroading; when you're forced into actions that do make sense it's good storytelling.

[Thorton_AP]

I am confused. I did collaborate with the BoS when siding with the NCR.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If you go and talk to the BoS after NCR tells you to destroy them, it turns out the BoS are willing to aid the NCR. But since NCR told me previously that no compromise is possible, I didn't try that until I already sided with Yes Man.

 

@Tigranes: It's not good storytelling to force the player to commit an evil act either way, especially when it can be easily and logically avoided. That suggestts the player has no agency.

[Thorton_AP]

But he does. You just didn't explore all the options.

 

 

I'd have to play through the Yes Man scenario myself to really see what it's like, but to me it always seemed that as long as the NCR is in the area, they will pose a threat to the autonomy of Las Vegas.

 

I suppose it would have been better to have the player make that compromise with the NCR, but it'd be an interesting ending if it still ended up with a subpar result for Las Vegas in the long run.

[LadyCrimson]

Today on a whim I cleared out The Fort again. The 2 times before, Caesar's tent was a pain with all those guards and their ballistic fists. I don't carry/use mines, so no traps for me...just enter tent, leave tent (they chase you out the door), then a lot of backpedaling, firing, stimpacks etc. One of the few very specific fights where I use stimpacks in mid-combat - 4 or 5 Fists trying to wail on you at once, you take a lot of damage very fast, especially on VeryHard.

 

But tonight I remembered stealthboys. I always forget I have the things and I had 10 of them sitting in my inventory. So this time I popped one. Entered tent, started taking sneak-crit pot-shots at the Guards with my 12.7 pistol. They all ran around like chickens - so funny! Killed a few, and Vulpes run away...he literally ran away and disappeared from the tent, never to be seen again. I don't know if that was a glitch or he's scripted to lose Nerve and run when faced with invisible enemies. lol

 

Anyway, when all but a couple guards and Caesar were left, I exited tent, grabbed a Waiting Boone, went back in & let him have his jollies killing Caesar. Thumbs down you son of a ...!

 

...stealthboys. Yes, I must remember that. Makes the Fort/tent my new fave save/re-load killing-pen - along with the deathclaw area near the Dam - for those 10-20 minutes of daily NV fun. W00t.

Edited December 27, 2010 by LadyCrimson

[Wrath of Dagon]

Stealthboy doesn't work if you try to approach the inner room of Ceasar's tent. All I wanted was to take the book for the Great Khans' quest.

[LadyCrimson]

Oh? *fires up game to test* ...

 

 

....well, I can stealthboy into the inner tent and stand right next to Caesar no problem. He stands up but does nothing, the guards don't see me/do nothing. Were you still neutral with them vs. vilified/hostile, maybe that makes a difference? Or maybe you have to have that quest active/it's the action of actually stealing the book that triggers an anti-stealthboy script (don't have that quest active in my savegame). Interesting.

Edited December 27, 2010 by LadyCrimson

[Wrath of Dagon]

No, I never even got close to the book, it probably had to do with me being villified by then, which is why I tried to use the stealthboy in the first place. Also I have the 360 version, don't know if that makes a difference.

[LadyCrimson]

Well I'm always vilified by the Legion, haha, so that can't be it. But I didn't try the stealthboy in previous versions of the game, this was on patch 1.2. Maybe they changed something.

[Tigranes]

Don't know what happened with you WOD, but stealthboy works with Caesar's tent. It's just that with guards standing right outside both sides of the entrance, it's very difficult to remain hidden even with the stealthboy - maybe a low sneak skill.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, if you get detected, it means it doesn't work. Don't think low stealth skill has anything to do with it, since stealthboy always makes it 100. The first guard near the entrance became alerted but couldn't actually see me. As I got closer to Ceasar I would always get attacked though, but it may depend on the patch as has been mentioned. LC didn't get detected even though she was shooting at the Legion.

[LadyCrimson]

I should probably mention that my 12.7 pistol had a silencer on it, which I believe is why I could shoot & remain undetected. I think if you use a non-silenced weapon they're supposed to be able to locate you from that. Wearing heavy armor increases the odds of being detected too, I think (makes more noise).

 

Since I was in 1st person I couldn't really tell if any of them technically touched me while they were chicken-running around, but supposedly if you connect with someone while stealth-boyed that breaks it as well. You'd think one of them would have run into me since two are almost on top of me when I enter, but I guess not... (edit)my Sneak was around 80 w/out the Stealthboy, but it alone did not suffice).

Edited December 27, 2010 by LadyCrimson

[entrerix]

i'm still not sure I understand Dagons complaint...

 

1. you were upset that you were ordered to kill the BOS by NCR

2. instead of trying to find a way to have the BOS team up with NCR (which is actually possible and is included in the game) you joined up with yes man

3. then when yes man turned out to be a real bastard you got upset about that too? (even though he was programmed at the will of Benny, the most two-faced bastard in the whole game? so it shouldnt have been surprising at all when yes man began making some ... decisions for you)

 

if you loved the BOS so much why didn't you try harder to make them allies with the NCR? I think the only person you should be upset with is yourself for failing your allies, or the character who lied to you and told you that the BOS had to be wiped out. could obsidian have made the game without any characters in it who betray you and/or lie to you? sure, but the game would have been worse for it.

Edited December 27, 2010 by entrerix

[Wrath of Dagon]

i'm still not sure I understand Dagons complaint...

 

1. you were upset that you were ordered to kill the BOS by NCR

I'm not upset by that, that was a valid design decision, I didn't like how that interacted with the end-game though, also see below.

2. instead of trying to find a way to have the BOS team up with NCR (which is actually possible and is included in the game) you joined up with yes man

3. then when yes man turned out to be a real bastard you got upset about that too? (even though he was programmed at the will of Benny, the most two-faced bastard in the whole game? so it shouldnt have been surprising at all when yes man began making some ... decisions for you)

I did try to make an alliance, I just went about it in the wrong way, since the NCR told me no compromise is possible, it generally takes two to come to an agreement. Thus my only option appeared to be to join with Yes Man, who supposedly lets you make your own decisions.

 

if you loved the BOS so much why didn't you try harder to make them allies with the NCR? I think the only person you should be upset with is yourself for failing your allies, or the character who lied to you and told you that the BOS had to be wiped out. could obsidian have made the game without any characters in it who betray you and/or lie to you? sure, but the game would have been worse for it.

Betrayal is not the real problem, the real problem the game assumes that I want the Hoover Dam and independent Vegas, when in reality my motivation was completely different. The way I see it, there should've been 4 logical choices when talking to General Oliver:

 

1) Attack immediately

2) Demand NCR vacate the Hoover Dam and we can part peacefully

3) (my preferred choice) Agree to let NCR keep the Hoover Dam if they let me keep NV

4) Surrender to NCR and let them keep everything

 

It wouldn't have cost them anything to support all 4 choices except may be a couple of extra ending slides. There's no reason I should be forced to follow Yes Man's agenda if he indeed has an agenda. Now if the NCR then chose to attack me regardless, because they don't trust me anymore or whatever, (edit: or even if Yes Man then attacked us) that's a valid design choice, but the point is I got to make the decision and kept player agency, which is the main reason to play RPG's after all.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Starwars]

Just finished another playthrough. I gotta say, playing as a female courier and helping Cass out on her quest the non-violent way... The little speech Cass does during her ending slide is completely awesome.

 

I really love the endings, it's too bad *someone* forgot to tell the narrator for Primm that the rest of the slides use a past tense. Kinda annoying.

 

But still, the ending is fantastic.

[Tigranes]

I helped Cass but I think as a male player, what's different?

 

4th energy/NCR playthrough now heading towards Boulder City. I took the back route from Hidden Valley, dodged some Giant Radscorpions with theri insane DT then snuck into Black Mountain (using a Locksmith's Reader for the back gate then a stealth boy) to recruit Raul. Now I can do his quest & hear his talk for the first half, then grab Arcade Gannon for the second. I think he's a bit OP for where I am now, though - he's meant to be pretty geriatric with his pistol but even with the patch he's a bit too strong if you get him at lvl10.

 

Energy weapons are pretty fun, by the way. It's hard to tell the difference between some of them (Laser RCW? Plasma Pistol v. Rifle v. Defender? Recharge Pistol v. Rifle?) but it'll also be fun to try overcharge ammo and such. I'm using the Pointiac mod, which restores double skill points for tags but reduces skill points per level & starting points.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I didn't like the end. It was illogical. You have someone who's named after one of the best military strategist, Caesar, who is making a stupid mistake by attacking the dam head on. Having his soldiers go down a narrow corridor on top of the dam is an easy pick off sight for snipers and machine gun nests. If he was smart he would have had part of his force cross the river and sneak up on the NCRs rear.

 

Next you have the Boomers dropping bombs on the dam. The dam is old and probably hasn't been well maintained in 200 years, the dam would have broke apart from the bombs.

[entrerix]

after nearly 200 hours of new vegas I have decided that the boomers are my least favorite thing about the game.

[Enoch]

after nearly 200 hours of new vegas I have decided that the boomers are my least favorite thing about the game.

I prefer the ending where you ignore their whole questline and simply murder their leaders.

[pmp10]

I didn't like the end. It was illogical. You have someone who's named after one of the best military strategist, Caesar, who is making a stupid mistake by attacking the dam head on. Having his soldiers go down a narrow corridor on top of the dam is an easy pick off sight for snipers and machine gun nests. If he was smart he would have had part of his force cross the river and sneak up on the NCRs rear.

Apparently the battle plan was to use tunnels.

Not sure how they can go through the dam and cut off NCR retreat but that

[Tigranes]

When you side with Caesar, he uses numerous points of entry - through the tunnels then silos, through the tunnels then the bottom plant levels, from the top, etc. It's not quite as clear when you're on the NCR side, but they do come out of all those areas - that's the main reason the Legion swarm the dam everywhere.

 

Crossing the river would have been difficult as the game shows that's the one possibility the NCR was watching the most. Caesar's crossing attempt in Cottonwood Cove was successful but too far down south, Searchlight couldn't be used as a forward base, NCR had rangers all down the length of the Colorado within the game map, a sniper nest on the Cove and most of their troops and encampments are in strategic locations allowing them to sight every crossing. Only the North was really open due to their new base being eradicated by lakelurks, but that's not really the 'rear'.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I didn't like the end. It was illogical. You have someone who's named after one of the best military strategist, Caesar, who is making a stupid mistake by attacking the dam head on. Having his soldiers go down a narrow corridor on top of the dam is an easy pick off sight for snipers and machine gun nests. If he was smart he would have had part of his force cross the river and sneak up on the NCRs rear.

 

Next you have the Boomers dropping bombs on the dam. The dam is old and probably hasn't been well maintained in 200 years, the dam would have broke apart from the bombs.

Legion forces attack the dam from a lot of directions, and if you listen to NCR emergency radio, there are attacks at various other points in the Mojave Wasteland happening concurrently.

 

The Boomers drop conventional incendiary bombs. No way that's destroying Hoover Dam. Most of the dam is solid concrete reinforced by rebar.

 

[entrerix]

I love it when developers actually stick up for their game instead of just ignoring the horde.

 

also, I may have drunkenly tweeted at/to you after a comedy show last weekend in which fallout new vegas was brought up, apologies.

Edited February 10, 2011 by entrerix