Reminder: Europeans literally cannot accept that imperialism was bad.

[lord of flies]

Whoa

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Louis Michel, the Belgian former EU development commissioner and current prominent Liberal MEP has shocked his home nation and its one-time central African subjects by calling King Leopold II, the Congo's colonial master responsible for between 3 million and 10 million deaths, a "visionary hero."

 

"Leopold II was a true visionary for his time, a hero," he told P-Magazine, a local publication, in an interview on Tuesday. "And even if there were horrible events in the Congo, should we now condemn them?"

 

In the late 19th Century, the Belgian colony of the Congo Free State, effectively the personal property of Leopold II, became infamous for the enslavement and brutal treatment of the Congolese people.

 

Estimates of the number killed while the region was plundered for its rich resources vary substantially, but researchers believe between 5 million and 20 million died.

 

"Leopold II does not deserve these accusations," continued Mr Michel, himself a descendent of the Belgian king and a "Knight, Officer and Commander" in the Order of Leopold, Belgium's highest honour.

 

"The Belgians built railways, schools and hospitals and boosted economic growth. Leopold turned the Congo into a vast labour camp? Really? In those days it was just the way things were done."

 

Admitting there were "irregularities," he said: "We can easily be tempted to exaggerate when it comes to the Congo ... I feel instinctively that he was a hero, a hero with ambitions for a small country like Belgium."

 

"To use the word 'genocide' in relation to the Congo is absolutely unacceptable and inappropriate. And yes, maybe colonisation was domineering and acquiring more power, but at a certain moment, it brought civilisation."

 

Having left the commission in 2009, the current executive washes its hands of what Mr Michel is now saying as a private individual and has refused to comment on his remarks.

 

The leader of the Liberals in the European Parliament, Guy Verhofstadt, also a Belgian, likewise did not want to comment on the issue.

 

Mr Michel himself was unavailable for comment.

 

Belgian politicians and commentators however were appalled at Mr Michel's words. Outgoing centre-right senator Pol Van Den Driessche of the Flemish Christian Democrats said Leopold's Congolese regime was "shameful"

 

"Of course there is the historical context in which all this happened," he told Het Nieuwsblad, a Belgian daily.. "But a great visionary? Absolutely not. What has happened then was shameful."

 

"If we measured him against 21st century standards, it is likely that Leopold would be hauled before the International Criminal Court in the Hague."

 

Looking at Mr Michel's legacy as an EU commissioner, one contact in the aid and development activist community said he: "tended to focus on the Congo and other regions with historic links to Belgium" and that "poverty eradication seemed to not always be at the heart of his work."

 

Another source noted that Mr Michel delivered an EU consensus on development co-operation in the mid-2,000s, "a very important achievement," but was "not very open to public debate and civil society."

 

Mr Michel is currently the vice-president of the EU's Joint Parliamentary Assembly with African, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) countries, the contemporary trade and political association linking Europe with most of its former colonies. Its next meeting will be held in Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in December.

 

His controversial remarks come a week ahead of the visit of Belgium's current king, Albert II, to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, celebrating 60 years of independence from the country. It will be the first such visit in 25 years.

 

Additionally this week, a group of legal activists has formally requested war-crimes charges be brought against 12 Belgian government officials allegedly responsible for the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, Congo's first prime minister, a left-winger which the CIA also attempted to murder, according to a US Senate investigation.

Hey Brits, remember: your country had a quantifiably worse effect on the world during the colonial era than ****ing Belgium. Stop romanticizing the mass starvation of Indians as you export their food.

[Oblarg]

That's just...

 

Wow.

[Nepenthe]

After all, one loonie in one European country represents all Europeans.

 

You have a real future in writing headlines.

[Oblarg]

After all, one loonie in one European country represents all Europeans.

 

You have a real future in writing headlines.

 

It could have meant either "some Europeans" or "the Europeans," as he included no article. People generally assume the latter, though.

[Blarghagh]

I'm feeling a bit misrepresented here.

[213374U]

After all, one loonie in one European country represents all Europeans.

 

You have a real future in writing headlines.

 

It could have meant either "some Europeans" or "the Europeans," as he included no article. People generally assume the latter, though.

Yeah, technically, it should be "One European literally cannot... etc. as that's all this piece shows. I could go find a similar article about some cranky Stalin-loving lefty and make a similarly silly thread... and I would if this wasn't just the latest lolf troll-fail. Edited July 3, 2010 by 213374U

[Volourn]

"And even if there were horrible events in the Congo, should we now condemn them?"

 

 

Yes.

[Walsingham]

Do you think he gets paid to post this? I mean besides his student grant.

[Purkake]

Oh look a new thread!

 

[Monte Carlo]

"What did the Romans ever do for us?"

[Oblarg]

After all, one loonie in one European country represents all Europeans.

 

You have a real future in writing headlines.

 

It could have meant either "some Europeans" or "the Europeans," as he included no article. People generally assume the latter, though.

Yeah, technically, it should be "One European literally cannot... etc. as that's all this piece shows. I could go find a similar article about some cranky Stalin-loving lefty and make a similarly silly thread... and I would if this wasn't just the latest lolf troll-fail.

 

You know, he really doesn't have to do much trolling in this case. If I were a European I'd be more pissed at the moron who said this than at LoF.

[HoonDing]

To be expected from royalists.

[Morgoth]

Belgians have a dirty history. News at 11.

[213374U]

You know, he really doesn't have to do much trolling in this case. If I were a European I'd be more pissed at the moron who said this than at LoF.

Why? I'm pissed at neither. From the looks of it, both are just going for an obvious attention grab. I don't feel this guy represents me any more than, say, the heirs of the German American Bund do you. He just happens to live in the same continent as I do.

[Oblarg]

You know, he really doesn't have to do much trolling in this case. If I were a European I'd be more pissed at the moron who said this than at LoF.

Why? I'm pissed at neither. From the looks of it, both are just going for an obvious attention grab. I don't feel this guy represents me any more than, say, the heirs of the German American Bund do you. He just happens to live in the same continent as I do.

 

Whether or not you *feel* he represents you and whether or not outsiders will take him as representative of your views are two different issues entirely. He reflects badly on the Belgian government, that's for sure.

[213374U]

Whether or not you *feel* he represents you and whether or not outsiders will take him as representative of your views are two different issues entirely. He reflects badly on the Belgian government, that's for sure.

That would be a misunderstanding on your part -- I (or that guy) can't be held responsible for your lack of a realistic picture of how things work outside America. Despite efforts (from within Europe, too) to portray Europe as a somewhat culturally homogeneous and politically unified entity, that's not really how things are.

 

If you are suggesting that a Belgian politician expressing fringe historical views in Belgium somehow reflects badly on me as a Spaniard... then I can only assume that you haven't really done your homework.

Edited July 3, 2010 by 213374U

[Thorton_AP]

Screw you imperalism lover.

[Nepenthe]

It's kind of like if I said that all americans are communists based on the fact that there used to be a communist party in Honduras.

[lord of flies]

So, 213374U, would you agree with the following statement: "Spanish colonial rule was unequivocally a net negative to humanity at large"?

 

Walsingham, would you repeat that with respect to Britain? Of course not, we already know you're a goddamn Victorian romanticist, idealizing the empire that starved tens of millions of civilians in the death camp called the British Raj in India.

 

It is truly disgusting and vile, the inability to accept the brutality of your forefathers when their crimes are so vast. American colonial rule (e.g. the Pacific islands) and neo-colonial rule (e.g. Latin America) was unequivocally a net negative to humanity at large. Same too for every European, esp. the Belgians, Brits and French.

Edited July 4, 2010 by lord of flies

[Monte Carlo]

LOL coming from an admirer of Stalin.

[lord of flies]

LOL coming from an admirer of Stalin.

Yes, I do admire the man who industrialized the Soviet Union and lead it against the Nazis. Certainly the Great Purge was overzealous, but the net effect of Stalin was the defeat of the Nazi menace, a monstrosity far greater and more terrible than the Great Purge. I'll remind you that in four short years the Nazis killed over twenty million Soviet citizens, and they would have done far, far more if they'd had the opportunity. Stalin (alongside the Soviet peoples, of course) denied them that opportunity. It had its price, greater than it needed to be, but "Stalinism" was a net good for the world.

[Thorton_AP]

I like to think it was a team effort. I'm crazy like that.

[Monte Carlo]

LOL coming from an admirer of Stalin.

Yes, I do admire the man who industrialized the Soviet Union and lead it against the Nazis. Certainly the Great Purge was overzealous, but the net effect of Stalin was the defeat of the Nazi menace, a monstrosity far greater and more terrible than the Great Purge. I'll remind you that in four short years the Nazis killed over twenty million Soviet citizens, and they would have done far, far more if they'd had the opportunity. Stalin (alongside the Soviet peoples, of course) denied them that opportunity. It had its price, greater than it needed to be, but "Stalinism" was a net good for the world.

 

Which is why you are best ignored.

[lord of flies]

I like to think it was a team effort. I'm crazy like that.

The Red Army killed the vast majority of Nazi troops. 5.5:1 ratio of Nazis killed by the Soviet Union to Nazis killed by the entire rest of the allies.

Which is why you are best ignored.

Nice counterargument... wait.

[Oblarg]

Certainly the Great Purge was overzealous

 

Understatement of the century?