What is bad about the gameplay ASIDE from people trying to play this like a shooter?

[C2B]

Mind you this could be avoidable if "HP" were handled a bit differently.

 

The approch ME2 took with Armor and Shields is noteworthy here. Though it was still very flawed and didn't make too much sense in that way.

 

To hold up gameplay is you know an important part in games. If we made games all "realistical" people would way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more rage. I have yet to see a game that handled gun/sword play in some way realistically. Sorry.

And in some way, thats a good thing.

Edited June 15, 2010 by C2B

[Oner]

I have yet to see a game that handled gun/sword play in ANY way realistically. Sorry.

And in some way, thats a good thing.

Jedi Knight games. :3

[Amentep]

Mind you this could be avoidable if "HP" were handled a bit differently.

 

The approch ME2 took with Armor and Shields is noteworthy here. Though it was still very flawed and didn't make too much sense in that way.

 

To hold up gameplay is you know an important part in games. If we made games all "realistical" people would way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more rage. I have yet to see a game that handled gun/sword play in some way realistically. Sorry.

And in some way, thats a good thing.

 

I think realism and games don't always go well together. I find it funny that there's complaints about HP but I haven't read complaints about Mike's regenerating body armor. Or in fact that Mike can take 3 or 4 headshots in the right armor (despite the fact that he doesn't wear any armor on his head) before it starts effecting his HP, stand in a grenade explosion and so forth and not be killed or maimed.

 

HP is an abstraction to allow combat to happen in a satisfying game way. Workarounds could be created - give characters static HP but have an ever increasing "fatigue" limit so that any attack that hits and bypasses armor is "dodged" expending some of the fatigue. But its essentially only adding a new coat of paint to the old HP system.

 

But I'm not sure I want to play a *game* where I can be dropped in one shot and I certainly don't want to play an emergency room/surgery/physical therapy simulator for 6 in-game months every time my character gets shot...

[SirPetrakus]

I'm sick and tired of defending a game that I like to other people just because other people don't get it. Everyone I've explained the game to, had not realized that AP is an RPG with action/stealth elements built in. Just as in every RPG there are certain rules and parameters that people must abide to in order to be able to go through it. When I informed people that the shooting actually works, but you can't go shooting from the hip and must be within a certain range for each weapon to work, people just retorted that they weren't willing to wait that long and level up just so they can shoot their way through impossible odds. Well, you know what? That's fine. But this isn't the game to do it in.

 

As for impossible bosses and broken gameplay? Let's talk about ME1 for the PC, shall we? Saren, or more like Metal Saren in true DragonBall fashion, has a shield equivalent off the USS Enterprise. Let's take a class like, say the Infiltrator, that uses only the sniper rifle and a pistol. Your squad mates' weapons have overheated within the first 10 seconds and yours too will, if you're not extremely careful. Problem is, Saren's shield regenerates faster than your weapon cools off, so I was stuck in an indefinite loop as I couldn't take Saren's shields down and Saren couldn't kill me, as my medical interface would heal me up faster than he could damage me. THAT is impossible, THAT is broken. AP is easy mode. If you can't handle AP's gameplay you shouldn't even be talking here.

 

I hear complaints about Brayko ... drop 2 incendiaries on him to ware off the armor and he's 4 controlled bursts with the assault rifle. And you needn't even have invested any points in assault rifle to do it. USE your HEAD! And the guy still needs a boatload less than any MGS boss fight. Should we get rid of every boss fight in every game? Should it all be a series of QTEs? Or just throw in an anti-climactic cinematic cutscene? I play a game to PLAY a game not to HAVE IT play ITSELF for me. My God, these people infuriate me.

[Oner]

ITT people complain because gameplay is gameplay.

[dan107]

Alpha Protocol's accuracy is probably closer to reality than Counter-Strike's... Counter-Strike gives you single-shot accuracy almost like what you'd get if you bolted the gun down to a table, except it's in a combat situation.

 

You're playing a one man army that will kill in the neighborhood of 300 people singlehandedly before the game is done. Given the context marksman level accuracy can be forgiven IMO. I will reiterate once more that I don't have a problem with waiting to aim and inaccuracy when an enemy is at a distance, it's having to deal with it at close range that I find annoying. And the fact that Thorton's aiming abilities will differ drastically between the beginning and end of the game.

 

That analogy fails on multiple levels. You buy bikes and games for different reasons, and the design goals when making them are very different. Bikes are not a creative outlet, games are. Buying a bike rather than building your own is more like leasing a game engine instead of programming your own, not like copying a game's gameplay rather than making your own.

 

Don't take my words out of content. I clarified the analogy in my post. All I meant to say is that creativity does not equal good gameplay, and using a system you know to work does not equal bad gameplay. You can't be creative everywhere at once and expect to ship the game, so pick your battles. Being different for the sake of being different is not a good approach.

 

If he was good at both, though, it'd nullify the players choice in how they wanted to define Thorton, which is what I think they're going for.

 

Thorton is not exactly a blank slate to begin with though. He's more or less a defined character and personally I would sacrifice a little more character customization for a more customized gameplay experience. I can see why some might feel differently though.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that the game is not actually intended to be realistic.

 

To any that followed the game development, that became pretty obvious a long time ago.

 

I can understand how some might expect a very realistic experience, and that's a fault of the game, but by design it's not intended to be realistic.

 

Perhaps realism was a poor choice of words. Obviously realistically no one is sneaking into a 7-11 without getting caught on camera, let alone a secured intelligence compound. What I really want from stealth is a deeper, more satisfying experience. A good stealth level is first and foremost a puzzle that you have to solve. Figure out the guards' patrol routes, create a diversion, find an open window or an alternate path - all those are satisfying ways to overcome a challenge. Pressing a magic button and just breezing through is not.

 

As for impossible bosses and broken gameplay? Let's talk about ME1 for the PC, shall we?

 

I don't see how pointing out problems in other games is relevant to AP.

 

Should we get rid of every boss fight in every game? Should it all be a series of QTEs? Or just throw in an anti-climactic cinematic cutscene? I play a game to PLAY a game not to HAVE IT play ITSELF for me. My God, these people infuriate me.

 

I actually agree with you on bosses. I'd rather have a boss fight be memorable and challenging than ultra-realistic. However, there are ways to make fights challenging without giving enemies superhuman abilities though. For instance Darcy throwing 3 grenades simultaneously from 200 yards with pinpoint accuracy is a bit much IMO. Especially considering that a similar result could be achieved by setting up a small mortar near him or something.

[edgarcuk]

Alpha Protocol's accuracy is probably closer to reality than Counter-Strike's... Counter-Strike gives you single-shot accuracy almost like what you'd get if you bolted the gun down to a table, except it's in a combat situation.

 

You're playing a one man army that will kill in the neighborhood of 300 people singlehandedly before the game is done. Given the context marksman level accuracy can be forgiven IMO. I will reiterate once more that I don't have a problem with waiting to aim and inaccuracy when an enemy is at a distance, it's having to deal with it at close range that I find annoying. And the fact that Thorton's aiming abilities will differ drastically between the beginning and end of the game.

 

 

For that matter, once the stealth is broken and the enemy is getting close, pistol and AR are crap, better use SMG or shotgun, they will take the enemy down at close range, or just wait to take him down with your kung-fu, or move to get another cover, use shadow operative and take him down...

 

If you are caught sneaking, I think is pretty normal that the enemy is attacking you... and any other AI will do the same. It's true that the AI behaves in a weird manner, sometimes you can sneak in front of a guard and sometimes a guard senses you behind a wall, which I think is due to the noise, if you are wearing a noisy armour, the more likely to be heard...

 

Anyway, that's not mediocre game combat. Perhaps you want many games in one, but so far none has got this. As many members of the forums have mentioned, AP is none of those games and it is AP, nothing else. Perhaps the combat was designed to be different or it was a bad design, but it does feel refreshing and challenging... of course, once you know how to play it...

Edited June 15, 2010 by edgarcuk

[Hassat Hunter]

And the fact that Thorton's aiming abilities will differ drastically between the beginning and end of the game.

Kind of the point of an RPG, right?

 

Why use skills if they are wasted and make no difference?

[Alpha]

I'm sick and tired of defending a game that I like to other people just because other people don't get it. Everyone I've explained the game to, had not realized that AP is an RPG with action/stealth elements built in. Just as in every RPG there are certain rules and parameters that people must abide to in order to be able to go through it. When I informed people that the shooting actually works, but you can't go shooting from the hip and must be within a certain range for each weapon to work, people just retorted that they weren't willing to wait that long and level up just so they can shoot their way through impossible odds. Well, you know what? That's fine. But this isn't the game to do it in.

 

As for impossible bosses and broken gameplay? Let's talk about ME1 for the PC, shall we? Saren, or more like Metal Saren in true DragonBall fashion, has a shield equivalent off the USS Enterprise. Let's take a class like, say the Infiltrator, that uses only the sniper rifle and a pistol. Your squad mates' weapons have overheated within the first 10 seconds and yours too will, if you're not extremely careful. Problem is, Saren's shield regenerates faster than your weapon cools off, so I was stuck in an indefinite loop as I couldn't take Saren's shields down and Saren couldn't kill me, as my medical interface would heal me up faster than he could damage me. THAT is impossible, THAT is broken. AP is easy mode. If you can't handle AP's gameplay you shouldn't even be talking here.

 

I hear complaints about Brayko ... drop 2 incendiaries on him to ware off the armor and he's 4 controlled bursts with the assault rifle. And you needn't even have invested any points in assault rifle to do it. USE your HEAD! And the guy still needs a boatload less than any MGS boss fight. Should we get rid of every boss fight in every game? Should it all be a series of QTEs? Or just throw in an anti-climactic cinematic cutscene? I play a game to PLAY a game not to HAVE IT play ITSELF for me. My God, these people infuriate me.

I agree with you, to that kind of gamers/reviewers is more easy say that the gunplay is broken/mediocre than understand the correct way to play the game and that Weapons Skills play an important role in AP .

Edited June 15, 2010 by Alpha

[WorstUsernameEver]

I'm sick and tired of defending a game that I like to other people just because other people don't get it. Everyone I've explained the game to, had not realized that AP is an RPG with action/stealth elements built in. Just as in every RPG there are certain rules and parameters that people must abide to in order to be able to go through it. When I informed people that the shooting actually works, but you can't go shooting from the hip and must be within a certain range for each weapon to work, people just retorted that they weren't willing to wait that long and level up just so they can shoot their way through impossible odds. Well, you know what? That's fine. But this isn't the game to do it in.

 

I guess, but it turned out to be a bad move for Obsidian =/

 

As for impossible bosses and broken gameplay? Let's talk about ME1 for the PC, shall we? Saren, or more like Metal Saren in true DragonBall fashion, has a shield equivalent off the USS Enterprise. Let's take a class like, say the Infiltrator, that uses only the sniper rifle and a pistol. Your squad mates' weapons have overheated within the first 10 seconds and yours too will, if you're not extremely careful. Problem is, Saren's shield regenerates faster than your weapon cools off, so I was stuck in an indefinite loop as I couldn't take Saren's shields down and Saren couldn't kill me, as my medical interface would heal me up faster than he could damage me. THAT is impossible, THAT is broken. AP is easy mode. If you can't handle AP's gameplay you shouldn't even be talking here.

 

I hear complaints about Brayko ... drop 2 incendiaries on him to ware off the armor and he's 4 controlled bursts with the assault rifle. And you needn't even have invested any points in assault rifle to do it. USE your HEAD! And the guy still needs a boatload less than any MGS boss fight. Should we get rid of every boss fight in every game? Should it all be a series of QTEs? Or just throw in an anti-climactic cinematic cutscene? I play a game to PLAY a game not to HAVE IT play ITSELF for me. My God, these people infuriate me.

 

I agree completely here.. actually my problem with AP's bosses is that a couple of them are unimaginative, not that they're too difficult.. if anything they were too easy with a stealth/pistol build.

[MarteenDee]

---snip---

 

Answer to your problems is quite simple, Dan. Don't like it? - don't play it.

 

Knowing so much about game design and what should done to be right, what's the best and where's the truth about perfect game experience you shouldn't be wasting your time on these forums.

 

You know what? I have an idea: you should be designing your own game! There's even full engine waiting for you to use!

So download your copy of Unreal Development Kit - it's easy to use, ready for your brilliant and ground breaking ideas to became truth!

 

Ah - and don't forget to inform us how is it going and give us some demo to try. I bet, with such deep knowledge about how everything should be done your game is going to be a full blown success, no question about that.

 

...Ah...unless you're one of those useless malcontent, who can't do anything on their own - just whine that people more talented than you couldn't make something which would suit your sophisticated taste...

[unskilled-]

---snip---

 

Answer to your problems is quite simple, Dan. Don't like it? - don't play it.

 

Knowing so much about game design and what should done to be right, what's the best and where's the truth about perfect game experience you shouldn't be wasting your time on these forums.

 

You know what? I have an idea: you should be designing your own game! There's even full engine waiting for you to use!

So download your copy of Unreal Development Kit - it's easy to use, ready for your brilliant and ground breaking ideas to became truth!

 

Ah - and don't forget to inform us how is it going and give us some demo to try. I bet, with such deep knowledge about how everything should be done your game is going to be a full blown success, no question about that.

 

...Ah...unless you're one of those useless malcontent, who can't do anything on their own - just whine that people more talented than you couldn't make something which would suit your sophisticated taste...

 

So sorry for demanding quality production out of the product we paid $50 dollars for.

 

Yeah, thats right. We shouldn't whine or complain about a product we paid for and should expect more out of it. We shouldn't expect the developers or anybody with half a brain to hear our criticism of the game and, hopefully for the future, take them into account and hopefully implement them. But what do we know? I'm sure all of us haven't been playing video games for the past 10 years, so what do we know?

[MarteenDee]

So sorry for demanding quality production out of the product we paid $50 dollars for.

 

Yeah, thats right. We shouldn't whine or complain about a product we paid for and should expect more out of it. We shouldn't expect the developers or anybody with half a brain to hear our criticism of the game and, hopefully for the future, take them into account and hopefully implement them. But what do we know? I'm sure all of us haven't been playing video games for the past 10 years, so what do we know?

 

It is a quality production. On its own rights.

 

You got what you've paid for - an espionage RPG, with rich story, levelling, multiple character builds, good voice acting, interesting mechanics. More?

 

Yes, there are some slight glitches which should be definitely ironed out in upcoming patch - but show me a single piece of software released without any bugs...

 

Oh.. Unless you wanted to eat bananas but by mistake you bought some apples. But then it's your fault and it has nothing to do with apples quality, neither the orchard owner's lack of knowledge or talent.

Edited June 15, 2010 by MarteenDee

[C2B]

---snip---

 

Answer to your problems is quite simple, Dan. Don't like it? - don't play it.

 

Knowing so much about game design and what should done to be right, what's the best and where's the truth about perfect game experience you shouldn't be wasting your time on these forums.

 

You know what? I have an idea: you should be designing your own game! There's even full engine waiting for you to use!

So download your copy of Unreal Development Kit - it's easy to use, ready for your brilliant and ground breaking ideas to became truth!

 

Ah - and don't forget to inform us how is it going and give us some demo to try. I bet, with such deep knowledge about how everything should be done your game is going to be a full blown success, no question about that.

 

...Ah...unless you're one of those useless malcontent, who can't do anything on their own - just whine that people more talented than you couldn't make something which would suit your sophisticated taste...

 

So sorry for demanding quality production out of the product we paid $50 dollars for.

 

Yeah, thats right. We shouldn't whine or complain about a product we paid for and should expect more out of it. We shouldn't expect the developers or anybody with half a brain to hear our criticism of the game and, hopefully for the future, take them into account and hopefully implement them. But what do we know? I'm sure all of us haven't been playing video games for the past 10 years, so what do we know?

 

Yeah, how to twist words.

 

Little tip: There is a difference between improving something and "I want to have it my waaaay. W

[SirPetrakus]

I guess, but it turned out to be a bad move for Obsidian =/

 

But if we're going to disagree about putting RPG gameplay mechanics in an RPG no less what's the point of it being an RPG? Let's make another generic shooter! I'm sorry, I just cannot abide by that. I wouldn't have bought this game if it went the shooter route or I would have picked up Conviction instead.

 

I agree completely here.. actually my problem with AP's bosses is that a couple of them are unimaginative, not that they're too difficult.. if anything they were too easy with a stealth/pistol build.

 

Well, I have nothing to refute that, but there are a lot of people that complained about the difficulty, like even the boss fights were broken. If anything is broken, it's their heads. I'm not going to say that everything works perfect in the game, though. The cover mechanics ... could have been much much better. But that is the only problem I ever had with the game! And the chair in the restaurant in Rome. I cringed at that chair! The table too. That's what I want for AP2, better cover mechanics, chairs and tables in restaurants.

[Thorton_AP]

No, but there are people complaining about the lack of "stealthing" through the game without spending major points into stealth.

 

The game wasn't designed to let you snoop around every level without being spotted without the crazy skills IMO. Barring some extreme patience.

 

This would be a design oversight or flaw, take your pick.

 

It doesn't have to be either.

 

If every level would be perfectly stealthable without exceptional patience or the stealth abilities, then stealth as an ability tree becomes marginalized and not useful.

 

As it stands now, you can do an okay job of stealthing around without skill points in stealth, but ultimately you'll run into issues. Just like how you'll do an okay job without points into any weapons, but ultimately you'll run into issues.

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah, stealth as it is is fairly well balanced with the exception of the Invisibility spell. You can do well using reasonably quiet armor to sneak up on lone guards or any old armor to get into advantageous positions, even without a single point, but some parts of the game require stealth skills if you want to sneak past them. Very well balanced I'd say.

[Zoraptor]

ITT people complain because gameplay is gameplay.

Combine with Hassat Hunter's post: people complain because an rpg has rpg gameplay- probably the most accurate summation.

 

I think it really comes down to two factors- is the only way an RPG can 'evolve' to get rid of the RPG gameplay mechanics in favour of ones from another genre, be it shooter, stealth or whatever? And how much the "Halflife is an RPG, you play the role of Gordon/ Need for Speed is an RPG you play the role of an upgradeable car/ Pong is an RPG you play the role of a paddle" type arguments have been accepted as a definition.

[Grand_Commander13]

There's nothing inherently "roleplay"ey about the dungeon basher gameplay that Baldur's Gate and all its ilk use. It's just that they were the gold standard of roleplaying for a decade, and so it's come to be expected. To be honest I'm almost (almost) surprised people don't try to say Fallout wasn't an RPG because it had turn-based combat rather than real time with pause... >.>

 

To be honest the combat is one of the least important parts of what makes a game truly an RPG. People whined about Invisible War not having the skill system but the game was no less an RPG for lacking it. You could make a perfectly good RPG where the core gameplay was solving puzzles, for instance. Think Myst but rather than an adventure game with a set path you choose your own.

 

In fact, take Mass Effect, remove all combat and references to Shepard, and you play as Liara going to various Prothean dig sites working your way through the ruins trying to solve the mystery of the cycle of extinctions. Side quests earn you extra funding and backers for your published research, and conversations with scientific peers affects reception of your whirlwind of sudden finds and eventually whether you can present a convincing enough case to plead before the Council. Why didn't Bioware publish this game?

[Amentep]

So sorry for demanding quality production out of the product we paid $50 dollars for.

 

Yeah, thats right. We shouldn't whine or complain about a product we paid for and should expect more out of it. We shouldn't expect the developers or anybody with half a brain to hear our criticism of the game and, hopefully for the future, take them into account and hopefully implement them. But what do we know? I'm sure all of us haven't been playing video games for the past 10 years, so what do we know?

 

This is probably just a poor choice of words, but I think from the perspective of Obsidian I imagine that constructive criticism would be more valued than whining or complaining.

 

This has been an interesting thread - possibly because AP's gameplay has so divided those who played it - but well reasoned and thought out criticisms should be the order of the day (and I should point out that we've seen many on both the pros and cons in several threads).

Edited June 16, 2010 by Amentep

[WorstUsernameEver]

I guess, but it turned out to be a bad move for Obsidian =/

 

But if we're going to disagree about putting RPG gameplay mechanics in an RPG no less what's the point of it being an RPG? Let's make another generic shooter! I'm sorry, I just cannot abide by that. I wouldn't have bought this game if it went the shooter route or I would have picked up Conviction instead.

 

But here you're twisting my words. I never advocated for the elimination of skills!

What I was asking is a more elegant and less frustrating (for certain players) implementation. Is it difficult? Hell yes.

But if you want to create a great game with a broad appeal while not watering it down.. well... you have to work hard on it.

 

I agree completely here.. actually my problem with AP's bosses is that a couple of them are unimaginative, not that they're too difficult.. if anything they were too easy with a stealth/pistol build.

 

Well, I have nothing to refute that, but there are a lot of people that complained about the difficulty, like even the boss fights were broken. If anything is broken, it's their heads. I'm not going to say that everything works perfect in the game, though. The cover mechanics ... could have been much much better. But that is the only problem I ever had with the game! And the chair in the restaurant in Rome. I cringed at that chair! The table too. That's what I want for AP2, better cover mechanics, chairs and tables in restaurants.

 

Better cover mechanics would be a plus. They're not as bad as some people make them to be though, after playing the Mass Effect 2 demo well.. they were better than AP but not by THAT much.

[Oner]

To be honest I'm almost (almost) surprised people don't try to say Fallout wasn't an RPG because it had turn-based combat rather than real time with pause... >.>

Haha yeah.

[MarteenDee]

But here you're twisting my words. I never advocated for the elimination of skills!

What I was asking is a more elegant and less frustrating (for certain players) implementation. Is it difficult? Hell yes.

But if you want to create a great game with a broad appeal while not watering it down.. well... you have to work hard on it.

 

 

Depends if "broad appeal" and pleasing the group which isn't the "main customers target" for the game is a good thing.

 

I think not - but it's only my personal opinion - and I'm well aware that it doesn't pair with "commercial success".

 

Look what happened with ME2, CoD series, Splinter Cell, Deus Ex 2 etc. All these "established" titles started changing to be understood by the wider audience than they had. To get out of the boundaries of "hardcore gamers ghetto".

Sure, from financial point of view it's a good thing, but if that happens to be the only aim for making games - watching sales rankings bars rise - we're going to end up playing dumbed down, 6-hours-to-complete, Wii sport simulators for casual players...

 

Sure - there's room for improvement. But - in all honesty - were AP mechanics so frustrating? For casual player expecting to be lead by the hand from one point to another - sure they were. For hardcore player, who understood right away that it's something different than, ie. Splinter Cell? Not really.

[player1]

I just took small break from AP, to try Overlord DLC for ME2, so both games and fresh to do some comparison.

 

Graphics in ME2 were better, since it uses more post-processing filters then AP. Also having scf-fi settings helps more in bringing wow effect.

 

Combat flow is also better, due to use of hotkeys for activating abilities instantly, and having only single key (not 3) to bring all others in pause state, Pressing it gives options to activate talents, change weapons and everything else, while unpressing it brings back combat. Much better then Z/X/C from AP.

 

In AP, if you want to use Chain Shot twice, you need to:

-press Z

-select Chain Shot with mouse

-use Chain Shot with Q

-press Z

-select Brilliance with mouse

-use Brilliance with Q

-press Z

-select Chain Shot with mouse

-use Chain Shot with Q

 

Reeeeally tedious!

 

On the other hand, single cooldown timer for all abilities in ME2 encourages spamming of same thing over and over.

Still, at least you know when can you use all abilities there, while you have no idea in AP when you can use other abilities then one currently active (you need to shuffle them with Z/select first).

 

As for accuracy in combat, in ME2, weapons are very accurate, compared to fully skilled Thorton. In AP, even fully skilled pistol is only good for Chain Shot at long range, since bullet spread is large, and critical hit is limited by distance.

 

You could even say that AP is way more realistic, since pistols are not supposed to be poor man snipers, like in ME2 and some other games with FPS shooting mechanic. Low recoil doesn't mean good accuracy! There is a reason why rifles have long barrels and pistols do not.

 

Still, first combat experience in AP is in Greybox, when you have shootout with guards in one corridor (before first lock picking tutorial). I'm pretty sure everyone that played AP had their WTF moment here, when they realized how inaccurate pistols are, and that they just can't use them to shoot accurately on guards at the other side of the corridor, without getting closer. And this "fist impression" moment is probably what stayed in heads of reviewers that gave low scores to AP. What is funny is that pistols accuracy is probably better modeled in AP then in shooters, but still it gives a really bad vibe when first time experienced in the game.

 

As for dialogs, ME2 system now looks shallow to me after playing Alpha Protocol. Good job here!

Edited June 16, 2010 by player1

[SirPetrakus]

But here you're twisting my words. I never advocated for the elimination of skills!

What I was asking is a more elegant and less frustrating (for certain players) implementation. Is it difficult? Hell yes.

But if you want to create a great game with a broad appeal while not watering it down.. well... you have to work hard on it.

 

So you're suggesting the removal of just the weapon skills? Keeping just stealth, sabotage, toughness and Martial arts? That is a very shallow skill tree. It is so shallow in fact that why have it at all? It's like in ME2, where I leveled up and invested my points in ammunition. No, I don't think you understand me here; I spent my character's advancement points to buy ammo! What the ... seriously! I blew chunks out of my opponents and instead of, say, familiarizing with my armor and optimizing for better shield output or getting a better aim with pistols, I got ice bullets. ICE BULLETS! But don't get me wrong, I actually liked ME2.