Fallout: New Vegas

[Nemo0071]

I think the idea is that VATS is designed to be able to be used for any situation.

 

The thing I like about VATS is that it means that people that don't typically care for FPS games or their mechanics are still able to play the game. I thought it was an acceptable nod to the history of the game, and actually enjoyed playing the game using almost exclusively VATS.

 

Can it be improved? For sure. But I had no issue with using it as it placed a bit more of the control in the character, not myself.

 

 

I definitely do not think that it should have any restrictions against using it at all (i.e. an agility requirement). Making it require a certain agility score greatly diminishes it's purpose IMO.

To me, VATS was a way to allow the game player the option to use their character skill to attack enemies. I can understand the DR (even if I don't agree with it), because control is suspended while in VATS.

Except for the part I scratched, I agree completely.

 

The added DR made perfect sense (you queue up several attacks, then stand still until they're completed), but it was extreme. %90 percent DR means you're pretty much invincible. Yes, VATS took the player controls away but at the same time made your character invulnerable, which is a broken RPG game mechanic as far as I'm concerned in any conceivable way.

 

I wonder what the rationale was for making every single VATS attack a slomo event.

 

To me, on the surface, when coupled with the ludicrously violent animations, there appears no point except to rub the players face in violent animations over and over again.

 

But maybe they were just thinking of how to do some sort of bullettime-esque feature and over did it.

 

Also, speaking pragmatically, with the amount of combat in the game, it must be rather wearisome to use VATS all or most of the time.

 

But again, it is optional, which is really the best approach.

"Over did it" is right on the spot.

 

Bethesda did a lot of good things, but took almost all of them to the extremes (see: VATS). FO3 shined with its variety, FO:NV will shine with its balance. I hope.

 

 

Oh, and options. You can never have too many options. MOAR OPTIONS DAMMIT!

Erm...

 

The only problem with making everything optional:

Too many choices / long menus confuse some (most) average players, or they just don't bother. This can easily be overcome with preset option sets (much like low/medium/high graphics settings or easy/normal/hard difficulty settings, which are already present in any modern game I can think of).

 

 

I got as tired of limbs exploding off in FALLOUT 3 as I did people slowly being ripped apart by bullets on a critical death in Fallout 1 & 2 (or even the slow as molasses collapse and bleed out animation).

But maybe they were just thinking of how to do some sort of bullettime-esque feature and over did it.

 

This is what I thought it was, what with the camera sometimes closing in on the PC's face and following a bullet to its targer.

 

Sadly most of the reality of VATS was that you were looking at a closeup of a supermutant's chin as your character unloaded a gun into his head while blocky blood spewed over the screen.

Again, Bethesda "meaning good" but not being able to deliver.

 

Let's settle this: Most gamers enjoy blowing up their enemies to bits. There's no escaping from that.

 

And no, imo, if done correctly it never gets old. Again, imo, Bethesda's (FO3) death / dismemberment animations got old pretty quickly, while FO1&2's didn't. I played FO1 with Bloody Mess and never got bored with it. I took Bloody Mess in FO3, killed a couple of guys, then immediately reloaded my save from just before leveling up. Disgusting. Not hilarious disgusting, boring disgusting.

 

I have some doubts about Diablo 3 for the exact same reason. Is it so hard to achieve that comical & fluent effect in 3D engines / models? Hmm...

 

 

 

Edit: Big a** post for the new page. Enjoy.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Nemo0071

[Wombat]

Is it so hard to achieve that comical & fluent effect in 3D engines / models? Hmm...

Hmmm? Haven't you come across with what I have read in these boards? Reading about the explosion physics of FO:NV and the usage of PhisX in Dungeon Siege, Dark Messiah reminded me of Dark Messiah (I haven't played it except the demo, though).

Ice Sliding I wonder why they couldn't integrate it with the game play in a way such as knock-back effects rather than just kicking, though. For example, while using heavy weapons such as flail maul, and warhammer and/or employing sweeping blows of pole weapons in appropriate environments, cornering the opponents into falling could have been satisfying.

[Thorton_AP]

Except for the part I scratched, I agree completely.

 

I found the game actually more challenging at parts when I played exclusively with vats, because it meant waiting for it to cooldown a lot.

[Walsingham]

Oh, and options. You can never have too many options. MOAR OPTIONS DAMMIT!

Erm...

 

The only problem with making everything optional:

Too many choices / long menus confuse some (most) average players, or they just don't bother. This can easily be overcome with preset option sets (much like low/medium/high graphics settings or easy/normal/hard difficulty settings, which are already present in any modern game I can think of).

 

 

For those dimwits who are easily confused you simply make 'set menus' like in a chinese restaurant. That way people can steretype themselves, or they can ultra-customise. Job done.

[Nemo0071]

Is it so hard to achieve that comical & fluent effect in 3D engines / models? Hmm...

Hmmm? Haven't you come across with what I have read in these boards? Reading about the explosion physics of FO:NV and the usage of PhisX in Dungeon Siege, Dark Messiah reminded me of Dark Messiah (I haven't played it except the demo, though).

Ice Sliding I wonder why they couldn't integrate it with the game play in a way such as knock-back effects rather than just kicking, though. For example, while using heavy weapons such as flail maul, and warhammer and/or employing sweeping blows of pole weapons in appropriate environments, cornering the opponents into falling could have been satisfying.

The videos were nice, but I think you missed my point. There's always "alternative" fun to be had in games, I had a very good time with physics in HL2 and FO3 myself... I was talking purely about visuals. Something the 2D sprites did that the 3D imagery just can't do in the same way. Hard to explain.

 

About knockback; I think it's harder to present realistically on "living" things then on ragdolls. Why else the super mutants (hell, even raiders) in FO3 didn't even flinch when hit with a super sledge or something? (I mean they "slide" a bit backwards, but the model in itself stays rigid/solid, maybe shows a pre-animated "I'm hit in the head" animation occasionally, and that's it.)

 

I found the game actually more challenging at parts when I played exclusively with vats, because it meant waiting for it to cooldown a lot.

I think you found it challenging because you still "gimped" your game, only in a different way (different than using only Real-Time Combat). When you use RTC and VATS when appropriate you see that the latter gives a HUGE advantage (and that's not even counting the flawed RTC )

 

Think of it like this:

The best combat option in FO3 is RTC 20% of the time, and VATS 80% of the time. You cut out the 20%.

[Nemo0071]

Oh, and options. You can never have too many options. MOAR OPTIONS DAMMIT!

Erm...

 

The only problem with making everything optional:

Too many choices / long menus confuse some (most) average players, or they just don't bother. This can easily be overcome with preset option sets (much like low/medium/high graphics settings or easy/normal/hard difficulty settings, which are already present in any modern game I can think of).

 

 

For those dimwits who are easily confused you simply make 'set menus' like in a chinese restaurant. That way people can steretype themselves, or they can ultra-customise. Job done.

 

Exactly.

 

They don't even have to be dimwits. Like I said some people just don't bother with customization. They just want to get into the "real action" in 2-3 clicks. It's simply another kind of personal preference, I respect that.

[Wombat]

For those dimwits who are easily confused you simply make 'set menus' like in a chinese restaurant. That way people can steretype themselves, or they can ultra-customise. Job done.

When you failed to figure out how to configure a word processing app, it's because programmers/designers' fault and, if someone is overwhelmed by a menu at a restaurant, it's because he/she is "dimwit"?

 

The videos were nice, but I think you missed my point. There's always "alternative" fun to be had in games, I had a very good time with physics in HL2 and FO3 myself... I was talking purely about visuals. Something the 2D sprites did that the 3D imagery just can't do in the same way. Hard to explain.

Well then, let's see how Obsidian will deal with their melee special attack (sequences?) in FO:NV.

 

About knockback; I think it's harder to present realistically on "living" things then on ragdolls. Why else the super mutants (hell, even raiders) in FO3 didn't even flinch when hit with a super sledge or something? (I mean they "slide" a bit backwards, but the model in itself stays rigid/solid, maybe shows a pre-animated "I'm hit in the head" animation occasionally, and that's it.)

Yes, now I remember that Sawyer explained this...it's easier to shoot ragdolls into air than making it react faithfully to physics. In Oblivion, though, I found the target stop motions when hit by arrows, though. In fact, when fighting with an NPC, I shot arrows when the opponent is going to hit my fellow NPC, which effectively canceled the attack.

[Thorton_AP]

I found the game actually more challenging at parts when I played exclusively with vats, because it meant waiting for it to cooldown a lot.

I think you found it challenging because you still "gimped" your game, only in a different way (different than using only Real-Time Combat). When you use RTC and VATS when appropriate you see that the latter gives a HUGE advantage (and that's not even counting the flawed RTC )

 

No ****. Never said otherwise. But I wanted to play the game utilizing only my character skill, not my player skill. Oh wait hold on let me strikethrough some text I figured that would have been fairly blatantly obvious.

 

This wasn't a discussion about the "appropriate" use of VATS. I said that when I played the game using exclusively VATS I enjoyed it. You then decided to illustrate be an ass and strike it out and say you disagreed.

 

Might as well have just misquoted me and said "Fixed!" Or is that too 2008 now?

Edited June 26, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Nemo0071]

I found the game actually more challenging at parts when I played exclusively with vats, because it meant waiting for it to cooldown a lot.

I think you found it challenging because you still "gimped" your game, only in a different way (different than using only Real-Time Combat). When you use RTC and VATS when appropriate you see that the latter gives a HUGE advantage (and that's not even counting the flawed RTC )

 

No ****. Never said otherwise. But I wanted to play the game utilizing only my character skill, not my player skill. Oh wait hold on let me strikethrough some text I figured that would have been fairly blatantly obvious.

 

This wasn't a discussion about the "appropriate" use of VATS. I said that when I played the game using exclusively VATS I enjoyed it. You then decided to illustrate be an ass and strike it out and say you disagreed.

 

Might as well have just misquoted me and said "Fixed!" Or is that too 2008 now?

What's with the attitute?

in multiple threads, to boot

 

 

*shrug*

[Walsingham]

They don't even have to be dimwits. Like I said some people just don't bother with customization. They just want to get into the "real action" in 2-3 clicks. It's simply another kind of personal preference, I respect that.

 

That's just a different sort of customization.

 

I'm sorry, but while I can see you are trying to be nice and inclusive, if some fethwit can't be arsed to do ten seconds of customising, and as a consequence the rest of us have to put up with THEIR configuration preferences for 60 hours of gameplay then said fethwit can **** off. They can **** off into a ****ing bonfire, and be burned to ashes. I will **** on those ashes, load them into a rocket, and fire them into the heart of the ****ing sun. A process which will be dramatic, but no doubt fail to hold their insectile attention.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Walsingham

[Wombat]

Quite a splendid emotional burst for otherwise a simple usability issue. However, a desirable solution here is that just an option of turning off VATS related sequences, isn't it? Since there is no direct answer yet, I made a search in Beth board and find an answer. Indeed, strictly speaking, the answer is just for the newly added VATS sequences for explosion but it's quite unlikely for the designers to have not done the same to other VATS sequences, as long as there are no (technical) obstacles, IMO.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Quite a splendid emotional burst for otherwise a simple usability issue. However, a desirable solution here is that just an option of turning off VATS related sequences, isn't it? Since there is no direct answer yet, I made a search in Beth board and find an answer. Indeed, strictly speaking, the answer is just for the newly added VATS sequences for explosion but it's quite unlikely for the designers to have not done the same to other VATS sequences, as long as there are no (technical) obstacles, IMO.

 

As long as the player is still sped up it wouldn't change balance, otherwise, I don't think there are TECHNICAL obstacles, but the balance of VATS will change quite drastically.

[Gorgon]

Speaking of options, why not either key VATS cool down times to difficulty level or have a separate slider for it. I'm not a programmer but that sounds like something incredibly easy to implement.

[Nemo0071]

I can see you are trying to be nice and inclusive

And I can see you want those options... like... want them BAD.

 

ten seconds of customising

If we were talking about character customization, I'd laugh my a** off right now. If it takes less than half an hour, it doesn't count.

That, or I'm a perfectionist and/or control freak.

[Walsingham]

I can see you are trying to be nice and inclusive

And I can see you want those options... like... want them BAD.

 

 

Even I don't get that upset about computer games. I actually had a similar issue come up in a much more serious context, which was the dry brush if you like.

 

I always get enraged with wishy-washy attempts to make everyone happy. Particularly when you do so by taking power out of the hands of people smart enough to make themselves happy for the - quite illusory - sake of bloody halfwits who may or may not exist.

[Wombat]

As long as the player is still sped up it wouldn't change balance, otherwise, I don't think there are TECHNICAL obstacles, but the balance of VATS will change quite drastically.

??? If I understand correctly, we have been talking of just close-up slow-mo death sequences.

 

Particularly when you do so by taking power out of the hands of people smart enough to make themselves happy for the - quite illusory - sake of bloody halfwits who may or may not exist.

Talking of illusion, here, the reason behind why Bethesda didn't make them optional is Nemo0071's guess and you are trying to argue over it. However, what you want is just the option, as I see it.

[WorstUsernameEver]

As long as the player is still sped up it wouldn't change balance, otherwise, I don't think there are TECHNICAL obstacles, but the balance of VATS will change quite drastically.

??? If I understand correctly, we have been talking of just close-up slow-mo death sequences.

 

Problem is, ALL the sequences in VATS after you go 'OK' are slow-mo. It's not just the moment when the enemies heads are blown, there's a slow-motion shot of the character shooting and even freakin' reloading.

And the character is, of course, sped up when you compare it to the enemies which move at normal speed.

[Wombat]

Problem is, ALL the sequences in VATS after you go 'OK' are slow-mo. It's not just the moment when the enemies heads are blown, there's a slow-motion shot of the character shooting and even freakin' reloading.

And the character is, of course, sped up when you compare it to the enemies which move at normal speed.

Thanx for the explanation. Then, Bethesda seems to have tried to do turn-based combat factors in the context Gamebryo for the old FO fans but let's do away with all the guessing game. In any case, even pragmatically, it seems to be quite tough for Obsidian if they chose to tackle with the "issue." Like other people said, all realtime seems to be the best "option."

[Aram]

J.E., describe the ammunition reloading process so I can see how much influence I clearly had on the creation of this game.

 

Will I have my name in the credits?

[Nemo0071]

I will definitely use it sometime, in appropriate context.

 

 

I always get enraged with wishy-washy attempts to make everyone happy. Particularly when you do so by taking power out of the hands of people smart enough to make themselves happy

You CAN make everyone happy WITHOUT taking anyone's power (read: smart people can be made happy, too).

 

That was my point.

[Wombat]

FromPalgn's E3 handson

Another update to the original gameplay is the slow-motion 'kill cam'. Whereas originally it was a treat reserved for kills made using the VATS system, now it's seen after every kill. This may annoy some people, and it can be turned off, but for us it was extraordinarily fun for such a simple addition. It meant we could do things like shotgun someone in the face and watch the giblets fly without having to resort to VATS, or plant C4 all around an unsuspecting character, then detonate it and watch them fly over a nearby house in slow motion.

(Bold is mine) Whoops. So, actually, in FO:NV, the slow-motion kill seems to "invade into" realtime mode...kind of ironic turn-out for all the "Beth forcing slow motion kill on the players" argument. Now I wonder how Obsidian designers felt about the reaction here. Well, it can be turned off, so, I guess there is nothing to lose, at least.

[HoonDing]

Another update to the original gameplay is the slow-motion 'kill cam'. Whereas originally it was a treat reserved for kills made using the VATS system, now it's seen after every kill.

[Aram]

[J.E. Sawyer]

It isn't seen after every kill and it's optional.

[WorstUsernameEver]

It isn't seen after every kill and it's optional.

 

Can the kill cam be used to confirm/cancel goals, or Blatter vetoed it?

Mind you, that's important, depending on your answer I may decide whether to buy the game or not.

Edited June 28, 2010 by WorstUsernameEver