Israel butchers civilians in international waters

[Humodour]

An insightful article on the situation with fresh details: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06...m?section=world

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why was this ship boarded in PITCH-BLACK in the morning by COMMANDOS in the first place?!

How else would you board it if they weren't cooperating?

[Humodour]

Why was this ship boarded in PITCH-BLACK in the morning by COMMANDOS in the first place?!

How else would you board it if they weren't cooperating?

 

They had nothing to cooperate with! Their ship was stormed without fore-warning during the twilight hours of the morning. If you're going to board and search a vessel as a responsible policing force, you don't ATTACK IT WHEN EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ASLEEP. Open your eyes and do a bit of bloody reading before you post for once.

 

Also, Egypt has opened up their end of the blockade to allow these ships through, so where does that leave Israel now, legally?

[213374U]

Heh. Except for a few honourable exceptions, this thread is a pretty good show of what passes for "common wisdom" these days. Yep, everyone's an international law expert, hardened soldier/law enforcement professional with years of experience under his belt, AND was there to give a first-hand account of how events developed, to complete with inside info on engagement rules, operational guidelines and objectives at the political level, on both sides. Ah, the internets...

 

"Never miss a good chance to shut up."

- Will Rogers

Edited June 1, 2010 by 213374U

[Humodour]

Heh. Except for a few honourable exceptions, this thread is a pretty good show of what passes for "common wisdom" these days. Yep, everyone's an international law expert, hardened soldier/law enforcement professional with years of experience under his belt, AND was there to give a first-hand account of how events developed, to complete with inside info on engagement rules, operational guidelines and objectives at the political level, on both sides. Ah, the internets...

 

"Never miss a good chance to shut up."

- Will Rogers

 

EXACTLY the same things being discussed in this 'internet' thread are being discussed in 'real-life' newspapers, on TV, in caf

[Gorgon]

"Never miss a good chance to shut up."

- Will Rogers

Why don't you lead the charge, run with it, take your own advice as it were.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why was this ship boarded in PITCH-BLACK in the morning by COMMANDOS in the first place?!

How else would you board it if they weren't cooperating?

 

They had nothing to cooperate with! Their ship was stormed without fore-warning during the twilight hours of the morning. If you're going to board and search a vessel as a responsible policing force, you don't ATTACK IT WHEN EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ASLEEP. Open your eyes and do a bit of bloody reading before you post for once.

They were ordered to stop first. And EVERYONE was asleep? Even the crew? And it wasn't attacked, it was boarded, it was the soldiers who got attacked. And btw, remember what I said about Turkish Islamists? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...nd-the-IHH.html

The claims remain controversial, though IHH's public statements are aggressive. "It's an Islamist organisationas it has been deeply involved with Hamas for some time," said Henri Barkey, an analyst for the Carnegie Endowment. "Some of its members went on the boat saying that they had written their last will and testament."

Edited June 1, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[surreal]

They had nothing to cooperate with! Their ship was stormed without fore-warning during the twilight hours of the morning.

...

 

Oh, they for sure didn't know that Israel was going to board them. Those clubs, knives and axes were actually construction material for Gaza.

Oh, and since they didn't know that they would be boarded, they also brought innocent civilians with them.

 

LOL

 

EDIT:

There is also an update! Israel decided to deliver the goods by themselves, thus concluding this bizarre fiasco (at least from my POV).

But of course, don't let the facts confuse you! Israel plans to steal most of the goods for themselves. They're just that evil.

Edited June 1, 2010 by surreal

[Nemo0071]

They were ordered to stop first. And EVERYONE was asleep? Even the crew? And it wasn't attacked, it was boarded, it was the soldiers who got attacked. And btw, remember what I said about Turkish Islamists?

Oh, they for sure didn't know that Israel was going to board them. Those clubs, knives and axes were actually construction material for Gaza.

Oh, and since they didn't know that they would be boarded, they also brought innocent civilians with them.

Yes, they were warned. And yes, they didn't listen. Because like quite a few people mentioned, the convoy's intention was to get through the blockade. Israel's blockade. A multinational aid convoy intentionally tried to breach Israel's blockade, and some of them got killed instead. Am I the only one seeing a problem here? Seriously?

 

Members of an extremist group were on board and they had knives/pipes and they used them in self-defense, and this justifies Israel's action... how, exactly? You guys make the extremists sound like the victim.

 

And they didn't bring innocent civilians to use as human shield, they infiltrated/joined a civilian aid group. These two are ridiculously different.

[Calax]

^Why should they be given leeway for defending their country?

 

Also, none of their neighbours is stupid enough to attack Israel directly nowadays. Which is exactly the reason for shenanigans like this.

 

EDIT:

Defense usually implies imminent threat.

 

As to "sworn to annihilate them", wouldn't England have used the same situations and been raked over the coals for the same situations if they pulled a blockade like this of Ireland because of the IRA?

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Here's a peace activist from the flotilla

 

Here are peace activists singing about killing Jews :

[heathen]

I don't think anyones claimed they all were peace activists, there were definitely political activists on board as well. I don't see what that has to do with Israel attacking what was definitely a humanitarian aid ship, even if there were extremists on board in the middle of the night and killing everyone who resisted?

Edited June 1, 2010 by heathen

[surreal]

And they didn't bring innocent civilians to use as human shield, they infiltrated/joined a civilian aid group. These two are ridiculously different.

 

I can totally see that picture:

 

Swedish guy: "Wow, that's a nice pipe there! Are you a plumber?"

Infiltrator #1: "Yes, of course I am! I plan to fix all the sanitation problems in Gaza!"

Swedish guy (to another infiltrator): "Damn, that's a great axe right there! But why would you need one?"

Infiltrator #2: "Oh, I need it to chop down the trees in order to gather wood in order to build houses"

Swedish guy (to another infiltrator): "Man, that's one hell of knife! Why do you keep it so sharp though?"

Infiltrator #3: "Someone needs to cut the meat for the meal, the knife has to be extra sharp."

 

Infiltrated! Yeah right!

Either those civilians are extremely stupid to let them on board, or they weren't even given a choice.

I'm not sure what to think... I sure hope for the second though.

Edited June 1, 2010 by surreal

[Nemo0071]

And they didn't bring innocent civilians to use as human shield, they infiltrated/joined a civilian aid group. These two are ridiculously different.

Infiltrated! Yeah right!

Either those civilians are extremely stupid to let them on board, or they weren't even given a choice.

I'm not sure what to think... I sure hope for the second though.

At least you have a sense of humor. Sort of.

 

They weren't given a choice,

-OR-

They accepted the extremists on board as the "muscle" in case something like this happens, instead of the extremists dragging them along as human shield.

 

Of course, there's always the chance they hid their "weapons" instead of waving them around, you know. Honestly, I don't know what to make of this either.

 

edit:

Here's a peace activist from the flotilla

Dis not peace aktivist. You are mistake.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Nemo0071

[Monte Carlo]

There are a number of points made above that illustrate what I'm talking about when I mention the Holocaust. To wit, that for younger people the event is losing it's significance. Conflating the Shoah with other current crises is a good example, so is the inability to conflate the mindset that led to this incident with the events of the past.

 

Guys, please think about it. I genuinely don't mean to be patronizing but I'm prepared to be. The philosophical wellspring of your society, the paradigm of existence fed to you with your mother's milk is this:

 

We are alone. We are beset by enemies. We allowed ourselves to be put into cattle trucks and taken to death factories. Never again.

 

Seriously, forget the whole God / Chosen People schtick (and remember, some Hasidim are virulently opposed to Israel).

 

So, Calax, yes we need to unambiguously tip-toe around the issue of the Holocaust. It's in living memory. No, none of the African dictatorships you reference are as bad as the Nazis, not even Rwanda. Yes, the idea that this tactic, this flotilla, is the thin end of an ingeniously constructed wedge to weaken the state and people of Israel is utterly relevant.

 

Please note that I'm not defending Israel's action in this instance. I am, however, understanding it. Just as I understand Hamas. And having done that I've made my mind up who is the least worst, who I'd prefer to prevail in the Middle and Near East.

[surreal]

@Nemo0071

I can accept that the extremist forced their way onto the ship, but in this scenario the question that should be asked is how the hell this happen? Wasn't it foreseen at all? I wouldn't believe it in the world!

 

Alternatively, accepting extremists as a "muscle" is not a very genuine move for peace activist, you'll have to agree with me. Especially extremists with "tools of the trade". You can hide a knife,

but hiding an axe is far more challenging. Peace activists should negate the whole idea of violent actions.

Besides, we're talking academia here. Not stupid people by a long shot (I genuinely hope so), and yet let's suppose, that they relaxed their "peace" terms and allowed the extremists to be on their ship. It's not that much of a brainer that if (or more precisely "when") the ship will be boarded, **** will hit the fan! However, without the "muscle" it's all peace and flowers. If soldiers start shooting anything else than paint-ball, then there would be a real problem.

I wouldn't even argue if that was the case! You'd see me protesting in the front lines actually.

 

Why would you need a muscle when you're much stronger without it, if your sole goal is to help the people in Gaza (and they need all the help they can get)? Academia people don't use muscles, they mostly use their brains.

There are a lot of questions about this story that should've been asked, but no one dares to ask them! Why?

I know that's it's far easier to blame Israel for all the problems that the Arab nation goes through, but eventually questions will arise. And answers will be demanded.

Edited June 1, 2010 by surreal

[Altered Idol]

I won't argue with the fact that the Holocaust has shaped the attitudes of Israel and I don't think anyone can blame them for that. No-one should ever have had to go through that and there is no way they could be the same after it.

 

But that doesnt mean the international community should allow them free reign to do what they like. This is just the latest incident in a long list of actions that would have been declared and outrage if conducted by say Iran or another "Axis of Evil" country. The use of allied countries passports to conduct a political assassination in another sovereign country by Mossad is something that should be condemned, as it would be with most other countries. But no, Israel gets away with a talking to and a slap on the wrist.

 

The unwavering support they receive from the United States has created an aura of invicibility around the Israeli government. The "we can do anything cos America has got out back" attitude is only going to increase tensions and problems for Israeli, not reduce them. No country should be beyond scrutiny.

 

I don't agree with Hamas and will not condone their actions but neither will I accept the notion that because the Jewish people were brutally murdered 70 years ago by an extremist European organisation, that Israel can simply do what it likes.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Where did I say it excused them? Straw-manning.

[Nemo0071]

Monte, I respect your open-mindedness, if I read your post correctly. But if we dig up the past, and dig it up thoroughly, we'll eventually find how Israel settled on that soil in the first place, which as far as I know was Palestinian/Arabic land originally; that's why I can't justify anything Israel is doing in the area. That's also the reason I was trying to stay on the topic (this single event, the deaths in the convoy/flotilla).

 

If I'm mistaken, i.e. if that land is rightfully Israel's soil, I'm also open to sources that you might point me towards. I'm quite interested in this subject.

[Monte Carlo]

By the way, maybe these guys will take much-needed food supplies to the People's Socialist Nirvana of North Korea next. For some reason, this regime never seems to trouble them, even when starving their own people or torpedoing foreign naval vessels.

[Altered Idol]

That wasn't directed at you, I was simply stating my opinion.

 

I just don't like any country that seems to be above the law or beyond scrutiny.

 

It stinks of hypocrisy and double standards and I cannot abide by that.

[Nemo0071]

accepting extremists as a "muscle" is not a very genuine move for peace activist

I never said they were "peace activists", mind you. I said they were an "aid convoy" headed for Gaza.

 

without the "muscle" it's all peace and flowers.

Without the muscle, they return home. Like it happened / will happen with other boats.

 

Why would you need a muscle when you're much stronger without it, if your sole goal is to help the people in Gaza

If your sole goal is to help people in Gaza, you need to get your cargo through that blockade. It's that simple.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily agree with their methods, but I can't condemn them for trying to help people either.

[Monte Carlo]

Maybe next time they can hire a fleet of lorries and take stuff to, say, Zimbabwe?

[Nemo0071]

^ In all seriousness, why not?

[Monte Carlo]

^ In all seriousness, why not?

 

Because they're not Israel.

 

This is what I've been banging on about for ten pages. Israel is important, it stands for something bigger. It's Fort Laramie, a dirty, battered outpost of Western democracy. Those who would see a shadow of Iranian-style dictatorship descend over the entire region want it destroyed. They are using multiple tactics, including this old favourite from the KGB playbook of using 'progressive elements.' Am I suggesting that this flotilla is on a hotline to Tehran? Hell, no. Am I suggesting that the European liberal left is being subtly manipulated, that it's acidic self-hate is being hi-jacked? Hell yes.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Monte Carlo