What's with developers' obsession with D&D?

[Slowtrain]

A good story can save any crpg, even a D&D one. But good stories are so rare in crpgs that I simply don't expect one. So, for me, pretty much everything else has to carry the game. ANd D&D's rule system and character development systems just aren't very interesting. The monsters can be cool, but I've seen them all now a billion times. New monsters plz, and lots of them. Thanks.

 

Sure not all crpg specific systems are great. Might and Magic is pretty tepid. Morrowind's system blew chunks. But at least they are something different. Different clases/skills, different stats, different weapons, different monsters.

 

My kingdom for some variety!

 

So for me devs dependence on D&D is problematic in 2 ways:

 

1) Lack of variety. which equals boring boring boring after its been done a few times.

 

2) Its not a real good system for a crpg to begin with.

[Guaigean]

Ok, well, you also have to look at sales. Sadly, the wishes of the loyal fanbase are really not what a developer must consider. That is, unless that fanbase is willing to buy 1000 copies each. The majority is what counts with sales, and many people know D&D. That means when D&D comes out, more people know the name, more are willing to buy it. Any half assed D&D game will sell. People may rate it poorly, but the next D&D game to come out will also sell. That's just the way it is. A new exciting set of rules on the other hand, scares people. People go with a name they know, and so sometimes the devs have to too. Yes, it breeds very little originality, but game development isn't just a spare time, its also a business.

[Drakron]

Sorry, that crap son.

 

Tomb Raider serves as a GREAT example that the name alone does not sell, when TR became the same thing without inovations on plot or gameplay people drop it that is why TR:AoD failed, the fanbase moved away.

 

Anyone that plays RPGs knows that D&D titles usually blow, they only try then after knowing more about it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Anyone that plays RPGs knows that D&D titles usually blow, they only try then after knowing more about it.

D&D titles usually enter in at the top spot for at least a week or two. Which would tend to contradict that theory. Even games like PORII and TOEE which are widely acknowledged as total crap managed this.

 

If anything D&D games enjoy strong initial sales regardless.

[Hell Kitty]

TR:AoD failed because it was a really poor game, not because of a fanbase losing interest.

[Arkan]

I'm going to add my worthless two cents here...

 

It's not that DnD somehow hinders creativity. Some people might say it does because of all the restrictions, but devolopers go in knowing these, so they should have already taken them into consideration.

 

Gameplay and story is where the creativity comes from. It is still possible to have an intriguing and engrossing story when using DnD, it's just that many developers want to 'cash in' on the franchise, so they put the name on it, call it an action rpg, and give us a plain ol' done-before hack-n'-slash.

 

It possible comes down to 'lazinesss' more than lack of creativity.

[Slowtrain]

OK, Arkan, I'll buy that.

 

I will definitely agree that if devs really worked at created an engrossing story and gameworld then the importance of which ruleset was used would definitely be minimal.

 

Sadly, creating engrossing stories and gameworlds is pretty much beyond the reach of most dev teams for whatever reason.

 

So, you're left with depending on other apsects of the game to make it worth playing. And the rule system is what covers most of these aspects.

 

I was highly looking forward to Jefferson because it seemed that there would finally be a D&D game that was really worth playing, a game where the ruleset was less imporatnat than the story and the world...

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Gameplay and story is where the creativity comes from. It is still possible to have an intriguing and engrossing story when using DnD, it's just that many developers want to 'cash in' on the franchise, so they put the name on it, call it an action rpg, and give us a plain ol' done-before hack-n'-slash.

 

It possible comes down to 'lazinesss' more than lack of creativity.

Thats true but D&D dosnt leave much room for originality either. Anyone familiar with the monster manual (or even previous games) will instantly be familiar with most of the creatures.

 

While you can say the same about FF , it does after all have a pretty established bestiary. They do shake up the abilities from game to game as well as introduce a few new creatures. Where as D&D games tend to be fairly routine when it comes to the restrictions placed on the system and very unwilling to change.

 

Generally though these are the very things that fans of that particular game want to see. More of the same suits them fine and as long as there are enough of those people out there. Developers would be missing out by not catering to them.

 

Obviously coming up with the sort of content that D&D offers from your imagination is quite a daunting task.

[Slowtrain]

But the funny thing SP is that so many DMs the world over manage to run interesting campaigns using the D&D source material. CRPG designers seem unabale to tap into this creativity for whatever reaon.

 

Part of it is no doubt a result of limitations imposed by WoTC since a crpg is a "licensed" product for D&D. PArt of it of course is also that a cpu cannot replace am experienced and skilled DM in creating and working a campaign on the fly. Which of course is why most D&D games arew dungeon hacks, because that's what the CPU does best.

 

Which is of course why D&D should not be used in crpgs.

 

It is really a shame about Jeff because I really wanted to see how JE was going to function within the D&D limitaions.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

But the funny thing SP is that so many DMs the world over manage to run interesting campaigns using the D&D source material. CRPG designers seem unabale to tap into this creativity for whatever reaon.

 

Part of it is no doubt a result of limitations imposed by WoTC since a crpg is a "licensed" product for D&D. PArt of it of course is also that a cpu cannot replace am experienced and skilled DM in creating and working a campaign on the fly. Which of course is why most D&D games arew dungeon hacks, because that's what the CPU does best.

 

Which is of course why D&D should not be used in crpgs.

 

It is really a shame about Jeff because I really wanted to see how JE was going to function within the D&D limitaions.

Thats true but then we as DM's dont have to pay an iota of attention to WOTC

Also many games are created around the group playing it. So if you do a lot of travelling and play in different groups you will see a lot of DM styles. Mine is generally for very dramatic plots but with only very scant attention paid to the rules (one reason why 3e dosnt exite me at all). And probably explains my apathy when it comes to rules in general.

 

I can say without reservation that 95% or more of my sessions would be deemed unsuitable by WOTC.

 

It's a very good reason why it shouldnt be used. But then games are judged by the market and if the market laps up D&D like candy then people are going to make D&D games. Unless the market changes then there isnt really much incentive unless you have the sort of name that can carry a product in its own right. Bioware possibly with Jade Empire for example.

 

Much of Jeff was deemed unsuitable by WOTC I think at least in initial draft. The difference to this and the BG era was that TSR didnt really have much interest outside of PnP in keeping control of things. This gave designers a lot more freedom to move around the rules.

[Slowtrain]

I can say without reservation that 95% or more of my sessions would be deemed unsuitable by WOTC.

*demands that someone somewhere hire SP to design crpgs*

 

B)

[Synaesthesia]

I can say without reservation that 95% or more of my sessions would be deemed unsuitable by WOTC. 

*demands that someone somewhere hire SP to design crpgs*

 

B)

D:

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

*demands that someone somewhere hire SP to design crpgs*

 

B)

Thanks for the compliment ,however I'm sure there are lots of people who could do a better job than I could. I did some PnP design many years ago but I have great admiration for those who can focus over the entire length of the project. That and my very short stint with 3do pretty much sums up my professional design experience (so its not much).

 

Perhaps after he has had a break to recharge his batteries JE Sawyer will come up with something along the same lines as Jefferson but without the WOTC baggage.

[Judge Hades]

It kind of boils down to this. Hack and Slash DnD is boring for it has all been done before. I don't see much difference of a Bugbear in ToEE than one in Icewind Dale 2 so it all comes down to the presentation of story.

 

The story of a DnD CRPG will determine the value of future game products, not the rules or the way it is implemented. That is why IWD2 is superior to ToEE (just barely).

 

Also I just want to say that PnP RPGs should remain PnP while Computer RPGs should have their own rules system that works specifically on the computer. Doesn't take rocket science to see that SPECIAL is superior to d20 on the computer while d20 is superior to SPECIAL in PnP.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't particularly care much for D&D. I'd prefer if it stopped being used in CRPGs, not because it allegedly stunts developer creativity, but because of how its overal handled. There's not really a reason as to why it shouldn't be used on grounds of it being a recognized brand name: it draws people in, and generates revenue, so why not use it?

 

On the other hand, i feel its use is usually just validated on the namesake->revenue ratio. Its ruleset isn't perfect, neither the best. Its source material isn't exactly excellent either, and likely, a good, competent writer - or group of writers - can create an equally or more compelling collection of source material. If the consumer, on a whole, doesn't care about the rules, or that the concept of creative license breaks the canon of the source material, defeats the purpose of using D&D for CRPGs. If you buy into the Rule Zero apologism, then you're conceding that the system itself, and its supporting elements, aren't important. If using and abusing creative license is the way to go, than most settings and rule systems can be exploited under this guideline.

[Spook]

A SPECIAL based game would be fun to play, even if it was fantacy , I think. But a FO fan as I'm I would prefer it in SF games.

 

As for knowing mosters, there is quite different monsters in a lot of the settings. Not a orc as far as the eye can see in Darksun as an example, but plenty of unknown ones for those that never played the setting. Ravenloft had unique monsters that you could not just run over to and hack to pieces, but needed special story and adventure to even get to know how it could be destroyed (liked the horror setting of it as well). Al-quadin was made like the old stories of alladin and Sinibad. Birthright was also different in that it involved intrigue and building of empires as well as linking adventures to those. Even some of the setting to old DD (not to be confused with DD3.0 ) had quite interesting settings like the hollowed world and redcoast (all the countries actualy had a theme).

 

Forgotten Realm in the usual setting (there is a lot of that world that never been used for games) just seam stale right now. It has been done so many times now.

[Arkan]

A SPECIAL based game would be fun to play, even if it was fantacy ,

I submit to the jury, Exhibit A: Lionheart

[Judge Hades]

The technical aspects of Lionheart wasn't all that bad. If hey tweaked it a little to make it turn base the rules system of Lionheart would be very workable in a fantasy CRPG. The story aspects of Lionheart needed to be completely revamped however but the game wouldn't stop me from buying another fantasy based SPECIAL game.

[Slowtrain]

The problems with Lionheart had nothing to do with SPECIAL.

 

Lionheart was a hugely flawed game because of the developers who made it.

 

No matter how good the rule system, and I agree with Visc that SPECIAL is one of the superlative crpg rule systems, incompetent design will still kill a game.

[birdiedude]

Another problem with DnD and developers is that it seems the DnD people ended up being the "computer geeks" who got into the game industry. That basically means the ideals of a DnD game are what shapes most PC RPG's.

 

Personally I see this as a bad thing, as if does limit creativity in many respects. Things like the physically weak wizard who must conserve their spells . . . why not make a game with the whole premise being a body builder who can only use magicz

 

Japan doesn't seem to have had this problem to the same degree. Sure many of their battle systems are similar, but there seems to be more companies with more crazy ideas making games over there than here in America.

 

Anyway I'm interested in seeing the next few years of game development, as console kids are now reaching the age when they can enter into the industry and express their ideas. Maybe the fresh blood will eliminate some of the cliches DnD has subjected to PC games.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'd really like to do horror like Ravenloft which was one of my favourite settings. But getting that sort of atmosphere in a CRPG would be quite a challenge. If you dont mange to capture that feeling then the game feels like FR with a different suit on.

 

But I think the same applies to any of the more unusual D&D settings.And I think you are right that because they are less familiar they had more of a suprise value where as FR is pretty standard high fantasy fair with pretty standard high fantasy monsters.

 

Lionheart actually worked quite well in places but was terribly flawed in others. The combat speed was VERY fast and while you had lots of options like being able to target and sacrifice accuracy for speed,tons of spells (which were a pain in the arse because you could only have so many on the quickbar and they needed refreshing every 30 seconds). At the pace LH combat moves, well best of luck managing that on a regular basis.

 

However thats not to say it cant be done. It just requires you to match your control system to your options , something LH didnt manage to do.

 

SPECIAL works perfectly well in real time as can be seen from FOT so it's hardly limited to just TB games. It's simply a matter of getting the pacing right for what you are asking the player to do with the options you give them.

 

SPECIAL is also generic enough that you can adapt it very easily to any setting. But then again if you have a week to spare you can also come up with something just as good as SPECIAL,the hardest part is getting your stats to spell out something memorable . I converted it to work on a d20 a while ago and that didnt take long at all.

 

Want to play D&D using SPECIAL you can do that too so up yours WOTC As long as you dont try to publish that is.

[Slowtrain]

It was completely ridiculous that the Lionheart devs had to be dragged kicking and screaming just to put in a limited pause function.

 

I suppose it can be really hard to eat crow in such a vast amount, wot?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It was completely ridiculous that the Lionheart devs had to be dragged kicking and screaming just to put in a limited pause function.

 

I suppose it can be really hard to eat crow in such a vast amount, wot? 

It's not like I didnt ask I could see what was coming a mile off.

 

I wanted "body" targetting from the num pad so it was all one touch.

 

But the thing with targetting is really this.

 

If the game is turnbased then people are not going to notice the extra targetting time much anyway.

 

If you want to run targetting in real time it has to be done in a way that dosnt break the flow of the game. It also has to be useful enough that people will actually WANT to target,maybe even NEED to on occasion.

 

If something dies so easily that you dont need to target, well why bother ?

 

The best example I have seen would be Mechcommander. Targetting specific areas to knock out certain weapons was an incredibly useful feature. FF is a bit similiar but its really confined to boss battles only.

 

In FO targeting really not that important. If you have a 95% chance of a headshot, really little point shooting anywhere else. And in FO getting to a 95% headshot chance, really not difficult. I'd say with some certainty that the thrill of targetting in FO came from the various crits rather than because of any real useful function.

 

I'm a big fan of location based damage too. Rather than simply hitting the body you hit a random area unless you specifically aim at something with the associated penalties.

 

It also allows you to do things like directly damage a weapon, and or knock it from your hand. Few things end a fight so fast as realising your opponent has that sort of skill.

[Slowtrain]

targeting in RT should be pretty easy to implement though.

 

Just hold down a selection key while using the attack key. It means you have to use a second hand, but if you need to drink a health potion, you're probably too busy to be targetting somebody's groin anyway.

 

I don't think I ever used targeting in Mechcommander. I just bleew the crap out of the mechs and hoped for the best when it came to salvaging their smoking wrecks. Sometimes I would ease up and just hit a single short range laser if I could tell it was close to death so I didn't render it completely unsalvagable.

 

Targeting would have been more useful in MC if the game had been harder and actually required it.

[Drakron]

Well you missed a lot, in MC salvage mechs depended if the mech was destroyed or not.

 

I got a lot of clan mechs (and a Madcat early) because I ordered group target the head section that either killed the pilot or forced it to eject, make many missions easier that going around with Inner Sphere crap.

 

Now the funny part ... Mechwarrior series come from a tabletop game.