Mexifornia

[213374U]

This is fairly standard stuff at every school. The discipline code is the most telling part, as the boys were not adhering to number 1,2, and 4 when they intentionally baited other students.

*BUZZ!*

 

Almost, but no. (1) It wasn't an outburst or an aggression or anything that could have been averted with enough self-control, because they didn't feel they were doing anything wrong, nor have they been shown to afterwards. The VP being overruled later on further supports this.

 

(2) LOL! I can accept that the kids intended to bait... but how does that constitute a breach of anyone's rights? Is there a "right not to be baited", now?

 

(4) "Appropriate" social behavior is terribly vague. The fact that you can find many people in this very thread (and the school, etc) that seem to believe the kids did nothing wrong completely buries your argument that the kids were behaving in a "socially unappropriate manner", as by definition, it's a matter of opinion.

 

I wish people didn't have such a hard time telling the difference between their own mindsets and categorical imperatives.

[Volourn]

Even the school board made it very clearly the principla was in the wrong. They apologized on behalf of the school. And, anyone whose dealt with school boards knows, that's very rare for that happen espicially this quickly and so matter-of-factly.

 

The school was in the wrong, and they know it. And, any reasonable socially concious person knows it.

[Hurlshort]

I'm confused, if you believe that the students were intentionally baiting, exactly what are you getting at? Are you saying that no action should be taken when students bait one another?

[213374U]

No, I'm just attacking the idea that an obligation exists to "be nice to other people". Actions should be taken in order to avert the possible violence... not because there is a "right not to be baited".

[Hurlshort]

Even the school board made it very clearly the principla was in the wrong. They apologized on behalf of the school. And, anyone whose dealt with school boards knows, that's very rare for that happen espicially this quickly and so matter-of-factly.

 

The school was in the wrong, and they know it. And, any reasonable socially concious person knows it.

 

Yes, we already established that the principal was wrong. The issue at hand is whether any action was necessary by the administration. My argument is that a disciplinary action was not appropriate, but they would be remiss to not address the intentional baiting. If a situation had escalated between the 5 students and the ones celebrating Cinco De Mayo and the administrator had ignored the 5 students, I see that as a serious offense.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The crux of the matter is that wearing your own country's flag in your own country is now considered baiting. Are blacks also baiting KKK by being black, or should they all be like Michael Jackson?

[Hurlshort]

No, I'm just attacking the idea that an obligation exists to "be nice to other people". Actions should be taken in order to avert the possible violence... not because there is a "right not to be baited".

 

I'll be honest, that type of philosophy is not going to be all that successful if you ever go into education. That is essentially like trying to repair the dam after it bursts. You will find your job much easier if you establish a strong framework and tackle problems at their root.

 

I wish people didn't have such a hard time telling the difference between their own mindsets and categorical imperatives.

 

I found this line to be fairly condescending, but also very illuminating about your grasp of being a professional educator. It is not a job for everyone, it requires a certain type of mindset. That is why there is such a huge burnout rate, 50% of new teachers quit within the first 5 years. Given that it is a job with good benefits and 3 months of vacation, that is a surprisingly high number.

 

My job is easy because I run my classroom with respect. I establish the importance of respect right away and I stay on it. If a student starts baiting another, I get on it immediately. I don't let it fester because over the course of an entire year I would eventually lose control. I also maintain a balance, more carrot than stick, as the saying goes. The administrator went too far with the stick here, as we've established.

[Hurlshort]

The crux of the matter is that wearing your own country's flag in your own country is now considered baiting. Are blacks also baiting KKK by being black, or should they all be like Michael Jackson?

 

I'm pretty sure we moved past that like 5 pages ago. It doesn't matter what you put on, if you put it on with the objective of baiting, then you are baiting.

[Volourn]

"administration. My argument is that a disciplinary action was not appropriate, but they would be remiss to not address the intentional baiting. If a situation had escalated between the 5 students and the ones celebrating Cinco De Mayo and the administrator had ignored the 5 students, I see that as a serious offense."

 

You see wrong. If the situation had 'esclated' into a violent confrontation I would disicipline the ones who started the violence. At best, it's called aggravated assault for a reason. Do not punish potential victims.

 

But, hey, I guess women who wear revealing clothes are evil punks since they are baiting potnetial rapists right so it's their fualt if they get raped just like it be these boys' fault if they get assault for wearing flags of their country in that country. Come on, now.

 

 

" It doesn't matter what you put on, if you put it on with the objective of baiting, then you are baiting. "

 

So, like I said ebfore, if a Montreal fan wears a Cannadiens jersey to the Penguins arena, they are evil and baiting? Hmm... And, they get what they deserve? Does. not. compute. Stop blaming victims 9or potential victims) for the crimes of others.

 

 

"educator. It is not a job for everyone, it requires a certain type of mindset. That is why there is such a huge burnout rate, 50% of new teachers quit within the first 5 years. Given that it is a job with good benefits and 3 months of vacation, that is a surprisingly high number."

 

No, it isn't. Lots of jobs have much higher burnout rates. *shrug*

Edited May 14, 2010 by Volourn

[Oblarg]

"administration. My argument is that a disciplinary action was not appropriate, but they would be remiss to not address the intentional baiting. If a situation had escalated between the 5 students and the ones celebrating Cinco De Mayo and the administrator had ignored the 5 students, I see that as a serious offense."

 

You see wrong. If the situation had 'esclated' into a violent confrontation I would disicipline the ones who started the violence. At best, it's called aggravated assault for a reason. Do not punish potential victims.

 

But, hey, I guess women who wear revealing clothes are evil punks since they are baiting potnetial rapists right so it's their fualt if they get raped just like it be these boys' fault if they get assault for wearing flags of their country in that country. Come on, now.

 

 

" It doesn't matter what you put on, if you put it on with the objective of baiting, then you are baiting. "

 

So, like I said ebfore, if a Montreal fan wears a Cannadiens jersey to the Penguins arena, they are evil and baiting? Hmm... And, they get what they deserve? Does. not. compute. Stop blaming victims 9or potential victims) for the crimes of others.

 

 

"educator. It is not a job for everyone, it requires a certain type of mindset. That is why there is such a huge burnout rate, 50% of new teachers quit within the first 5 years. Given that it is a job with good benefits and 3 months of vacation, that is a surprisingly high number."

 

No, it isn't. Lots of jobs have much higher burnout rates. *shrug*

 

We already established that the assaulters would be at fault, not the assaultees. That doesn't change the fact that the action of provoking the assault was obnoxious.

[Calax]

"administration. My argument is that a disciplinary action was not appropriate, but they would be remiss to not address the intentional baiting. If a situation had escalated between the 5 students and the ones celebrating Cinco De Mayo and the administrator had ignored the 5 students, I see that as a serious offense."

 

You see wrong. If the situation had 'esclated' into a violent confrontation I would disicipline the ones who started the violence. At best, it's called aggravated assault for a reason. Do not punish potential victims.

 

But, hey, I guess women who wear revealing clothes are evil punks since they are baiting potnetial rapists right so it's their fualt if they get raped just like it be these boys' fault if they get assault for wearing flags of their country in that country. Come on, now.

Provocation is an affirmative defense in the legal system to bust charges down. In terms of a school, this would mean that if the kids did get beat up they probably also would have recieved a stern talking to and the students who did the beatings got off lighter. That said, your suggestion basically amounts to giving people carte blanche to taunt each other and if they get hit they can recover, and sue the guy who threw the punch.

 

Either way, the school is not a court room. What works out here doesn't work within the schools grounds.

" It doesn't matter what you put on, if you put it on with the objective of baiting, then you are baiting. "

 

So, like I said ebfore, if a Montreal fan wears a Cannadiens jersey to the Penguins arena, they are evil and baiting? Hmm... And, they get what they deserve? Does. not. compute. Stop blaming victims 9or potential victims) for the crimes of others.

 

 

"educator. It is not a job for everyone, it requires a certain type of mindset. That is why there is such a huge burnout rate, 50% of new teachers quit within the first 5 years. Given that it is a job with good benefits and 3 months of vacation, that is a surprisingly high number."

 

No, it isn't. Lots of jobs have much higher burnout rates. *shrug*

for the top item, to use Dagons example, bacially what they did was go, alone, as black folk to a KKK rally on national "We love Hitler/Kill the non whites" day. And their shirts have the confederate flag with a **** written on it in sharpie.

 

As to burn out rates, sure, there are jobs with higher burn out rates but generally they don't provide the benefits that teaching gives to its practitioners.

 

From what I've seen from teaching, and human behavior in general, is that (in this sort of situation) being proactive rather than reactive will generally lead to much better results for everyone involved.

 

Feels kinda like we're rehashing a previous discussion

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showt...de\+school

 

But with everyone taking different sides.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Calax

[Hurlshort]

I'm not trying to be rude to Volourn, but this has been a very interesting debate and I think both sides are better off ignoring his broken record posts. No need to let the discussion get cluttered.

[Volourn]

"But with everyone taking different sides."

 

Huh? According to my post, I'm taking the same side - of the students who is supposedly 'provoking' others while Hurlshot cotninues to go with whatever the school wants.

 

I wrote the following in that thread: 'The school is in the wrong. School shouldn't just be teaching math but about teaching tolerance, acceptance, and respecting otehrs' choices.

 

The kiddies who fought over this should be the ones punished not the cross dresser. I won't pretend to understand the need to dress like a girl; but it's not a big deal because someone cross dressing does not hurt me. Period. '

 

 

 

"I'm not trying to be rude to Volourn,"

 

Stop lying. Your constant harassment and flaming is silly. Espicially with your spamming (thankfully you've stopped it) of my inbox with your foolishness.

 

 

 

"That said, your suggestion basically amounts to giving people carte blanche to taunt each other and if they get hit they can recover, and sue the guy who threw the punch. "

 

Nah. Not really. But, it does say that you cna't use someone's 'provoking' you as an excuse to get violent.

 

 

"Either way, the school is not a court room. What works out here doesn't work within the schools grounds."

 

The law overrules the school ground.

 

Also, the school board itself said the school was in the wrong.

[213374U]

I'll be honest, that type of philosophy is not going to be all that successful if you ever go into education. That is essentially like trying to repair the dam after it bursts. You will find your job much easier if you establish a strong framework and tackle problems at their root.

I have no plans of getting into teaching. I also believe (and this is also pretty clear from my previous posts, I think) that teachers generally encouraging "niceness" and stepping in before fights break out is the way to go. This, however, has no relation with the original argument that "you have an obligation to be nice".

 

I don't see how you can jump from what I said, to your broken dam analogy. Maybe you're confusing me with somebody else (Volourn? I wouldn't know, I have him on ignore)?

 

 

I found this line to be fairly condescending, <condescending remarks about how tough a teacher's life is>

And your particular professional modus operandi is a universal law how? I'm not arguing it's not the most effective way to go about your work, I'm not arguing it's not a fairly healthy attitude (for you and others), I'm not arguing you should stop it and let kids grow into little barbarians. The code says it pretty clearly: "5) follow each teacher's classroom standards". That's great.

 

None of that means that there's no room for non-nice folk in our happy little world.

 

I may have been condescending, but it's obvious that you cannot or just don't want to understand what I meant by that.

 

 

Feels kinda like we're rehashing a previous discussion

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showt...de\+school

 

But with everyone taking different sides.

I recommend you re-read both threads, if you feel it's the same. Edited May 14, 2010 by 213374U

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'd like to see if Hurlshot would send someone wearing a gay rights shirt home because they're baiting rednecks.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I'd like to see if Hurlshot would send someone wearing a gay rights shirt home because they're baiting rednecks.

 

I would.

[Hurlshort]

I'd like to see if Hurlshot would send someone wearing a gay rights shirt home because they're baiting rednecks.

 

1. I have stated over and over again that the students should not have been sent home or threatened with suspension.

 

2. I am not aware of any national redneck holiday being celebrated in schools.

 

3. If a group of students wore t-shirts that caused a disturbance in school, then I would speak to them about the proper time and place to make political stances.

[Meshugger]

But what if the students wore t-shirts of Cradle of Filth's "Jesus is a c***"? For them, the t-shirt represents the band and the music that they love. If you demand them to change t-shirts or wear them inside out, what are do you expect them to learn from that?

[Hurlshort]

But what if the students wore t-shirts of Cradle of Filth's "Jesus is a c***"? For them, the t-shirt represents the band and the music that they love. If you demand them to change t-shirts or wear them inside out, what are do you expect them to learn from that?

 

Considering it can't even get past the language filter here, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it isn't appropriate apparel for school. Feel free to wear it elsewhere.

 

Students are learning how to act in a professional environment when they attend school. While there are some jobs out there where you can wear whatever you want, many employers have expectations of a dress code. Schools are not quite as strict as a major corporation, but it isn't a free for all.

[Wrath of Dagon]

2. I am not aware of any national redneck holiday being celebrated in schools.

How is that relevant? Is baiting only prohibited on national holidays? Also we've established Cinqo de Mayo is not a national holiday, though it may be a nationalist holiday for some people.

 

3. If a group of students wore t-shirts that caused a disturbance in school, then I would speak to them about the proper time and place to make political stances.

And you'd be sued for violating their first amendment rights. Also there was no disturbance, and even if there were, it's the people who are causing the disturbance that need to be punished.

[Trenitay]

He definitely wouldn't be sued. My school doesn't let students wear a lot of things and guess what. They've never been sued. And you know why? Because a school isn't a place for wearing those things. If the staff doesn't want you wearing something they have the authority to either make you cover it or send you home.

[Oblarg]

But what if the students wore t-shirts of Cradle of Filth's "Jesus is a c***"? For them, the t-shirt represents the band and the music that they love. If you demand them to change t-shirts or wear them inside out, what are do you expect them to learn from that?

 

I'd send them home for having an awful taste in music.

[Oblarg]

2. I am not aware of any national redneck holiday being celebrated in schools.

How is that relevant? Is baiting only prohibited on national holidays? Also we've established Cinqo de Mayo is not a national holiday, though it may be a nationalist holiday for some people.

 

3. If a group of students wore t-shirts that caused a disturbance in school, then I would speak to them about the proper time and place to make political stances.

And you'd be sued for violating their first amendment rights. Also there was no disturbance, and even if there were, it's the people who are causing the disturbance that need to be punished.

 

There are plenty of schools with bans on clothing with political statements. Sorry, bud.

 

And he didn't even say he'd force them to remove the clothing - he simply said he'd inform them that it's not entirely appropriate. How, exactly, is that violating first amendment rights?

 

And, even if we were to forget all that, you have to realize that this wasn't a group of people wearing flags for the purpose of showing their national pride, it was an organized attempt to bait a response. There's a big difference. No, the kids should not have been forced to remove the clothing, and no, it would not technically be their fault if a disruption were to occur, but what they were doing was still obnoxious and irresponsible. There's not getting around that.

[Wrath of Dagon]

That's your interpretation. My interpretation is they were showing their national pride, just as the hispanics were showing their national pride, even if it was to the exclusion of their own country.

 

Edit: I find your statement about the ban hard to believe, as the Supreme Court held that students still have First Amendment rights. Trying to dissuade them from expressing their views would still be a violation of their rights when done by a person of authority.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Oblarg]

That's your interpretation. My interpretation is they were showing their national pride, just as the hispanics were showing their national pride, even if it was to the exclusion of their own country.

 

Edit: I find your statement about the ban hard to believe, as the Supreme Court held that students still have First Amendment rights. Trying to dissuade them from expressing their views would still be a violation of their rights when done by a person of authority.

 

Your interpretation defies common sense. People don't spontaneously show up wearing matching attire on a day on which it will probably cause a disturbance (regardless of whether or not the reaction to it is reasonable) because they just "wanted to show their nationalistic pride" as on any other day.

 

And no, an administrator telling a group of students that wearing clothing for the sake of being provocative is an obnoxious thing to do is not a violation of first amendment rights, and you should reread the first amendment.