Mexifornia

[Amentep]

There's one thing for sure: this would not have happened in Texas.

Apparently there was an ROTC student who got suspended for removing a Mexican flag which was flying above the American flag, which is a violation of protocol. I heard that on the radio but couldn't find the story to link to.

 

Why'd the kid remove it instead of put them in their proper order?

There is no proper order. You cannot fly one national flag above the other, it's an insult. You either have to have 2 flagpoles, or 1 flag.

 

 

D'oh!

 

Had a bit of a brain fart and was thinking the US Flag was on the wrong side on different polls. Dunno why, you clearly say above not beside.

[Thorton_AP]

There is no proper order. You cannot fly one national flag above the other, it's an insult. You either have to have 2 flagpoles, or 1 flag.

 

If people consider that an insult, they're being just as unreasonable IMO.

 

More reasonable than being insulted by people wearing American flags on cinco de mayo.

 

 

No, everyone is being stupid. I'd consider it just the same to be perfectly frank.

 

It's just a flag. I'm reminded of an Eddie Izzard skit.

 

"More reasonable" is comparative for a reason. If I meant to speak in absolutes, I would.

 

I'd contend equally unreasonable. People put too much stock in flags. I doubt I'd blink an eye if I saw my country's flag below another on the same pole. The only way that that is insulting is if you ascribe an intent that someone did it to symbolize that one flag (i.e. what it represents) is superior. The same way that kids wearing an T-shirt is insulting because you ascribe an intent that they are doing it to disrespect your celebration.

 

Assumptions are being made all around.

[Oblarg]

There is no proper order. You cannot fly one national flag above the other, it's an insult. You either have to have 2 flagpoles, or 1 flag.

 

If people consider that an insult, they're being just as unreasonable IMO.

 

More reasonable than being insulted by people wearing American flags on cinco de mayo.

 

 

No, everyone is being stupid. I'd consider it just the same to be perfectly frank.

 

It's just a flag. I'm reminded of an Eddie Izzard skit.

 

"More reasonable" is comparative for a reason. If I meant to speak in absolutes, I would.

 

I'd contend equally unreasonable. People put too much stock in flags. I doubt I'd blink an eye if I saw my country's flag below another on the same pole. The only way that that is insulting is if you ascribe an intent that someone did it to symbolize that one flag (i.e. what it represents) is superior. The same way that kids wearing an T-shirt is insulting because you ascribe an intent that they are doing it to disrespect your celebration.

 

Assumptions are being made all around.

 

Except one being placed below the other is arguably legitimate symbolism, whereas in the other case people are being offended by the flag of the country in which they are living. Neither is particularly reasonable, but arguing that they're equally unreasonable is just stupid.

[Volourn]

"Do you really believe these 5 students just innocently showed up with US flag bandanna's and matching T-shirts? They just happened to all coordinate their wardrobes on this day?"

 

My gosh. 5 Amerikans wearing Amerikan flags in Amerika. What evil ghouls theya re!

 

 

 

"You have a series of bad decisions being made here."

 

Wearing your country's flag in your own country is never a bad decision.

 

" It started when these 5 boys decided to synchronize their clothing on a day of a Mexican Heritage Celebration. All parties should be held accountable. "

 

Those 5 boys did nothing wrong. The people who claim they are, are the bigots/self hating punks.

[Oblarg]

"Do you really believe these 5 students just innocently showed up with US flag bandanna's and matching T-shirts? They just happened to all coordinate their wardrobes on this day?"

 

My gosh. 5 Amerikans wearing Amerikan flags in Amerika. What evil ghouls theya re!

 

 

 

"You have a series of bad decisions being made here."

 

Wearing your country's flag in your own country is never a bad decision.

 

" It started when these 5 boys decided to synchronize their clothing on a day of a Mexican Heritage Celebration. All parties should be held accountable. "

 

Those 5 boys did nothing wrong. The people who claim they are, are the bigots/self hating punks.

 

To be honest, their intentions were probably to get some sort of response, or at least to make a point. It's kind of hard to deny that. The simple fact is that it really doesn't matter; their intentions are completely irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is the sad fact that an American citizen would, at any time, be offended by an American flag.

[Enoch]

Tangentially related and entertaining: Grading the flags of the world.

[Volourn]

Even if their purpose was to make a point or get a response, good on them. Sometiems you have to prod people so they can show their trukly ugly colours.

 

This works for the Muhammed cartoonist. Obviously, the drawings for done to make a point/get a response. And, the point is proven there as it is here.

 

In Amerika, there's a certain section of people who are so hateful of their supposed country that they loathe anyone showing its colours.

 

In Muslm society whuile they claim to be a religuion a peace, the natural reaction to a certain segment of that supposed peaceful religion is violence.

 

That's why I feel the 5 boys - including two of which are Mexican-Amerikans - did absolutely nothing wrong mno matter their motives. Even if they were all whites whsoe message was 'I HATE MEXICAO', they still would have done nothing wrong. You can never be wrong to wear your country's flag in your own country. Period.

 

But, hey, a Mexican wearing a Mexican flag in Mexico on Amerika's Independence Day in a neighbourhood known to house many Amerikans is a scumbag... right? L0LZ

[Walsingham]

Even if their purpose was to make a point or get a response, good on them. Sometiems you have to prod people so they can show their trukly ugly colours.

 

Suddenly trolling becomes a civic duty?

[Thorton_AP]

Except one being placed below the other is arguably legitimate symbolism, whereas in the other case people are being offended by the flag of the country in which they are living. Neither is particularly reasonable, but arguing that they're equally unreasonable is just stupid.

 

Why is it arguable? Because you feel it is legitimate symbolism?

 

Like I said, if I were to even notice that two flags were on the same pole, it'd probably be simply because two flags on the same pole is a rare occurrence. I wouldn't care if was my country's flag that was below, nor would I think it was disrespectful to the other country's if there's was below.

 

It sounds like you just have double standards that adhere to your perception of the world (which isn't a criticism, we all do). To say that they aren't equally unreasonable is just stupid!

Edited May 12, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Volourn]

I guess some noteable like that black lady (can't remember her name) who refused to sit at the back of the bus or MLK were just trolls?

 

Or the women who demanded the right to vote?

 

Some of the most positive changes in the world are done by so called 'trolls' provoking others for a reaction or to make a point.

 

Afterall, the oen refused to sit on the back of the bus could have pushed some racist piece of crap into killing her. And, we all know what happened to MLK when he stood up and 'provoked' others.

 

This situation isn't as dramatic or world effecting as those two but your response is silly and has been disproven many many times.

 

Unless you want to call MLK a troll. Do you?

[Thorton_AP]

Did the kids do it as an example of social commentary?

[Oblarg]

I guess some noteable like that black lady (can't remember her name) who refused to sit at the back of the bus or MLK were just trolls?

 

Or the women who demanded the right to vote?

 

Some of the most positive changes in the world are done by so called 'trolls' provoking others for a reaction or to make a point.

 

Afterall, the oen refused to sit on the back of the bus could have pushed some racist piece of crap into killing her. And, we all know what happened to MLK when he stood up and 'provoked' others.

 

This situation isn't as dramatic or world effecting as those two but your response is silly and has been disproven many many times.

 

Unless you want to call MLK a troll. Do you?

 

Comparing the kids to Rosa Parks is ridiculous. They weren't trying to bring about a social revolution, they were most likely being typical teenagers. It was a rather obnoxious thing to do - even if people shouldn't have been offended, the response was predictable and baiting a response in that manner when there is very little to gain is not a commendable thing. I seriously doubt they had intended to be thrown out of school that day as a sacrifice to show that people are unreasonable.

 

The world is not black and white, and there is a very large difference between civil disobedience and attempting to bait angry responses from unreasonable people.

[Hurlshort]

Did the kids do it as an example of social commentary?

 

If this was their intent, then there is still the problem with the forum they have chosen for their political stand. Schools have to be very cautious when it comes to political messages. That's why I keep saying the administrator handled this terribly. Instead of opening a dialogue with the students about their intent and how it might be perceived by others, he tried to shame them.

 

 

There are really three sides to this argument:

 

- The 5 students side

 

- The administrators side

 

- The both sides are wrong side

[Hurlshort]

The world is not black and white, and there is a very large difference between civil disobedience and attempting to bait angry responses from unreasonable people.

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Volologic, Oblarg. :D

[Oblarg]

Did the kids do it as an example of social commentary?

 

If this was their intent, then there is still the problem with the forum they have chosen for their political stand. Schools have to be very cautious when it comes to political messages. That's why I keep saying the administrator handled this terribly. Instead of opening a dialogue with the students about their intent and how it might be perceived by others, he tried to shame them.

 

 

There are really three sides to this argument:

 

- The 5 students side

 

- The administrators side

 

- The both sides are wrong side

 

Or the "both sides are wrong but some are more wrong than others" side.

 

In any reasonable school policy, there should have been no punishment for the kids wearing the flags. Those who are offended should suck it up and move on, because it's not a flagrantly offensive thing that they did, whether or not it was obnoxious. If I wear a "legalize gay marriage" shirt to school (which I probably wouldn't, as advertising political views on your clothing is retarded), should I be forced to remove it because conservatives find it offensive? The only reason for forcing them to remove the clothing would be if there was a school-wide policy banning flags on clothing (and not just on Cinco de Mayo), or if there was genuine danger of violence over the shirts (which itself would be ridiculous and reveal some shocking problems with the school).

[Volourn]

Ooo... a personal attack. YAY!

 

Anyways, the people seeing things in black and white is the side who claim these kids are just evil punks who deserve to be terminated. All because they wear Amerikan flag shirts in Amerika. WEARING AMERIKAN FLAGS IN AMERIKA IS NOW CONSIDERED EVIL. LMAO

[Oblarg]

Ooo... a personal attack. YAY!

 

Anyways, the people seeing things in black and white is the side who claim these kids are just evil punks who deserve to be terminated. All because they wear Amerikan flag shirts in Amerika. WEARING AMERIKAN FLAGS IN AMERIKA IS NOW CONSIDERED EVIL. LMAO

 

I'm not defending their reactions (nor have I seen anyone in the thread say something that ridiculous), but these kids were not partaking in civil disobedience, they were trolling. It's an obnoxious thing to do, regardless of how unreasonable the people they are trolling are.

 

If there were a known school policy against wearing American flags which they were flaunting, I might think differently, but that's simply not the case.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Oblarg

[Hurlshort]

There is a known school policy against wearing bandannas.

 

There are also many schools with uniforms or limited color choices. This debacle will likely lead to more schools moving in that direction.

 

For example, both red and blue are not allowed on my wife's High School campus. They have a heavy gang issue, but the letter of the law means students can't wear US flag regalia.

[Oblarg]

There is a known school policy against wearing bandannas.

 

There are also many schools with uniforms or limited color choices. This debacle will likely lead to more schools moving in that direction.

 

For example, both red and blue are not allowed on my wife's High School campus. They have a heavy gang issue, but the letter of the law means students can't wear US flag regalia.

 

Then they could have asked for them to remove the bandannas without being unreasonable.

 

However, as far as we know, there was no school-wide policy against wearing flags. They should not have been forced to remove their American flag shirts.

 

And if there were a policy against flags, that would be ridiculous and would warrant discussion by itself.

[Hurlshort]

There is a known school policy against wearing bandannas.

 

There are also many schools with uniforms or limited color choices. This debacle will likely lead to more schools moving in that direction.

 

For example, both red and blue are not allowed on my wife's High School campus. They have a heavy gang issue, but the letter of the law means students can't wear US flag regalia.

 

Then they could have asked for them to remove the bandannas without being unreasonable.

 

However, as far as we know, there was no school-wide policy against wearing flags. They should not have been forced to remove their American flag shirts.

 

And if there were a policy against flags, that would be ridiculous and would warrant discussion by itself.

 

Yep, that's why I said the administrator messed up.

[Oblarg]

There is a known school policy against wearing bandannas.

 

There are also many schools with uniforms or limited color choices. This debacle will likely lead to more schools moving in that direction.

 

For example, both red and blue are not allowed on my wife's High School campus. They have a heavy gang issue, but the letter of the law means students can't wear US flag regalia.

 

Then they could have asked for them to remove the bandannas without being unreasonable.

 

However, as far as we know, there was no school-wide policy against wearing flags. They should not have been forced to remove their American flag shirts.

 

And if there were a policy against flags, that would be ridiculous and would warrant discussion by itself.

 

Yep, that's why I said the administrator messed up.

 

Then we are in agreement.

[Volourn]

"There is a known school policy against wearing bandannas."

 

Bandannas ar enot the issue. They were asked to remove their bandannas and they did so. This is about the flag on the shirts.

 

 

"There are also many schools with uniforms or limited color choices."

 

Not this school. At leats one of these MEXICAN-Amerikans wore his Amerikan flag shirt OFTEN.

 

 

" This debacle will likely lead to more schools moving in that direction.

"

 

Schools with hardcore dress codes are Nazi wannabes. Yes, I went there.

 

 

"For example, both red and blue are not allowed on my wife's High School campus."

 

We aren't talking about your wife's campus, are we? Totally irrelevant.

 

 

" They have a heavy gang issue, but the letter of the law means students can't wear US flag regalia. "

 

Irrevant in this situation.

 

And, oh, btw, a school having a dress code is not the law. It can be overruled by the law, and I bet if someone at her campus would pushf rot he ability to ware a shirt with the Amerikan flag on it they would no doubt win it school 'law' or not.

 

Schools are NOT above the law. That's why they their by laws overturned and once and awhile when they make a garbage by-law (not saying your wife's campus has one but it's not a law).

 

 

That said, that situation is not this situation.

 

Only hateful anti Amerikans would bash Amerikans wearing an Amerikan flag in Amerika.

 

friggin' ridiculous.

[Oblarg]

"There is a known school policy against wearing bandannas."

 

Bandannas ar enot the issue. They were asked to remove their bandannas and they did so. This is about the flag on the shirts.

 

 

"There are also many schools with uniforms or limited color choices."

 

Not this school. At leats one of these MEXICAN-Amerikans wore his Amerikan flag shirt OFTEN.

 

 

" This debacle will likely lead to more schools moving in that direction.

"

 

Schools with hardcore dress codes are Nazi wannabes. Yes, I went there.

 

 

"For example, both red and blue are not allowed on my wife's High School campus."

 

We aren't talking about your wife's campus, are we? Totally irrelevant.

 

 

" They have a heavy gang issue, but the letter of the law means students can't wear US flag regalia. "

 

Irrevant in this situation.

 

And, oh, btw, a school having a dress code is not the law. It can be overruled by the law, and I bet if someone at her campus would pushf rot he ability to ware a shirt with the Amerikan flag on it they would no doubt win it school 'law' or not.

 

Schools are NOT above the law. That's why they their by laws overturned and once and awhile when they make a garbage by-law (not saying your wife's campus has one but it's not a law).

 

 

That said, that situation is not this situation.

 

Only hateful anti Amerikans would bash Amerikans wearing an Amerikan flag in Amerika.

 

friggin' ridiculous.

 

There's no "bashing" going on here. You're ranting against absolutely nothing.

[Volourn]

"There's no "bashing" going on here. You're ranting against absolutely nothing."

 

Did you read the thread? There is most bashing going on. Unless calling them 'low lifes', 'punks', and other nasty names are supposed to be terms of endearment? Come on, now.

 

People in this thread *are* bashing (Mexican) Amerikans for daring to wear Amerikan flas in Amerika. L0LZ

[Oblarg]

"There's no "bashing" going on here. You're ranting against absolutely nothing."

 

Did you read the thread? There is most bashing going on. Unless calling them 'low lifes', 'punks', and other nasty names are supposed to be terms of endearment? Come on, now.

 

People in this thread *are* bashing (Mexican) Amerikans for daring to wear Amerikan flas in Amerika. L0LZ

 

Talk about seeing things in black at white...

 

Trolling is obnoxious, even if the thing you're using to troll shouldn't be offensive; what they were doing was not some valiant stand against the degradation of our culture, nor was it civil disobedience. It was trolling. If you can't see that, I suppose you're hopeless. They're not people we should endear. There's nothing wrong with wearing an American flag in America, but there is something obnoxious about a group of kids planning to wear them on a day on which they know it will offend people, whether or not being offended is a reasonable response.

 

That said, punishing them or forcing them to remove the clothes was a stupid thing to do, because the fault of being offended lies solely with the people who are offended by something that shouldn't be offensive. That doesn't make it any less obnoxious, however.