Dragon Age Discussion

[Gorth]

Start of old thread

End of old thread

 

Just to kick off the new thread where the old left off...

 

Possible hint of Dragon Age sequal or expansion coming out 02.01.2011 - link

 

I can see an expansion by then, but a sequel would be really really quick turnover if it comes out about a year after Awakening.

 

Interesting news, but it's not as though games have never been delayed before

[Wrath of Dagon]

Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition. By that criterion DAO doesn't qualify.

[Gromnir]

Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition. By that criterion DAO doesn't qualify.

 

am always disappointed by folks who equate nihilism with dark; is a disturbingly myopic pov.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Niten_Ryu]

Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition. By that criterion DAO doesn't qualify.

 

am always disappointed by folks who equate nihilism with dark; is a disturbingly myopic pov.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Are you saying that nihilism is not dark?

[Gromnir]

Usually I consider something dark if it has a cynical or nihilistic view of the human condition. By that criterion DAO doesn't qualify.

 

am always disappointed by folks who equate nihilism with dark; is a disturbingly myopic pov.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Are you saying that nihilism is not dark?

 

there is nothing inherent dark about nihilism. death metal freaks and coffee shop goths has given nihilism a bad name... and of course the fact that nihilists and organized religions rare see eye-to-eye may exacerbate the issue a bit.

 

lack o' objective meaning or morality does NOT = dark. Gromnir could very easy create a land o' fluffy bunnies frolicking in a nihilistic utopia w/o even a hint o' darkness in it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[jaguars4ever]

Nihilism isn't dark. Raping, Pillaging, Plundering, Murdering, Betraying, Voting Republican is dark. Nihilism is emo. And the only thing dark about that is the color of their mascara.

[Maria Caliban]

"If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself."

 

Chairman Sheng-ji Yang

"Looking God in the Eye"

 

Wish they'd made a second Alpha Centurai.

 

Some people find nihilism bleak, some find it liberating, and other find it rather matter-of-fact. I think many people read fiction, especially fantasy fiction, to see characters and events that are deeply meaningful within the frame of the story. If they're made aware that those characters and events are not meaningful, they will perceive the work as being darker. Even if you populate it with fluffy bunnies.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Maria Caliban

[RPGmasterBoo]

"If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself."

 

Chairman Sheng-ji Yang

"Looking God in the Eye"

 

Wish they'd made a second Alpha Centurai.

 

Some people find nihilism bleak, some find it liberating, and other find it rather matter-of-fact. I think many people read fiction, especially fantasy fiction, to see characters and events that are deeply meaningful within the frame of the story. If they're made aware that those characters and events are not meaningful, they will perceive the work as being darker. Even if you populate it with fluffy bunnies.

 

Hey I put that quote up a week or two ago!

 

AC rules.

Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.

 

* Chairman Sheng-ji Yang

 

 

No longer mere earthbeings and planetbeings are we, but bright children of the stars! And together we shall dance in and out of ten billion years, celebrating the gift of consciousness until the stars themselves grow cold and weary, and our thoughts turn again to the beginning.

 

* Lady Deirdre Skye, "Conversations With Planet", Epilogue

[Sannom]

Nihilism isn't dark. Raping, Pillaging, Plundering, Murdering, Betraying, Voting Republican is dark. Nihilism is emo. And the only thing dark about that is the color of their mascara.

 

Is there an english version of Germinal, by Emile Zola? Nihilism in that one is quite scary. And dangerous. Merely a lone terrorist with no attach taking any chance he has to bring disarray into society. Including having an entire coal mine collapse, with a full shaft of miners in it. Beside the horror, I always thought that guy was quite badass to pull this one off...

[RPGmasterBoo]

death metal freaks and coffee shop goths has given nihilism a bad name.[/b].. and of course the fact that nihilists and organized religions rare see eye-to-eye may exacerbate the issue a bit.

 

They don't know squat about nihilism, all they did was exchange one set of values for another. In their case nihilism is just a fashion displayed with a few wacky hairstyles and an obsession with black clothes. As if that makes anyone really different in any relevant way.

 

It irks me because I love listening to all sorts of metal but can't stand all the "ooo we're so different and special" attitude that comes with the subculture. A few days ago I was in this gothic club (because I like the music) and everyone was dressed uniformly in black like the world ran out of colors or something.

[Niten_Ryu]

there is nothing inherent dark about nihilism.

 

In the Witcher (I find that setting dark while others argue that there's nothing dark in it) your dwarf companion say something like this - "moral relativism has caused more misery then all the monsters and dragons combined". I liked that quote and if we accept that nihilism is the ultimate argument against any kind of morality ie. "nothing matters, not even my own actions", I can't see that as anything but a extremely dark view.

[Gromnir]

there is nothing inherent dark about nihilism.

 

In the Witcher (I find that setting dark while others argue that there's nothing dark in it) your dwarf companion say something like this - "moral relativism has caused more misery then all the monsters and dragons combined". I liked that quote and if we accept that nihilism is the ultimate argument against any kind of morality ie. "nothing matters, not even my own actions", I can't see that as anything but a extremely dark view.

 

quoting witcher? really? HA!

 

"If they're made aware that those characters and events are not meaningful, they will perceive the work as being darker."

 

this too is NOT nihilism. lack o' objective meaning or morality hardly robs characters and story of meaning. yet another coffee shop goth's pov o' nihilism.

 

 

maria and nit should get together and write the definitive text on nihilism based on their experience with pc games.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps so as to be more clear than is typical for us, we do not deny that the typical portrayal and perception o' nihilism is dark. "Life has no meaning? Dear God, whatever shall I do?" *snort* but again, that ain't nihilism. what you find to be dark is the typical perception and portrayal of nihilism as some kinda philosophical dead-end that robs folks o' hope and restraint. foolishness. don't confuse nihilism with nihilistic characters and stories you has witnessed. is not the nihilism that is dark, but only the artist/author's presentation.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Gromnir

[Wrath of Dagon]

The True Nihilists are still out there, on the outer rim.

[HoonDing]

I would've thought "Dark" and "Heroic" were mutually exclusive. No matter how big a jerk one chooses to be during the game, in the end one slays the Big Bad Dragon anyway.

 

In the Witcher, in the end things either stayed the same or worsened depending on the faction one had chosen... but Geralt fulfilled his own personal quest, which was the only thing that really mattered for him.

Edited March 11, 2010 by virumor

[RPGmasterBoo]

Nihilism is just another philosophical viewpoint without any inherent slant towards "dark" or any other moral (?) classification.

 

Then again it did clash with the (at the time) dominant christian morality so it was basically branded as "dark" or at least "unacceptable". The questions it poses are still too uncomfortable most people, christian or not because it usually questions some fundamental values taken for granted.

 

Wiki article (not all that great but it'll have to do).

 

What it its:

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life[1] is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived.

 

The usual usage:

The term nihilism is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence that one may develop upon realizing there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws.

 

While Nietzche is usually the poster boy of nihilism, I think Max Stirner's philosophy is much stronger and more consistent.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Back on topic:

 

Wiki again

 

Dark fantasy is a subgenre that combines elements of fantasy, including marvelous abilities, with those of horror.[1] Another definition of the genre is "a type of horror story in which humanity is threatened by forces beyond human understanding."[2] The term was coined by Charles L. Grant in the 1970s. [3]

Dark fantasy has yet to be solidly connected to its own particular subgenre of fantasy. Stories often described by some as dark fantasy may be placed by others in either the horror or fantasy genres, based on which genre the story tends more toward. As a natural consequence, the term itself may refer collectively to tales that would more properly belong in very different genres.

 

Dark fantasy in this context refers to stories that focus on darker themes, sometimes akin to those of horror, but which take place in a setting more like sword and sorcery or high fantasy. In this sense, dark fantasy is usually considered a sub-genre of fantasy.

There is a strong overlap between this style of fantasy and sword and sorcery, due to the often bleak, pessimistic tones, and moral ambiguity (especially when compared to the more dualistic themes of high fantasy). Michael Moor****'s Elric stories and Karl Edward Wagner's Kane sequence are two examples of this overlap, the latter having actually coined the term "dark fantasy"[5].

Dark fantasy is also used to refer to "grittier" fantasy, conducted in settings which represent the brutality of the medieval period of most fantasy, generally with a dash of supernatural horror such as in Charles R. Saunders' early Imaro trilogy which was heavily influenced by Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft.

 

If this is what Dragon Age was supposed to be I'd say its still far closer to regular high fantasy. Even though its supposed to be bleak and pessimistic given the storyline it never really feels that way. It doesn't even attempt in earnest to set this kind of atmosphere.

The only recent game that actually fits this description is the Witcher. Visually bleak, at times morally ambigous and lacking the obvious heroic slant of DA. (though you do save the world in the end, kinda)

[Monte Carlo]

We really need to move the conversation on to fighting. In tunnels. I don't understand all this other stuff.

[Volourn]

L0L

 

The dark talk is just plain silly as it's just a flashy word that in the end means nothing important.

 

DA:A seems to coming together nicely so far as talents, classes, and what not. Though the whole lacvk of DLC and the huge turnover of joinable npcs is still lame. It's also sucky that the new talents/skills/classes are not useable in the original game. BOO!

[Oner]

Tunnels are dark.

There. Bit o'Wisdom of the decade.

Everyone is happy.

[Niten_Ryu]

is not the nihilism that is dark, but only the artist/author's presentation.

 

I use game quotes rather then real life quotes (those would just lead to endless counter quotes). In games (and in other creative media) you can deal with absolutes. You design world and setting to be something and thus by default they are what you designed 'em to be. In real world it'll be about what we BELIVE (or what we KNOW if we choose strong stance for or against something).

 

Is Dragon Age nihilistic setting? Mr Gaider don't tell us but some lore might suggest that it is. Denizens of the Thedas certainly don't think it is as they have rules and hierarchies, faiths, working societies, moral codes and laws. But what if they knew it's nihilistic? You don't think it'd turn setting darker by default?

[Gromnir]

is not the nihilism that is dark, but only the artist/author's presentation.

 

I use game quotes rather then real life quotes (those would just lead to endless counter quotes). In games (and in other creative media) you can deal with absolutes. You design world and setting to be something and thus by default they are what you designed 'em to be. In real world it'll be about what we BELIVE (or what we KNOW if we choose strong stance for or against something).

 

 

 

no doubt you thinks the quote above means something. it don't. and why you sudden decide to throw ubiquitous nihilism into Thedas as some sorta proof is baffling to say the least.

 

is hardly difficult to imagine a setting where people/beings do not believe in objective morality or Reasons for Existence w/o it being dark. postmodern fiction has become increasingly nihilistic, and while much such fiction is dark, not all is. God is Dead. fine. is impossible to imagine a period of mourning after which folks go on with their lives? nihilism is not inherent dark.

 

btw, on the issue of the specific topic o' bio's making of da darkness, we think it is manifest unfair to use textbook or wiki definitions o' literary darkness. there is a great deal o' difference o' opinion regarding what makes for darkness in lit and games. regarding dark & mature, the developers was more than a little vague pre-release. even so, we were given to understand that da were gonna have more moral ambiguity and tough choices with no clear-cut good v. evil. bsg and george r.r. martin were big inspirations and we shoulds be expecting to see characters with complex motivations rather than the oversimplified nonsense that inevitably results from d&d alignment and star wars light v. dark. etc.

 

am not holding bio to any definition o' dark and mature other than their own. given how little they said it shoulda' been easy to successful achieve dark and mature, no?

 

"dark, but not too dark."

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 11, 2010 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

It's also sucky that the new talents/skills/classes are not useable in the original game. BOO!

 

This is a pet hate of mine. Have Bio explained, perchance, why not?

[Gromnir]

It's also sucky that the new talents/skills/classes are not useable in the original game. BOO!

 

This is a pet hate of mine. Have Bio explained, perchance, why not?

 

an odd choice.

 

is pure conjecture, however, considering how fubar balance were in da:o, we doubt biowarians wanna try and make adjustments to compensate for the new host o' powhaz and spells.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

Let's talk about balance, it's easier for me to understand than philosophy.

 

The potion of re-spec shows how hopelessly unbalanced DA is --- because it is a game crafted around the skills and abilities of the NPCs (i.e. the sucky spell selections of the mages, Sten's suboptimal stats for his fighter specialisation). Re-spec them and BOOM! the game becomes a virtual cakewalk.

 

So I suppose not adding powers that make your character even more powerful aren't allowed in the vanilla game. Even now I don't really understand the DA mechanics, I'm playing with a DW Warrior with two daggers. Is he better off with one bigger weapon? I dunno. I'm just guessing.

 

Cheers

MC

[Niten_Ryu]

is hardly difficult to imagine a setting where people/beings do not believe in objective morality or Reasons for Existence w/o it being dark. postmodern fiction has become increasingly nihilistic, and while much such fiction is dark, not all is. God is Dead. fine. is impossible to imagine a period of mourning after which folks go on with their lives? nihilism is not inherent dark.

 

Ok, now I sorta see where we differ. Your cause and effect is complitely opposite of mine. If you'd design nihilistic setting, denizens in it would *shrug* few times and get on with their insignificant lives and still live just about the same as they used to. In my nihilistic setting it would end up in flames or at least in complite collapse of the society.

 

Might be "fun" PnP project. Something like world full of characters like Kevin Nealon's excellent Doug Wilson (from the Weeds).