Infinity Ward founders canned by Activision

[Volourn]

"it's nowhere near the amount that they claim they're owed"

 

Proof, please.

 

 

"And fire them they did, which lead to your initial outrage (as well as everyone elses)."

 

Don't tell me what my initial 'outrage' was. Hell, my first post in this thread was directed at people trolling me on page. I didn't even care all that much about IW guys being fired as it wans't a company I pay attention to. I only noticed stuff because of people trolling me.

 

My first post on the actual topic was this: meh. "Seems like Activision weren't honouring their contract anyways. Both sides no doubt have screwed up, and in the end, likely nobody will win everything they want."

 

Does this sound like someone who was initially butthurt over the 'poor' IW guys being fired? No. In fact, I blamed both for not honouring the contract. No, it sounds like it was somebody who blamed both and had no caring that they got fired.

 

Still, no matter what, they deserve to get paid for the work they did because ACT made 9and still is making) a lot of money based on IW's (and their founders) work.

 

Pay them. Period.

 

Seriosuly, don't claim I believed x or y or some such when I did no such thing.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Volourn

[Calax]

"it's nowhere near the amount that they claim they're owed"

 

Proof, please.

 

 

"And fire them they did, which lead to your initial outrage (as well as everyone elses)."

 

Don't tell me what my initial 'outrage' was. Hell, my first post in this thread was directed at people trolling me on page. I didn't even care all that much about IW guys being fired as it wans't a company I pay attention to. I only noticed stuff because of people trolling me.

 

My first post on the actual topic was this: meh. "Seems like Activision weren't honouring their contract anyways. Both sides no doubt have screwed up, and in the end, likely nobody will win everything they want."

 

Does this sound like someone who was initially butthurt over the 'poor' IW guys being fired? No. In fact, I blamed both for not honouring the contract. No, it sounds like it was somebody who blamed both and had no caring that they got fired.

 

Still, no matter what, they deserve to get paid for the work they did because ACT made 9and still is making) a lot of money based on IW's (and their founders) work.

 

Pay them. Period.

 

Seriosuly, don't claim I believed x or y or some such when I did no such thing.

Simple, they're no longer the entity of "Infinity Ward" and thus not entitled to a cut of the overall profits after they were canned. I don't see a copyright or contract anywhere stating that they, as people, received monetary compensation for every unit sold. INFINITY WARD might, but that's the companies coffers, not the individual.

[Volourn]

"Simple, they're no longer the entity of "Infinity Ward" and thus not entitled to a cut of the overall profits after they were canned. I don't see a copyright or contract anywhere stating that they, as people, received monetary compensation for every unit sold. INFINITY WARD might, but that's the companies coffers, not the individual."

 

Absolutely nonsensical garbage posted by a biased ACTI fanboy who has no understanding how contract law works. L0L

 

Even ACTI admits to oweing them money but they are purposefully withholding that money as 'punishment' which they CANNOT do legally. It's theft. But, hey, youa dmitted to being a troll attemopting to play devil's advocate (and doing a poor job of it as well) so it's no wonder you keep making stuff up.

 

On top of that you also made the bogus claim that I was some anti 'big bad company' punk which was wholly disproven and embarassed you yet again.

 

Let's repeat this: ACTI owes them money but has unilaterlaly decided that they shouldn't have to pay them money owed. That's theft. Plain and simple.

 

ACTI has amde and continues to make a lot of money off their work and owes them for it. They do not have the legal right to refuse to pay them for work done no matter what else the two did.

[Calax]

"Simple, they're no longer the entity of "Infinity Ward" and thus not entitled to a cut of the overall profits after they were canned. I don't see a copyright or contract anywhere stating that they, as people, received monetary compensation for every unit sold. INFINITY WARD might, but that's the companies coffers, not the individual."

 

Absolutely nonsensical garbage posted by a biased ACTI fanboy who has no understanding how contract law works. L0L

 

Even ACTI admits to oweing them money but they are purposefully withholding that money as 'punishment' which they CANNOT do legally. It's theft. But, hey, youa dmitted to being a troll attemopting to play devil's advocate (and doing a poor job of it as well) so it's no wonder you keep making stuff up.

 

On top of that you also made the bogus claim that I was some anti 'big bad company' punk which was wholly disproven and embarassed you yet again.

 

Let's repeat this: ACTI owes them money but has unilaterlaly decided that they shouldn't have to pay them money owed. That's theft. Plain and simple.

 

ACTI has amde and continues to make a lot of money off their work and owes them for it. They do not have the legal right to refuse to pay them for work done no matter what else the two did.

West and Zamps suit is primarily over their termination. When the suit first came out everyone immediately attacked acti and said that Acti OBVIOUSLY was in the wrong, because they were the ones who were such draconian enforcers. ow it's been proven that Acti had a VERY good reason for booting West and Zamp and immediately that's been forgotten in favor of arguing that being payed for not doing your job is what's supposed to happen.

 

I'd hardly say embarrassed given you're the one who seems unable to spell, and I pointed out that Acti is with holding money because they feel that the overly large bonuses that West and zamp took for COD1-4 etc more than made up for what is currently owed. West and Zamp have asked for 36 million bucks in their complaint saying that it's for their entire team. That number is already out the window as Activision has stated that they were going to pay out bonuses to the members of the team that stayed with IW at least until all this is over with (which you seem to conveniently forget).

 

Also you seem to be unable to distinguish between company, and personnel. A company that owns rights to a product, gets a cut of the products sales. Neither west nor Zamp (to my knoweldge) have rights to CoD or MW in general other than the "work on" possibility of their MoU as both rights are held by either IW or Acti. West and Zamp DO NOT represent IW at all and thus would have no ability to stick their hands in the cash register of IW for the constant influx of sales dollars you seem to be thinking are appearing.

 

Hint, next time you post while frustrated, try using a word processor with spell check, it tends to work better.

[Nepenthe]

As for the stealing money, that was all me. Acti said that they were taking titanic amounts of the bonus money doled out (something like 33% of that handed out for the entire franchise) and that was it. I was the one who proposed that they might have been siphoning off bonus money then blaming it on the publishers simply to make their employees angry.

 

So you're basically just making stuff up as you go? Greeeeat.

 

 

In these kinds of arguments, the truth can generally be found somewhere between the two extremes claimed by the parties - so it's unlikely that either party is positing the absolute truth, and even unlikelier if something like you proposed had been taking place, it wouldn't have been mentioned by Acti's reputedly highly aggressive and efficient legal team.

[alanschu]

seriously, it's not Acti's fault that their logo wasn't in the game, they didn't actually code the bloody thing

 

I would be exceptionally surprised that, if Activision actually cared about the omission of the logo, that they couldn't have had it added. Sure Infinity Ward didn't add it and that makes them ****, but I'd still blame primarily Activision for its omission.

[Calax]

As for the stealing money, that was all me. Acti said that they were taking titanic amounts of the bonus money doled out (something like 33% of that handed out for the entire franchise) and that was it. I was the one who proposed that they might have been siphoning off bonus money then blaming it on the publishers simply to make their employees angry.

 

So you're basically just making stuff up as you go? Greeeeat.

 

 

In these kinds of arguments, the truth can generally be found somewhere between the two extremes claimed by the parties - so it's unlikely that either party is positing the absolute truth, and even unlikelier if something like you proposed had been taking place, it wouldn't have been mentioned by Acti's reputedly highly aggressive and efficient legal team.

I'm not necessarily making stuff up, well, in a way I am, as is everyone in this thread, because we know about next to nothing concerning what's actually going on. I wasn't proposing this as gods truth or anything, just said it might be possible.

 

seriously, it's not Acti's fault that their logo wasn't in the game, they didn't actually code the bloody thing

 

I would be exceptionally surprised that, if Activision actually cared about the omission of the logo, that they couldn't have had it added. Sure Infinity Ward didn't add it and that makes them ****, but I'd still blame primarily Activision for its omission.

True, they probably could have had it added, and it probably wouldn't have been an issue except that very quickly after the games release west and zamp started disappearing from the work place to go visit another, competing company, and then the publisher hears rumors about what the guys have been saying...

 

Hell, I doubt that the Publishers would have noticed unless things went down hill.

 

Mildly related note, anyone remember why IW bolted from 2015 after MoH:AA?

Edited April 15, 2010 by Calax

[LostStraw]

It seems as if Infinity Ward is self destructing...

 

http://kotaku.com/5517346/todays-update-on...veloper-bailout

Longtime Infinity Ward employees Mark Grigsby and Paul Messerly have both left the studio, the team's lead animator and lead character animator, respectively.

...

The departure of Grigsby and Messerly leaves Infinity Ward at least 13 employees weaker since March 1. That number includes high level staffers like fired studio founders Jason West and Vince Zampella, plus a quickly growing list of team leads and veteran developers.

[Nepenthe]

I'm not necessarily making stuff up, well, in a way I am, as is everyone in this thread, because we know about next to nothing concerning what's actually going on. I wasn't proposing this as gods truth or anything, just said it might be possible.

 

I admit I haven't been following the thread that closely, or perused the Activision documents (just the West and Zampella ones, since I had more time when they came out), but honestly, I haven't seen anything that just seems as pulled from the air as your's did

 

As far as I know, the Activision accusations of "misconduct" are a lot more nebulous than the concrete list of grievings W&Z filed. Always an interesting dichotomy.

 

And I'm sure rats are leaving the sinking ship just because they feel that they were mistreated by their former studio heads, as opposed to by the owner/publisher...

[Oner]

Alanschuuuuu \o/

[Volourn]

Another two employees leave. Yup, IW employees are leaving because the former fired heads of the division stole money from them as opposed to the wionderful bosses atv ACTI.

 

Face it, ACTI has stolen money from ACTI including the big wigs there, and the employees at IW have had enough and theyr'e probably sneaking out as soon as they can depending on their individual contracts. Yet, ACTI is supposedly acting on their behalf? Come on.

 

And, again, you lump me in with everyone who 'automatically' attacked ACTI which I did not do. Do you nto read.

 

Bottom line is ACTI stole money that does not belong to them and even admit it (though they use the term 'withholding'). It's not their privledge to do so. btw, You say the IW foudners don't represent IW but that's bullocks and everyone knows as no doubt any negotiations between ACTI and IW was done with them as representatives of their entire division. L0L

 

Bottom line is when someone does work for you and you make tons of money off them, you better pay them. Or its theft. Period.

[Calax]

Another two employees leave. Yup, IW employees are leaving because the former fired heads of the division stole money from them as opposed to the wionderful bosses atv ACTI.

 

Face it, ACTI has stolen money from ACTI including the big wigs there, and the employees at IW have had enough and theyr'e probably sneaking out as soon as they can depending on their individual contracts. Yet, ACTI is supposedly acting on their behalf? Come on.

 

And, again, you lump me in with everyone who 'automatically' attacked ACTI which I did not do. Do you nto read.

 

Bottom line is ACTI stole money that does not belong to them and even admit it (though they use the term 'withholding'). It's not their privledge to do so. btw, You say the IW foudners don't represent IW but that's bullocks and everyone knows as no doubt any negotiations between ACTI and IW was done with them as representatives of their entire division. L0L

 

Bottom line is when someone does work for you and you make tons of money off them, you better pay them. Or its theft. Period.

They may have represented during contract negotiations but they aren't legally the same identity. THAT is a key point, you can't have money that goes to your mother because you were the one who talked to the bank for it.

 

Again, the stealing was something I said, nothing that acti mentioned (jesus, if you're gonna pound me for lumping you in, at least get try not to do the same). But they may have the ability to with hold if they manage to prove that west and zamp took to much from previous bonus pools for themselves (which is their argument).

 

Ted Turner may have been in charge of Turner Broadcasting and getting money for their success, but once he was bought out of his own empire, he didn't get nearly as big a part of the pie (as he was just a stock holder) and then he wouldn't get a cut of the profits from actions taken while he was there. It's really that simple. Just because you run something doesn't make its success your success. Saying that West and Zamp are owed a % of the profits when the legal entity that made the game was Infinity Ward is ludicrous.

[Nepenthe]

Ted Turner may have been in charge of Turner Broadcasting and getting money for their success, but once he was bought out of his own empire, he didn't get nearly as big a part of the pie (as he was just a stock holder) and then he wouldn't get a cut of the profits from actions taken while he was there. It's really that simple. Just because you run something doesn't make its success your success. Saying that West and Zamp are owed a % of the profits when the legal entity that made the game was Infinity Ward is ludicrous.

 

You might find that most of the world disagrees with you. Not saying you're wrong, but that's the way the world works.

[Volourn]

4 more IW employees throw Activbision in the trash, and a total of 7 have joined the IW founders' new company. Yet, Activision was the supposed 'heroes' of this story fighting for the rights of the common IW employee? Ha. It's rather obvious who IW employees side with.

[Orogun01]

4 more IW employees throw Activbision in the trash, and a total of 7 have joined the IW founders' new company. Yet, Activision was the supposed 'heroes' of this story fighting for the rights of the common IW employee? Ha. It's rather obvious who IW employees side with.

Sorry, but could you cite sources. Please.

[Calax]

4 more IW employees throw Activbision in the trash, and a total of 7 have joined the IW founders' new company. Yet, Activision was the supposed 'heroes' of this story fighting for the rights of the common IW employee? Ha. It's rather obvious who IW employees side with.

Neither part of the case is a hero, that much was made clear by everyone in the thread, except (I guess) you.

[Volourn]

"Sorry, but could you cite sources. Please."

 

You want sources, go read a biography or a court room. Please. I really don't care if you believe me as whether or not you believe me doesn't change the facts that IW employees are quitting ACTI and going to work for their former bosses. LMAO

 

 

 

"Neither part of the case is a hero, that much was made clear by everyone in the thread, except (I guess) you."

 

Have you read the thread? A certain someone claimed that ACTI was acting in the best inetrest of IW employees because the foudners who got canned were 'stealing' from them. Sounds like he was callingt hem ehroes to me.

 

I don't think the UW fiounders are heroes. But, I bet all the IW employees who are throwing ACTI in the trash can more than likely do.

[Calax]

I wasn't saying that Acti was "saving" them. I just said that they MIGHT have stolen something, which you took up as me saying it's the gods honest truth that they were stealing. I never said that they could only have stolen and specifically mentioned that they'd also stated that they felt that the bonuses had been payed out due to West and Zamps previous takings from the bonus pool.

 

You know for somebody who was anal about "Get what I said right" you certainly suck at following your own instructions.

[Orogun01]

"Sorry, but could you cite sources. Please."

 

You want sources, go read a biography or a court room. Please. I really don't care if you believe me as whether or not you believe me doesn't change the facts that IW employees are quitting ACTI and going to work for their former bosses. LMAO

I asked because I'm interested on the details not because I doubt you.

[Volourn]

"I wasn't saying that Acti was "saving" them. I just said that they MIGHT have stolen something, which you took up as me saying it's the gods honest truth that they were stealing. I never said that they could only have stolen and specifically mentioned that they'd also stated that they felt that the bonuses had been payed out due to West and Zamps previous takings from the bonus pool.

 

You know for somebody who was anal about "Get what I said right" you certainly suck at following your own instructions."

 

You said that ACTI doesn't want to pay them the money they're after because ACTif eels they got more than their share and that, in fact, the two founders stole bonus money meant for the other IW employees. You made it veryc elar you thought this accusation was truth. Well, if it was true, I seriously doubt the employees in question woudl choose to quit their current employer who wnats to help them get money 'stolen' from them and then go and work for the former bosses who supposedly rip them off. There is no logic to that line of thought.

 

I know if my direct superiors were taking money that my company's owners meant for me to have I sure wouldn't quit my job to go work for them. L0L

Edited April 24, 2010 by Volourn

[Calax]

"I wasn't saying that Acti was "saving" them. I just said that they MIGHT have stolen something, which you took up as me saying it's the gods honest truth that they were stealing. I never said that they could only have stolen and specifically mentioned that they'd also stated that they felt that the bonuses had been payed out due to West and Zamps previous takings from the bonus pool.

 

You know for somebody who was anal about "Get what I said right" you certainly suck at following your own instructions."

 

You said that ACTI doesn't want to pay them the money they're after because ACTif eels they got more than their share and that, in fact, the two founders stole bonus money meant for the other IW employees. You made it veryc elar you thought this accusation was truth. Well, if it was true, I seriously doubt the employees in question woudl choose to quit their current employer who wnats to help them get money 'stolen' from them and then go and work for the former bosses who supposedly rip them off. There is no logic to that line of thought.

 

I know if my direct superiors were taking money that my company's owners meant for me to have I sure wouldn't quit my job to go work for them. L0L

I said no such thing as truth, I said that as a possibility that you immediately latched onto as me saying it was gods honest truth.

[Dakar]

"I wasn't saying that Acti was "saving" them. I just said that they MIGHT have stolen something, which you took up as me saying it's the gods honest truth that they were stealing. I never said that they could only have stolen and specifically mentioned that they'd also stated that they felt that the bonuses had been payed out due to West and Zamps previous takings from the bonus pool.

 

You know for somebody who was anal about "Get what I said right" you certainly suck at following your own instructions."

 

You said that ACTI doesn't want to pay them the money they're after because ACTif eels they got more than their share and that, in fact, the two founders stole bonus money meant for the other IW employees. You made it veryc elar you thought this accusation was truth. Well, if it was true, I seriously doubt the employees in question woudl choose to quit their current employer who wnats to help them get money 'stolen' from them and then go and work for the former bosses who supposedly rip them off. There is no logic to that line of thought.

 

I know if my direct superiors were taking money that my company's owners meant for me to have I sure wouldn't quit my job to go work for them. L0L

I said no such thing as truth, I said that as a possibility that you immediately latched onto as me saying it was gods honest truth.

 

You clearly re-iterated many times you thought Activision were in the right here and that the founders of IW needed to be "taken down a notch".

 

I think its pretty clear the only people who think Activision were in the right here are the executives that have managed to bleed talent from their most successful developer.

[Calax]

"I wasn't saying that Acti was "saving" them. I just said that they MIGHT have stolen something, which you took up as me saying it's the gods honest truth that they were stealing. I never said that they could only have stolen and specifically mentioned that they'd also stated that they felt that the bonuses had been payed out due to West and Zamps previous takings from the bonus pool.

 

You know for somebody who was anal about "Get what I said right" you certainly suck at following your own instructions."

 

You said that ACTI doesn't want to pay them the money they're after because ACTif eels they got more than their share and that, in fact, the two founders stole bonus money meant for the other IW employees. You made it veryc elar you thought this accusation was truth. Well, if it was true, I seriously doubt the employees in question woudl choose to quit their current employer who wnats to help them get money 'stolen' from them and then go and work for the former bosses who supposedly rip them off. There is no logic to that line of thought.

 

I know if my direct superiors were taking money that my company's owners meant for me to have I sure wouldn't quit my job to go work for them. L0L

I said no such thing as truth, I said that as a possibility that you immediately latched onto as me saying it was gods honest truth.

 

You clearly re-iterated many times you thought Activision were in the right here and that the founders of IW needed to be "taken down a notch".

 

I think its pretty clear the only people who think Activision were in the right here are the executives that have managed to bleed talent from their most successful developer.

Not really, West and Zamp did break their contract by openly attempting to court another publisher, WELL before their contract was over, and then went so far as to blatantly ignore orders handed down by their bosses on a game. The question is not "Who broke the contract" but "Who broke the contract first".

 

Why do you seem to think that IW can do no wrong, walk on water, and fall into a cesspit and come out smelling as if they'd just taken a bath. I never said activision did no wrong, but decryed the assertion that OBVIOUSLY Activision was at fault in this whole thing that somebody like you appears to hold because "LOL TEY TEH BIG CORPORATION AND THEY IS ALWAYS MONEY LOVING BASTARDS!" What I had put foreward with the stealing was one POSSIBLE scenario (Which I stated in my original post that people conveniently forgot) that activision was stating that was then invalidated as more info came out (but people still clung to it as weapon).

 

Also, court of public opinion does not truth make.

[Nepenthe]

"Sorry, but could you cite sources. Please."

 

You want sources, go read a biography or a court room. Please. I really don't care if you believe me as whether or not you believe me doesn't change the facts that IW employees are quitting ACTI and going to work for their former bosses. LMAO

I asked because I'm interested on the details not because I doubt you.

 

I saw the item on IGN earlier this week, I believe. It had a nice bit of damage control on the behalf of Activision, they were really waxing rhapsodic on the quality of work environment they provide.

[Orogun01]

"Sorry, but could you cite sources. Please."

 

You want sources, go read a biography or a court room. Please. I really don't care if you believe me as whether or not you believe me doesn't change the facts that IW employees are quitting ACTI and going to work for their former bosses. LMAO

I asked because I'm interested on the details not because I doubt you.

 

I saw the item on IGN earlier this week, I believe. It had a nice bit of damage control on the behalf of Activision, they were really waxing rhapsodic on the quality of work environment they provide.

Thanks.