WTF? No Infinite Ammo in AP?

[Pop]

I hear what you're saying, but I think you have to face the fact that in practice, most games, while having resources, don't really have a resource management angle. At least, in most games they don't prevent the halfway determined player from being in a position where he'll never want for what he needs, be it healing, cash or gear. Usually this ensures that fewer people will walk away from the game due to frustration.

[lord of flies]

Shooters have more and more regenerating life bars, even though they used to have "resource management" of hit points. Why? Because it allows the designers to design along the assumption that, going into an encounter, the player has full health. If there are no extra-powerful weapons such as rocket launchers which necessitate ammunition in order to force the player to use a more baseline weapon, it would not unbalance the game to say that the player simply has "enough" ammunition.

 

Resource management is good for SKoreans playing pro SC, not for my video game where I run around slamming people's faces into tables.

[Slowtrain]

Because it allows the designers to design along the assumption that, going into an encounter, the player has full health.

 

 

This is a good thing?

 

Seems rather dull to me.

[Oner]

Funny how people complain when somethings done in their interest for a change.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Resource management is good for SKoreans playing pro SC, not for my video game where I run around slamming people's faces into tables.

How does ammo have anything to do with slamming people's faces into tables? See... that's what you do AFTER you run out of ammo.

[lord of flies]

Because it allows the designers to design along the assumption that, going into an encounter, the player has full health.

This is a good thing?

 

Seems rather dull to me.

Imagine designing an encounter. It has a particular amount of difficulty, carefully calibrated by enemy types, environment, stuff lying around, et cetera. Now imagine that you start that encounter with 8 out of 100 hit points left. It will be tooth-grindingly painful to make your way through it.

 

Haven't you ever had that experience? Running around in HL1 with your hitpoints in the single digits, wearing through your hard drive making saves every few seconds? It sucks.

[Oner]

I loved that. The challenge wasn't surviving the encounter but not getting hurt.

 

Then again, if you got hurt, you usually lost most of your health (HL, Unreal).

[213374U]

But AP isn't supposed to be a "pure" shooter anyway, so bringing up HL for comparison isn't such a good idea.

 

FPS combat = reflexes, coordination, practice

 

"Action" RPG combat = problem solving

 

Different focus, different mechanics.

Edited February 3, 2010 by 213374U

[bhlaab]

If guns had unlimited ammo, why would anybody ever want to use melee?

 

Imagine designing an encounter. It has a particular amount of difficulty, carefully calibrated by enemy types, environment, stuff lying around, et cetera. Now imagine that you start that encounter with 8 out of 100 hit points left. It will be tooth-grindingly painful to make your way through it.

 

The fact that they have to force health to always return to 100% says to me that the encounters were less carefully calibrated. If you're running around in HL1 with 8 hp, that's your fault isn't it?

 

The type of gameplay that infinite health advocates is:

-Be suicidal for a couple seconds

-Duck behind cover and wait for regeneration

 

So already it's harder to a fast-paced game because players will be stopping to rest every moment or so. It's also harder to make a tactical game because any mistake can be immediately corrected.

Health regen also seems to necessitate a style of gameplay where you move from one heavily scripted setpiece room to another, since simply fighting one lone grunt and moving on would pose very little challenge.

[bhlaab]

And half life had health stations three feet apart anyway!

[Humodour]

And half life had health stations three feet apart anyway!

 

Half-Life had aliens.

[Slowtrain]

Because it allows the designers to design along the assumption that, going into an encounter, the player has full health.

This is a good thing?

 

Seems rather dull to me.

Imagine designing an encounter. It has a particular amount of difficulty, carefully calibrated by enemy types, environment, stuff lying around, et cetera. Now imagine that you start that encounter with 8 out of 100 hit points left. It will be tooth-grindingly painful to make your way through it.

 

Haven't you ever had that experience? Running around in HL1 with your hitpoints in the single digits, wearing through your hard drive making saves every few seconds? It sucks.

 

 

*shrugs*

 

I've been playing games for a long time. Never had a problem with limited health in gameplay.

 

 

A good portion of my best gaming experiences have occured when low on either health or ammo or both.

[213374U]

A proper left-wing design philosophy can and should provide every player with "enough" health and ammunition to face whatever challenges the game throws at them. If you find yourselves facing a lack of either, it's due to the much discussed shortcomings of bourgeois, materialistic approaches that focus on how much the player can hoard, encouraging unequal distribution! Open your eyes and embrace the revolution!

[lord of flies]

If guns had unlimited ammo, why would anybody ever want to use melee?

Ever played Metal Slug? Melee has advantages, like no reload time and (generally) more damage. Ammunition concerns are not the primary motivation for players to use melee attacks in video games, since they are designed based upon the assumption that the player will have ammunition the whole game.

The fact that they have to force health to always return to 100% says to me that the encounters were less carefully calibrated. If you're running around in HL1 with 8 hp, that's your fault isn't it?

Hmm, no, it isn't. Forcing health to return to 100% means that encounters can be more carefully calibrated, since in addition to knowing enemy types, numbers, and environment, the designer also knows how much HP the player has (all of it).

The type of gameplay that infinite health advocates is:

-Be suicidal for a couple seconds

-Duck behind cover and wait for regeneration

Only if regeneration occurs shortly after the last time you took damage, enemies don't have the intelligence to flank you while you're hiding, and your total hit points are high enough for you to be suicidal for a couple seconds.

Health regen also seems to necessitate a style of gameplay where you move from one heavily scripted setpiece room to another, since simply fighting one lone grunt and moving on would pose very little challenge.

As opposed to normally, where fighting one lone grunt and moving on is very easy?

[bhlaab]

If guns had unlimited ammo, why would anybody ever want to use melee?

Ever played Metal Slug? Melee has advantages, like no reload time and (generally) more damage. Ammunition concerns are not the primary motivation for players to use melee attacks in video games, since they are designed based upon the assumption that the player will have ammunition the whole game.

 

Of all the inspirations for Alpha Protocl, I doubt Metal Slug was one of them.

And metal slug HAD AMMO for everything besides the pistol!

And since when are all shooting games designed based on the assumption that the player has ammunition for every single gun the whole time?

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

*shrugs*

 

I've been playing games for a long time. Never had a problem with limited health in gameplay.

 

 

A good portion of my best gaming experiences have occured when low on either health or ammo or both.

 

JA2 has regen health.

[Slowtrain]

*shrugs*

 

I've been playing games for a long time. Never had a problem with limited health in gameplay.

 

 

A good portion of my best gaming experiences have occured when low on either health or ammo or both.

 

JA2 has regen health.

 

 

Outside of battle on the strategic map, you can doctor your wounded over a period of days and they will regain lost health, but that's not the sort of regen I'm referring to.

[lord of flies]

Of all the inspirations for Alpha Protocl, I doubt Metal Slug was one of them.

And metal slug HAD AMMO for everything besides the pistol!

Yeah, exactly. The pistol had infinite ammunition, but when I play (and I'm very good at Metal Slug, btw) I stab the **** out of people, even when I'm just jumping around with the pistol. It's less likely to miss, can take out enemies with shields, et cetera.

And since when are all shooting games designed based on the assumption that the player has ammunition for every single gun the whole time?

The assumption that you can enough ammo to shoot people is common, even in FPSs with weapon libraries that are limited at any given point in time (e.g. Halo). Imagine playing Halo and having no ammo. It's truly a horrifying prospect. AP has you running around with your custom weapons (and, IIRC, they've cut down the number of weapons you carry on a given mission to keep Mike from looking like the Terminator), with no particular guarantee that the enemies will be using appropriate weapons.

[Slowtrain]

The assumption that you DON'T, WON'T and CAN'T have enough ammo makes for a more interesting game.

 

And the assumption that you may or may not have enough ammo depending.... is even better.

[Oner]

Your weapon is choice.

 

"Hmm, should I buy that extra box of shotgun shells?

 

With infinite ammo, you wouldn't get this choice.

There.

[lord of flies]

Your weapon is choice.

 

"Hmm, should I buy that extra box of shotgun shells?

 

With infinite ammo, you wouldn't get this choice.

There.

"Hmm, should I spray and pray my way through the level?"

 

With finite ammo, you wouldn't get this choice.

[GreasyDogMeat]

"Hmm, should I spray and pray my way through the level?"

 

With finite ammo, you wouldn't get this choice.

You still get that choice. It would just have a consequence: running out of ammo. Isn't that what RPGs are supposed to have? C&C?

[Oner]

I pwnz0r u nubz w/ mah insane tr0ll lgoic skillz!

[lord of flies]

"Hmm, should I spray and pray my way through the level?"

 

With finite ammo, you wouldn't get this choice.

You still get that choice. It would just have a consequence: running out of ammo. Isn't that what RPGs are supposed to have? C&C?

It already has a consequence: you can't hit ****. You don't need to force me to make burst firing a valid gameplay choice. You do need infinite ammo to make spraying okay (which is pretty fun, even if not the most effective strategy).

[Vilhelm]

I don't see the problem with limited ammo, to be honest. And there's nothing innovative about infinite ammo... shmup's have been doing it for the past thirty years.

 

It's sad to see all that hate pouring out of you, lord of flies.