Google tells the Chinese government to sit on it and rotate

[Humodour]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60B5RV20100113

 

Well done Google. I doubt Yahoo or Microsoft will have the balls or scruples to do similar.

 

EDIT: Here is Google's very public blog entry on the matter: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new...h-to-china.html

Edited January 13, 2010 by Krezack

[Wrath of Dagon]

Would be a rare stand on principle. Let's see if it happens.

[Humodour]

Also, Australian and Brazilian mining megacorporations have decided to shun China (their biggest customer) and suggest against their executives visiting there, and negotiate mineral price contracts with Japan instead - with China having the option of accepting the Japanese deal or having no minerals to fuel their growth with. This move comes after the Chinese government arrested the top executives of some of these mining companies for "stealing government secrets" because they wouldn't give them cheaper ore prices last year. It became a diplomatic issue between China and Australia. For reference, iron ore prices are now double the price China ended up unofficially accepting (again, the price negotiated with Japan and South Korea) - and China had wanted to milk a further 33% price cut on that already low price. Pathetic.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...xnyJn8EmHFzQTaw

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/deb991bc-ff1b-11...144feab49a.html

Edited January 13, 2010 by Krezack

[Masterfade]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60B5RV20100113

 

Well done Google. I doubt Yahoo or Microsoft will have the balls or scruples to do similar.

 

EDIT: Here is Google's very public blog entry on the matter: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new...h-to-china.html

 

Yahoo pulled out of China years ago.

 

Microsoft must be jumping with joy now, though. I predict when Google's gone most of its users in China would swarm to Bing.

[Tigranes]

Also, Australian and Brazilian mining megacorporations have decided to shun China (their biggest customer) and suggest against their executives visiting there, and negotiate mineral price contracts with Japan instead - with China having the option of accepting the Japanese deal or having no minerals to fuel their growth with. This move comes after the Chinese government arrested the top executives of some of these mining companies for "stealing government secrets" because they wouldn't give them cheaper ore prices last year. It became a diplomatic issue between China and Australia. For reference, iron ore prices are now double the price China ended up unofficially accepting (again, the price negotiated with Japan and South Korea) - and China had wanted to milk a further 33% price cut on that already low price. Pathetic.

 

Actually, this one has very little to do with morals or principles. China had been growing ever more stronger, more determined, smarter and more organised in this sector for the last few years, and Australia, for instance, had openly seen this as a threat, talking about the 'Chinese menace' and getting pretty worked up about it. As by far the biggest customer for these megacorporations China had been using pretty aggressive negotiation tactics, as had been Australia.

 

Stuff got messy last year when Chinalco (China) nearly took over Rio Tinto (Australia), and lots of people in the Aus press and government ran around talking openly about China taking over their country and other such nonsense fearmongering, which, combined with strategic lobbying, led to Rio Tinto standing up Chinalco quite embarrassingly. Later, China jails several Rio Tinto officials for a token spying excuse - so dirty stuff from both sides.

 

China might want to milk a 33% price cut, but iron prices have been increasing at much higher percentages than that every year, and now Australian corps are successfuly outmaneuvring the Chinese, prices will get even higher now. This has nothing to do with principles, just business.

[Calax]

Just wanna say, Google rocks. Also if china doesn't start playing ball with companies it's gonna watch that famous economy collapse under the weight of angry companies

[Hiro Protagonist]

Yahoo pulled out of China years ago.

 

Microsoft must be jumping with joy now, though. I predict when Google's gone most of its users in China would swarm to Bing.

 

No, most chinese use Baidu. Even my girlfriend's neice who is here in Australia studying uses Baidu on her laptop and not google. If there were chinese in china using google and google pulled out, then they would probably go back to Baidu.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Hiro Protagonist

[Purkake]

[

Yahoo pulled out of China years ago.

 

Microsoft must be jumping with joy now, though. I predict when Google's gone most of its users in China would swarm to Bing.

 

No, most chinese use Baidu. Even my girlfriend's neice who is here in Australia studying uses Baida on her laptop and not google. If there were chinese in china using google and google pulled out, then they would probably go back to Baidu.

Heathen!

 

 

At least it's not bing

 

[Humodour]

Actually, this one has very little to do with morals or principles.

 

Didn't say it did. It is, however, another example of corportions refusing to let the Chinese government dictate how they should do things.

 

Stuff got messy last year when Chinalco (China) nearly took over Rio Tinto (Australia), and lots of people in the Aus press and government ran around talking openly about China taking over their country and other such nonsense fearmongering, which, combined with strategic lobbying, led to Rio Tinto standing up Chinalco quite embarrassingly. Later, China jails several Rio Tinto officials for a token spying excuse - so dirty stuff from both sides.

 

Rio Tinto gets a more lucrative offer from BHP (one which doesn't involve them selling controlling stakes to their biggest customer) as well as significantly improved market conditions and decides to dump the deal (which is perfectly legal) and you call that dirty stuff? Dream on. The market doesn't run on hurt feelings. Corportions don't even have feelings, Tigranes. Arresting a company's executives on trumped up charges because you didn't get your way is not how a civilised society acts.

 

Also, people in Australia were right to be concerned - unlike all other investors in Australia's resources sectors (e.g. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Canada, Britain), the Chinese companies were all state-owned and controlled. China doesn't play fair with this stuff - look at thier actions in the tungsten and niobium markets, or their hypocritcal foreign investment policy, which espouses that foreign countries should open up their markets to foreign investment more, whilst simultaneously severely restricting any foreign investment into China.

[Humodour]

Just wanna say, Google rocks. Also if china doesn't start playing ball with companies it's gonna watch that famous economy collapse under the weight of angry companies

 

My concern is that unfortunately this will just empower Baidu, which is controlled by China's government. Any semblance of freedom in the Chinese search market is now forfeit, just like their news media sector (try reading Xinhua one day - uhg).

 

Of course, strategically and economically it's a smart business decision for Google, and there's no questioning the human rights aspect of it. But it won't improve the freedom situation in China any except perhaps through the coverage and pressure the issue generates.

[Pop]

Convenient bull****. Google's kowtowed to Chinese censorship for years, and only now that China's state-run service is mopping the floor with Google's chinese affiliate and google.cn is crashing and burning, now Google has found its voice against this oh-so-awful government oppression. Gosh, how brave of them, and crafty too - they're betting that global public pressure will give them leverage to get China to lift its censorship restrictions, thus handing them an advantage in the market.

 

Ethics - for that one time in a million where acting completely without it doesn't give you what you want.

[Calax]

Just wanna say, Google rocks. Also if china doesn't start playing ball with companies it's gonna watch that famous economy collapse under the weight of angry companies

 

My concern is that unfortunately this will just empower Baidu, which is controlled by China's government. Any semblance of freedom in the Chinese search market is now forfeit, just like their news media sector (try reading Xinhua one day - uhg).

 

Of course, strategically and economically it's a smart business decision for Google, and there's no questioning the human rights aspect of it. But it won't improve the freedom situation in China any except perhaps through the coverage and pressure the issue generates.

Except that if this keeps up they'll end up with companies withdrawing support or jacking up prices on their products to the point where they themselves go bankrupt trying to do what they do. I mean if more stuff like the minerals problem happens they'll end up loosing a bunch of contracts because they can no longer afford to be the lowest bidder.

[Rosbjerg]

Convenient bull****. Google's kowtowed to Chinese censorship for years, and only now that China's state-run service is mopping the floor with Google's chinese affiliate and google.cn is crashing and burning, now Google has found its voice against this oh-so-awful government oppression. Gosh, how brave of them, and crafty too - they're betting that global public pressure will give them leverage to get China to lift its censorship restrictions, thus handing them an advantage in the market.

 

Ethics - for that one time in a million where acting completely without it doesn't give you what you want.

 

Amen..

[Tigranes]

Didn't say it did. It is, however, another example of corportions refusing to let the Chinese government dictate how they should do things.

 

Sorry, I read too much into it then. However, it's not an example of that, either. The key point is that it's part of regular negotiations that is par for the course, and the tide could well turn the other way into 'kow-towing' for the Chinese in a few years. It was about Rio Tinto trying to get the best deal possible to save its pretty poor books, and BHP/Rio trying to carve out a very profitable pricing scheme (index pricing) for the future. China 'bullied' the corps just as much as the corps are bullying China, in terms of effects. It's just that China's methods are more unseemly.

 

Definitely agree that China's 'government is the company' deal is worrying though, and should not be tolerated.

[Humodour]

Convenient bull****. Google's kowtowed to Chinese censorship for years

 

Years? Google entered China mid-2006, pending the changes in the censorship laws. The censorship laws got worse, and the Chinese government launched cybercrime attacks to root out information on Chinese human rights activists. End result: Google gets pissed.

 

It's funny how for people like you think companies can only be either good or bad... or perhaps just bad. Google has always shown that they care as much about civil and human rights as they do about profit (and I'll not deny they care about profit). You don't need too dig far to discover that - first-hand accounts from employees and ex-employees, histories on their executives, Google's own consistent actions over their 10 years of existence - these aren't greedy sociopaths out to rip everyone off and watch the world burn in the process.

[Humodour]

Step #1: Visit www.baidu.com.

Step #2: Search for Google or blogspot.com. Note that both work.

Step #3: Now search for google.blogspot.com.

Step #4: Enjoy your Baidu lockout. You should be able to search again in 5-10 minutes, I haven't timed the duration exactly.

 

I tried it, it works. ****ing hilarious. And very sad.

[Meshugger]

Convenient bull****. Google's kowtowed to Chinese censorship for years, and only now that China's state-run service is mopping the floor with Google's chinese affiliate and google.cn is crashing and burning, now Google has found its voice against this oh-so-awful government oppression. Gosh, how brave of them, and crafty too - they're betting that global public pressure will give them leverage to get China to lift its censorship restrictions, thus handing them an advantage in the market.

 

Ethics - for that one time in a million where acting completely without it doesn't give you what you want.

 

That pretty much sums it up.

 

The chinese 'boom' interests me greatly though. Having an artificially low currency in order keep the exports high while trying to become a consumer society is something that will not work in the long run. Adding a gigantic stimuluspackage to stateowned companies with a history of having shady businesspractices to the mix doesn't sound like a good business practice to me.

 

Oh, did i forget to mention that there's a surplus of 24 million men in China? Think of the social implications for a minute.

[Walsingham]

I don't see why armchair heroes always argue that you can't be truly ethical unless it's NOT in your own interests. Balls to that, I say. It's just not sustainable. I like this move by Google, but I think the more crucial point is that the gmail accounts got bust open like ...erm... I can't think of a non-rude metaphor.

[Pidesco]

^popcorn.

[Calax]

wasn't google the only group that didn't turn over search info to the feds when bush demanded it too?

 

That probably wouldn't be in their best interest financially either.

[Masterfade]

I don't see why armchair heroes always argue that you can't be truly ethical unless it's NOT in your own interests. Balls to that, I say. It's just not sustainable. I like this move by Google, but I think the more crucial point is that the gmail accounts got bust open like ...erm... I can't think of a non-rude metaphor.

 

 

I could not see how closing down the Chinese version of Google would help making gmail more secure though. Unless the plan is getting gmail banned in China so Chinese activists will not be able to use gmail at all thus remove the incentive for agents to hack the system.

 

Anyway, I may be quite alone in this but I think Internet censorship could be a good thing. It creates jobs in the form of human censors and researchers on monitoring technologies. It also creates opportunities for enterprising individuals and VPN providers. I've read somewhere a lot of Chinese IT students earn a good chunk of money (10 to 20 USD per computer) helping others setting up VPN.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Masterfade

[Lare Kikkeli]

Anyway, I may be quite alone in this but I think Internet censorship could be a good thing. It creates jobs in the form of human censors and researchers on monitoring technologies. It also creates opportunities for enterprising individuals and VPN providers. I've read somewhere a lot of Chinese IT students earn a good chunk of money (10 to 20 USD per computer) helping others setting up VPN.

 

what

[Humodour]

I don't see why armchair heroes always argue that you can't be truly ethical unless it's NOT in your own interests. Balls to that, I say. It's just not sustainable. I like this move by Google, but I think the more crucial point is that the gmail accounts got bust open like ...erm... I can't think of a non-rude metaphor.

 

Only two did, and they were unable to retrieve the email bodies. Still, China's espionage is worrying. Google seems to be fed up and so to does the US Government, since they've officially asked the Chinese government to explain itself over the state-sponsored cybercrime.

 

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/01/135105.htm

 

Google has now moved all gmail accounts to HTTPS by default. This should prevent things like MITM attacks and this move is likely a direct result of the compromised email accounts of the Chinese human rights activists.

[Humodour]

Anyway, I may be quite alone in this but I think Internet censorship could be a good thing. It creates jobs in the form of human censors and researchers on monitoring technologies. It also creates opportunities for enterprising individuals and VPN providers. I've read somewhere a lot of Chinese IT students earn a good chunk of money (10 to 20 USD per computer) helping others setting up VPN.

 

You're a disturbed individual.

[Lare Kikkeli]

he sees a way to get rich quick

 

1. censor internet

2. ?????

3. profit!