Walsingham Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I really like the Indians, sure they are weird, difficult to understand, prone to unbelievable bureaucracy and can be so confusing that you feel like punching them .. but the average dude usually knows how to simply get **** done without making a big fuss about it! Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 A little lesson for the mulititudes of people who seem to want their government to take over everything. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theslug Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Sounds great but I think its just a matter of time before tragedy strikes. The guy maybe Indian but he's probably no geologist/engineer/miner/astronaut. There was a time when I questioned the ability for the schizoid to ever experience genuine happiness, at the very least for a prolonged segment of time. I am no closer to finding the answer, however, it has become apparent that contentment is certainly a realizable goal. I find these results to be adequate, if not pleasing. Unfortunately, connection is another subject entirely. When one has sufficiently examined the mind and their emotional constructs, connection can be easily imitated. More data must be gleaned and further collated before a sufficient judgment can be reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 He could have been the next Stephen Hawking or Einstein, but instead he wastes his talent on digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 A little lesson for the mulititudes of people who seem to want their government to take over everything. And the lesson is that it's better to do in 22 years what a municipal work crew could have done in a week Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy. If by inspiring you mean stupid, then OK. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarlequin Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 A little lesson for the mulititudes of people who seem to want their government to take over everything. Right... because letting big business run things is soooo much better in the end. *rolls eyes* At least the govt does not care about making a profit. Hells they have made loosing money science. Let the ppl who couldnt care less about making a buck run the show is fine by me. Better then some profit wh*re compnay. World of Darkness News http://www.wodnews.net --- "I cannot profess to be a theologian; but it seems to me that Christians who believe in a super human Satan have got themselves into a logical impasse with regard to their own religion. For either God can not prevent the mischief of Satan, in which case he is not omnipotent; or else He could do so if he wished, but will not, in which case He is not benevolent. Fortunately, being a pagan witch, I am not called upon to solve this problem." - Doreen Valiente Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy. If by inspiring you mean stupid, then OK. Hmmm. You may have a point. But then I'm usually doing stupiod things, so being inspired by stupid makes sense. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Right... because letting big business run things is soooo much better in the end. *rolls eyes* At least the govt does not care about making a profit. Hells they have made loosing money science. Let the ppl who couldnt care less about making a buck run the show is fine by me. Better then some profit wh*re compnay. I might live to be a 100 but I will never... ever understand this way of thinking. First of all, you do realize governments don't actually build anything right? They contract PRIVATE COMPANIES to the building for them. And those companies do make a profit off the job. Now since that is government money that pays that contract and governments do not "earn" money (they confiscate it), whose money do you think is really paying for the profit earned by the contractor? You are. Everyone who pays taxes is. I have never understood why some people think business is bad and government is good. The largest, most powerful company in the world can not take a thing from you that you do not freely give it. They can not take your home, they can not confiscate your money, they can not throw you in prison, they can not sieze your property, and if you do business with them and they deal with you wrongly or in bad faith or breach a contract you can take them to court. The smallest governments right here in the US can seize your home, seize all of your assets and property, and can easily throw you in prison and even if all this is done wrongfully you can not seek redress in the court. You can try but you chances of success are very small, and even if you do succed how many years of your life were lost fighting them? Governments are immune from punitive action and damages in court here in the US, the very best you can hope for is to get back what you had...years and tens of thousands of dollars later. Business cares about profit because their cash reserves are finite. If the business is not run well and runs out of money it will cease to exist. If a government is not run well, and it runs out of money it will simply raise taxes and continue running. If it continues to be willfully wasteful (why you think this is a good thing I have no idea) it will and can simply continue raising taxes until it is either overthrown, voted out, ot the taxpayers simply go elsewhere. For a real world example of this check out The First Failed State thread right here on this very forum. So... after looking at these comparisons between government and business, who should you really be afraid of? And check out my sig while you're at it. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 GD, what you're saying isn't upheld by facts. The British government used to build all sorts of stuff - bridges, buildings, harbours - using their own personnel. It's just a question of how they choose to define their capabilities. Of course they don't much any more, and the consequence is these godawful public-private things which are badly made. Also, corporations routinely abuse their political clout to have governments act on their behalf. And that's not to mention the hiring of private mercenaries. Nor aggressive punitive lawsuits. I'm no commie, but to assert that corporations are ALWAYS good and govts ALWAYS evil is just bonkers. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) GD, what you're saying isn't upheld by facts. The British government used to build all sorts of stuff - bridges, buildings, harbours - using their own personnel. It's just a question of how they choose to define their capabilities. Of course they don't much any more, and the consequence is these godawful public-private things which are badly made. Also, corporations routinely abuse their political clout to have governments act on their behalf. And that's not to mention the hiring of private mercenaries. Nor aggressive punitive lawsuits. I'm no commie, but to assert that corporations are ALWAYS good and govts ALWAYS evil is just bonkers. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying business is always good or government is always bad. Both are both good and bad and both have a necassary role to play. Iam just pointiong out that many posters around here seem to be under the impression that business is always bad and vice versa. In an enviorment totally absent government, business will run amok. In an enviorment totally absent business, well, the USSR was such a joyful place to live wan't it? (New flash LoF, that whole "Iron Curtain" thing was meant to keep people in, not out). But in general terms what I seaid was dead on correct. And as for the first point, I do not know how the government works in the UK but in the US contruction workers, engineers, etc are not kept on any govenment staff. All public contruction is privately contracted. *Pardon my typing and spelling please, I'm using a blackberry today and the se buttons atr too small for my fingers! Edited December 3, 2009 by Guard Dog "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy. If by inspiring you mean stupid, then OK. Hmmm. You may have a point. But then I'm usually doing stupiod things, so being inspired by stupid makes sense. Hey, it's definitely an A for effort. But probably an F for intelligence. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 [i have never understood why some people think business is bad and government is good. Well, mostly because in an ideal state a business exists exist for no other reason than to make as much money as possible regardless of who or what is damaged in the process while a government exists to protect its people. Granted those are ideal states and in the real world its mostly a matter of degrees rather than extremes. But it wasn't too long ago thast unregulated business had 8 year old children working in coal mines for pennies a day. So. And yes, govenments are models of inefficiency and waste but so are large businesses as well. Ineffiency and waste seems to generally scale mostly with size rather than type. SO I don't think there is much to recommend one over the other in that sense. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) @GD: Not to defend Harlie's (equally extreme, on the other side) point of view, but you're overstating. The powers of government are unquestionably greater than those of a private company, but in a modern representative democracy the restraints on the use of those powers are greater, too. Seizures, arrests, etc., require due process. Eminent domain requires just compensation. And public accountability through watchdog organizations, the free press, and the electoral process also provides a strong check on governmental overreaching. (Note: these are U.S. examples, but similar provisions are in place in most other western democracies.) There are statutory, common law, and contractual restraints on what businesses may do in their interactions with ordinary people, but they often aren't as rigorous, and enforcement of them usually requires some (often prohibitively expensive) litigation. Both businesses and governments sometimes give the citizenry reason to fear their power-- which fear seems greater and more reasonable is going to depend on your particular situation. (Sidenote: After working in gov't for a number of years, it always boggles my mind a bit to think that things like nepotism and bribery are legal in the private sector.) Edit: Also, I is slow-- I see that your tone moderated somewhat in your 9:22 (EST) post. Edited December 3, 2009 by Enoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 How ironic is it that I'm sitting in the lobby of the federal courthouse in Nashville and in about 30 min I'm going to go meet with a federal bueracrat who is, and I'll be kind, very impressed with his station in life and seems to enjoy making a royal pain of himself for no other reason than that he can. @Slowtrain, I do not believe for a second that any government sees the protection of the people as the reason for it's existence. The reason govenrment does anything it does os to pereptuate it's own power. If it can protect the people while doing that fine and good and I do believe most government employees and politicians will try to help the citizenry when it can provided it does not damage their power. But those same politicians will ruthlessly harm that same people if they can get away with it and it furthers the expansion of their power and influence. I fail to see how a business wanting to make oney is a bad thing? Apple wanted to make more money so they invented the ipod for people to buy. The wanted to sell more ipods and make more money so they made better ipods and sold more of them. If they did not care about making a profit there would be no ipods. If you do not want to contribute to Apple's profits then you don't have to buy an ipod. You can buy a Zune, or Sansa, or not buy one at all. Now on the other hand lets look at the new Obamanation Health Care bill the House just passed. If FORCES all citizens to BUY health insurance. From a private company if they wish, from the government if not. If you do not buy their insurance it is a crime and they will throw you in prison. On one hand Apple says "This thing is cool and you might enjoy it. Buy it if you wish". On the other Uncle Sam says "You MUST buy this, if not we'll take all of you money and imprison you". This is admittedly a simplified example but you see what I'm getting at here? "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theslug Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Isn't there a dude named Adam Smith who was like pretty fraekin smart and he said something like when people go out and try and make a profit they end up usually with a net gain for society becuase that man is creating jobs and distributable wealth and all sorts of good stuff. Me and my friend had a related argument and his response was to essentially look me in the eyes and go "come on dude corporations..." and that's what I'm sort of getting from Harlequin. But this isn't the industrial revolution where business could simply operate without regard to safety or government regulation. Business is good, profit is good, if you don't believe it go live in Uganda or stop complaining about stuff you don't know anything about and I'll stop pretending like I do. There was a time when I questioned the ability for the schizoid to ever experience genuine happiness, at the very least for a prolonged segment of time. I am no closer to finding the answer, however, it has become apparent that contentment is certainly a realizable goal. I find these results to be adequate, if not pleasing. Unfortunately, connection is another subject entirely. When one has sufficiently examined the mind and their emotional constructs, connection can be easily imitated. More data must be gleaned and further collated before a sufficient judgment can be reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lare Kikkeli Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Ah yes, the trickle down theory. Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) @Slowtrain, I do not believe for a second that any government sees the protection of the people as the reason for it's existence. Ultimately, I agree. WHich is why I referred to an ideal state vs a real world state. However, people's expectations are that the government will attempt to protect them and will hold the government accountable for that. And while a lot of governmental accountability is far beyond the reach of the average citizen, there is still more accountablity than large scale business, which essentially operates with impunity outside of governmental regulation. I fail to see how a business wanting to make oney is a bad thing?. I don't think I said it was "bad". I merely pointed out that businesses have as their singular goal to make money. It is illogical to expect them to be concerned about anything not directly related to making money unless someone (ie the government) is tapping them on the shoulder occasionally and saying, hey, you can't do that, it may be good for you but its bad for everyone else. edit: I just looked back at my original response and I did kind of say, indirectly, that business was bad. SO let me clarify that a bit by saying I don't think that businesses making money is bad (at all). I do think that there is a need for strong government regulation of how businessess operate, with the largest businessess that have potentially the greatest effects on the world needing the most regulation. Edited December 3, 2009 by Slowtrain Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Business isn't bad or good, it just is. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) If you believe it to be the solution to all society's ails you are kidding yourself though. When people talk of the great invisible benevolent hand of 'the market', I detect a tendency to regard the theories with a peculiar type of religious zeal. One *believes* wholeheartedly in the positive effects and regards any shortcomings as a result of someone (inevitably government) having violated the sanctity of the free movement of capital. Did someone mention Ayn Rand ? Edited December 3, 2009 by Gorgon Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Isn't there a dude named Adam Smith who was like pretty fraekin smart and he said something like when people go out and try and make a profit they end up usually with a net gain for society becuase that man is creating jobs and distributable wealth and all sorts of good stuff. Me and my friend had a related argument and his response was to essentially look me in the eyes and go "come on dude corporations..." and that's what I'm sort of getting from Harlequin. But this isn't the industrial revolution where business could simply operate without regard to safety or government regulation. Business is good, profit is good, if you don't believe it go live in Uganda or stop complaining about stuff you don't know anything about and I'll stop pretending like I do. I think the problem is that people doesnt differentiate between bussiness and big bussiness in their argumentation. Adam Smith was all for the former and against the latter. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vault_overseer Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) Ahhh, the crazy ass hindus Edited December 3, 2009 by vault_overseer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Really, would anybody want to use a tunnel that one oddly obsessed dude carved all by himself? I doubt that the guy has the engineering or geological expertise necessary to assess and ensure its structural soundness. (Indeed, the difficulties in making the passageway safe might well be the reason that the local government refused to take on the project.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 He shoudl hace called Mythbusters. They would have flown around the world to see if they could dig the tunnel with Coke and Mentos or something. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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