MW2 cotroversy (spoilers)

[lord of flies]

No fan of Nazi Germany... but I don't really consider Stalin's Russia all that far from the Nazis.

To say that National Socialism and Stalinism are comparable in evil is to say that Stalinism is worse, since fascism was a political reaction to communism.

 

The informal rape and murder which the Red Army occupying forces was caused, not by some sort of psychotic upper-level dictate as the Nazi war crimes were, but by a revenge mentality fueled by the massive human casualties that the people of the Soviet Union had suffered. Brothers, friends, mothers, were mercilessly killed by Nazi forces whose sole purpose was to clear out the aborigines so that the Germans could settle the area. Killing, mutilating and raping Germans (and perceived German collaborators) was a natural reaction. The difference is vast and should be self-evident.

 

Meanwhile, the "Great Purge" (the only actually comparable event, assuming that you know that the "Holodomor" was a natural famine) was aimed at political opposition but it is a much deeper story than that. There were counter-revolutionary elements in the military who were more than willing to turn on Stalin, and even taken together the Gulag was a remarkably nice system - most of the deaths occurred during the war, for obvious reasons. The political purge of his fellow Bolsheviks, while unjustifiable for the most part (e.g. Bukharin and Zinoviev), was a minor death toll, no worse or better than any other political violence practiced in the West.

[213374U]

I'm not a fan of Stalin's Russia in regards to its treatment of its own citizens but as far as the war effort is concerned, they did crush germany and didn't abuse the overwhelming power they had at the end of the war against the german population, even after every family lost a member. That takes a lot of forgiveness.

You are aware that after the fall of the USSR, a lot of files have been declassified, aren't you?

 

But yeah, every western historian is deeply biased and will cherry pick his sources, because he is from the west, while you are quite obviously possessed of a fair and neutral point of view. Right.

 

Also, the Soviets DID abuse their power as they advanced. Read up on a little town once known as K

Edited November 1, 2009 by 213374U

[lord of flies]

Natural in the sense that not having food results, naturally, in death? Or natural as the inevitable result of implementing a policy (collectivisation) that's incapable of meeting the needs of the people?

Natural in the sense that there was not enough food to feed the Ukrainian farmers and the urban workers, and the government chose to prioritize the urban workers. There are many causes for the famine; many Ukrainian farms left large areas untended, for example.

Hmm. Since the French Revolution, I don't think there's been a comparable example. What do you mean exactly?

For example, the suppression of Communards, or the Tragica Semana. The scale is not quite the same, but Russia is a very big nation and the Bolsheviks were a very big group. It is important to remember that the people purged were not all killed, but the vast majority were imprisoned after a trial. Of course, I'm talking about the political angle here; the officer purge is totally different.

[RPGmasterBoo]

But yeah, every western historian is deeply biased and will cherry pick his sources, because he is from the west, while you are quite obviously possessed of a fair and neutral point of view. Right.

 

Also, the Soviets DID abuse their power as they advanced. Read up on a little town once known as K

Edited November 1, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Nightshape]

I'm not a fan of Stalin's Russia in regards to its treatment of its own citizens but as far as the war effort is concerned, they did crush germany and didn't abuse the overwhelming power they had at the end of the war against the german population, even after every family lost a member. That takes a lot of forgiveness.

 

The idea that Russia didn't abuse its power is the most rediculious thing I have ever read.

 

Stalin's Russia didn't just defeat Germany on the battlefield, they also excelled in regards to bodycount.

[RPGmasterBoo]

What bodycount? Flinging random accusations doenst really mean anything.

[213374U]

More than them certainly. I don't have an agenda in the matter.

 

They did, but nowhere near to the extent they could have, and nowhere near to what the Germans did when they were in the same situation. That was the point and it has already been said.

Hahaha. Okay, professor. So, now not being "as genocidal as they could have been" (just how genocidal could have they been, pray tell?) is now somewhat of an excuse for war crimes, as we're apparently using Nazi Germany as a basis for comparison.

 

Anyhow, why don't you end this debate in one fell swoop and show me these groundbreaking secret sources that prove beyond any measure of doubt that Soviet war crimes have been grossly and systematically exaggerated by Western sources, as a propaganda tool for use in the Cold War, even though the cold war ended two decades ago?

 

I'm waiting.

 

 

Your sarcasm doesn't work nearly as well when you persist arguing only for the sake of arguing.

And your blatant Soviet war crimes apology doesn't work at all when you insist in portraying yourself as fair, unbiased, and better informed than most academic sources.

 

Something is bugging me: how do you manage to fit your monstrous ego through doors?

[Oner]

^^Probably referring to the gulags which apparently produced more dead than the concentration camps.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Oner

[Purkake]

Does it really matter who was "worse"? Killing millions of civilians should easily max out the evil-o-meter.

[Oner]

So if I blew up the Enclave, am I...? Nooooo!

[213374U]

Natural in the sense that there was not enough food to feed the Ukrainian farmers and the urban workers, and the government chose to prioritize the urban workers. There are many causes for the famine; many Ukrainian farms left large areas untended, for example.

Yes, but it appears to be natural only when communists apply POWERFUL THINKING to agrarian management, as the Great Leap Forward had a similar "natural" famine, and implementation in North Korea failed catastrophically too.

 

I doubt those mass famines were used as deliberate extermination tools, but the idea that they were "natural" as hurricanes or earthquakes is hard to swallow.

 

 

For example, the suppression of Communards, or the Tragica Semana. The scale is not quite the same, but Russia is a very big nation and the Bolsheviks were a very big group. It is important to remember that the people purged were not all killed, but the vast majority were imprisoned after a trial. Of course, I'm talking about the political angle here; the officer purge is totally different.

The Semana Tr Edited November 1, 2009 by 213374U

[Purkake]

Who doesn't?

[Oner]

Activision.

[Purkake]

Yeah they're pretty upfront about screwing everyone over, but I was talking about the people here.

 

A rational discussion would be super boring anyway!

Edited November 1, 2009 by Purkake

[Walsingham]

Natural in the sense that not having food results, naturally, in death? Or natural as the inevitable result of implementing a policy (collectivisation) that's incapable of meeting the needs of the people?

Natural in the sense that there was not enough food to feed the Ukrainian farmers and the urban workers, and the government chose to prioritize the urban workers. There are many causes for the famine; many Ukrainian farms left large areas untended, for example.

Hmm. Since the French Revolution, I don't think there's been a comparable example. What do you mean exactly?

For example, the suppression of Communards, or the Tragica Semana. The scale is not quite the same, but Russia is a very big nation and the Bolsheviks were a very big group. It is important to remember that the people purged were not all killed, but the vast majority were imprisoned after a trial. Of course, I'm talking about the political angle here; the officer purge is totally different.

 

I wait... oh... no hang on... it's LoF. Naturally he'd say the famine was down to an unfortunate series of Trotskyite fascist collaborators and wreckers.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Activision.

This is becoming an increasingly convincing argument.

[Meshugger]

So, terrorists, huh? How boring.

 

And good luck with your arbitrary evil-o-meter, fellas. Trying to prove someone elses or ones people's suffering is greater than the other is just silly, and nothing will come out of it.

[lord of flies]

Yes, but it appears to be natural only when communists apply POWERFUL THINKING to agrarian management, as the Great Leap Forward had a similar "natural" famine, and implementation in North Korea failed catastrophically too.

 

I doubt those mass famines were used as deliberate extermination tools, but the idea that they were "natural" as hurricanes or earthquakes is hard to swallow.

The causes of the so-called "Holodomor."

 

The Semana Tr

[213374U]

The causes of the so-called "Holodomor."

I'm not really interested in reading Soviet-backed propaganda. I started reading that, and couldn't finish because it reads more like a pamphlet than an academic recounting of facts. The same old, "it's all the bourgeois saboteurs fault!", all over. But in truth, it was gross incompetence and indifference on the part of the central government of the Soviet Union and the officials in charge, who were more interested in revanche than in efficiency and results - a staple of revolutionaries worldwide.

 

I could look up some passages from the Black Book of Communism to counter, but let's not go that way.

 

 

And that is precisely the thing; the party itself was purged. Most of the people who died were also communists, both to the left and right of Stalin. Therefore saying that the Great Purge shows how communism is Just As Bad as fascism is absurd.

Not sure how one thing follows from the other. Stalin's aim was to neutralize any and all possible political adversaries, and to take a proactive stance towards potential political dissent. Looks fairly similar to what the Nazis did, but Mussolini was still (nominally) subject to the authority of the King.