Dragon Age Origins

[Monte Carlo]

^ That's because I don't actually play that many games. I normally have no more than two serious games on the go at the same time, and am in no hurry whatsover to finish them.

[Purkake]

^ That's because I don't actually play that many games. I normally have no more than two serious games on the go at the same time, and am in no hurry whatsover to finish them.

 

I either play a game actively or it will sit forever on my hard drive without ever getting finished, like Nexus: The Jupiter Project at the moment...

[Monte Carlo]

I think of it a bit like chess-by-mail, I can happily make a move, save, leave it for a week then come back to it.

 

This is why I love games and think they are extremely good value for money.

[Purkake]

I only do that for multiplayer games. Single player ones I play and throw aside.

[Oner]

I'm not sure that you can say that without experiencing the story. Could they have done it? Sure, but from what I can tell it would have only really made sense if they'd make someone else be the "protagonist" and let the player play more of a backup role. That might sound cool at first, but at the same time, I don't know if people (myself included) would really enjoy a game where they aren't necessarily the focus of the story.

Actually, I play every game that has a predefined protagonist with this mindset, that I'm the supporter, the grey eminence, the twelfth man so to speak. And I enjoy it. Not being the hero, but hir lancer, rooting for hir success, (and enjoying the badassitude of my position) can be quite fulfilling. Take Max Payne for instance, you're not supposed to be the guy, you're supposed to symphatize with him, feel his pain.

 

As for the non-standard game over cut scene I mentioned, all I'm saying is, showing some sort of consecvence (grammar skillz not working tonight :/) is better than nothing.

[Volourn]

"I'm not sure that you can say that without experiencing the story."

 

I absolutely can. It only takes some imagination, effort, and willing to add extra stuff. It's very much possible. They simply chose not to.

[Slowtrain]

If the story that Bioware has written requires the pc be a gray whatever how can the pc not be a gray whatever?

[Maria Caliban]

If the story that Bioware has written requires the pc be a gray whatever how can the pc not be a gray whatever?

 

It's true that the protagonist doesn't have to be a Grey Warden. Heck, in the early stages, they didn't know what continent they'd use or what the main conflict would be. There's also Bad Stuff happening in the lands the qunari emigrated from, for instance, where there are no Grey Wardens.

 

Saying there

[Slowtrain]

If the story that Bioware has written requires the pc be a gray whatever how can the pc not be a gray whatever?

 

 

Saying there

[Maria Caliban]

I was just questioning Volourn's logic. Probably a pointless endeavor, I'm sure.

 

I was agreeing with you.

[alanschu]

I'm not sure that you can say that without experiencing the story. Could they have done it? Sure, but from what I can tell it would have only really made sense if they'd make someone else be the "protagonist" and let the player play more of a backup role. That might sound cool at first, but at the same time, I don't know if people (myself included) would really enjoy a game where they aren't necessarily the focus of the story.

Actually, I play every game that has a predefined protagonist with this mindset, that I'm the supporter, the grey eminence, the twelfth man so to speak. And I enjoy it. Not being the hero, but hir lancer, rooting for hir success, (and enjoying the badassitude of my position) can be quite fulfilling. Take Max Payne for instance, you're not supposed to be the guy, you're supposed to symphatize with him, feel his pain.

 

As for the non-standard game over cut scene I mentioned, all I'm saying is, showing some sort of consecvence (grammar skillz not working tonight :/) is better than nothing.

 

 

That doesn't change the fact that you ARE PLAYING MAX PAYNE! It's not like you're playing Mona Sax or some other character. If that's your example then I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

 

It seems to me you enjoy being the one that controls the protagonist. Would you enjoy being the "Lancer" of a farmhand in Redcliffe that is lucky to survive the fight, while the Grey Warden hero comes in with his party, does all the quests in the area, and then moves on in the story while you remain in Redcliffe, to be the "Lancer" of your farmhand?

 

Would you enjoy being some no name cop in Max Payne, watching Max Payne do all these ridiculously cool acrobatic moves, while the game slows down for HIM, while your copy is subject to the same penalties as the hostiles during bullet time? Max Payne is called Max Payne because the main character, that you play in the game, is Max Payne.

[alanschu]

"I'm not sure that you can say that without experiencing the story."

 

I absolutely can. It only takes some imagination, effort, and willing to add extra stuff. It's very much possible. They simply chose not to.

 

 

Then you'd be wrong.

Edited September 21, 2009 by alanschu

[Maria Caliban]

Would you enjoy being the "Lancer" of a farmhand in Redcliffe that is lucky to survive the fight, while the Grey Warden hero comes in with his party, does all the quests in the area, and then moves on in the story while you remain in Redcliffe, to be the "Lancer" of your farmhand?

 

That's not a Lancer. A lancer is someone who plays an important role in the story, but isn

[Purkake]

TVtropes to the rescue!

 

Lancer

Innocent Bystander

Heroic Bystander

Badass Bystander

 

Hallowed be the Tropes.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Purkake

[alanschu]

Would you enjoy being the "Lancer" of a farmhand in Redcliffe that is lucky to survive the fight, while the Grey Warden hero comes in with his party, does all the quests in the area, and then moves on in the story while you remain in Redcliffe, to be the "Lancer" of your farmhand?

 

That's not a Lancer. A lancer is someone who plays an important role in the story, but isn’t the Hero. You're describing the experience of being a random bystander.

 

 

I put Lancer in quotation marks because he's talking about being an imaginary person in Max Payne. Because the example Oner used was Max Payne. I'm unaware of playing any sort of Lancer character in Max Payne.

 

Since we're picking hairs, would someone be content to play a Lancer to Alistair? To Duncan? Where the PC isn't the one actually making any decisions, but rather the side characters?

 

How many people like playing the roles where they aren't actually the ones making the decisions? Where they aren't the ones that are the focus of the story? Would it be fun to be the Lancer to the Vault Dweller, where you don't actually decide where to go outside of perhaps making suggestions for the hero to decide whether or not he would agree to do so? Just a side character beside the Bhaalspawn?

 

 

What games truly have you playing the Lancer, because I emphatically disagree that Max Payne is in any way an appropriate example.

Edited September 21, 2009 by alanschu

[Maria Caliban]

Yeah, I

Edited September 21, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[alanschu]

I feel I should add that I am talking about RPGs.

 

 

It is more than possible to create cool stories where you are the side characters. Those games, IMO, tend to be relatively linear and static though, from what I can tell. Even then, warping it in a way that the story of the game isn't actually about the character the player is playing is quite difficult.

[Maria Caliban]

What games truly have you playing the Lancer, because I emphatically disagree that Max Payne is in any way an appropriate example.

 

The only game where I can think of where you don't play the hero is Dreamfall. You have to save April Ryan because April is the hero. I wouldn't consider Zoe a Lancer through.

[Purkake]

Well in Diablo 2, the Wanderer is really the main character. It's pretty hard to think of examples, though.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The problem is not that you're forced to be a Gray Warden, that's par for the course for Bio. The problem is they seem to be assigning a motivation to the PC, perhaps it only appears that way though.

[alanschu]

What games truly have you playing the Lancer, because I emphatically disagree that Max Payne is in any way an appropriate example.

 

The only game where I can think of where you don't play the hero is Dreamfall. You have to save April Ryan because April is the hero. I wouldn't consider Zoe a Lancer through.

 

 

Still, does Dreamfall focus on you the character, or April? I haven't played it.

 

Some could argue that Revan is the "hero" of the KOTOR series, but the Exile is still very much the focus point of KOTOR 2 (not really a great example but hopefully you can see what I mean).

 

 

 

Well in Diablo 2, the Wanderer is really the main character. It's pretty hard to think of examples, though.

 

I disagree, though only partially. Diablo II may focus a lot on the travels of the wanderer from the first game, but the fact is, I'm still the one smacking down Mephisto, Diablo, and Baal. Seems pretty heroic to me. I have a feeling the game would be less popular if we just followed around some AI NPC that actually killed all the bosses and collected the phat lewt

 

 

 

The problem is they seem to be assigning a motivation to the PC, perhaps it only appears that way though.

 

Well, it's assigning motivation in the fact that if you do nothing, at worst you die, at best you run away somewhere else and Ferelden is loss. Not really an interesting game if that was the case.

 

BioWare did the same with Baldur's Gate as well as Knights of the Old Republic, and definitely Mass Effect.

Edited September 21, 2009 by alanschu

[Atom523]

Well in the game Tales of Symphonia for the gamecube your character is the one protecting the "Chosen One" who is destined to save the world. It is her that is necessary to save the world your guy is just one of her friend who wants to protect her.

[alanschu]

I suppose.

 

 

Just to make sure I'm understanding this better, but people wouldn't have an issue with becoming a Grey Warden in Dragon Age, if it meant that they just chummed out with another Grey Warden?

 

 

Having said that, while I've never played Tales of Symphonia, I'm guessing you go where your character (Lloyd) decides to go. So really, who's following you? Is she just following you around because she has some uber power to save the world, but apparently relies on others in order to protect her? Or is it more like FF6, where everyone could be considered a protagonist?

Edited September 21, 2009 by alanschu

[Atom523]

I suppose.

 

 

Just to make sure I'm understanding this better, but people wouldn't have an issue with becoming a Grey Warden in Dragon Age, if it meant that they just chummed out with another Grey Warden?

 

 

Having said that, while I've never played Tales of Symphonia, I'm guessing you go where your character (Lloyd) decides to go. So really, who's following you? Is she just following you around because she has some uber power to save the world, but apparently relies on others in order to protect her? Or is it more like FF6, where everyone could be considered a protagonist?

 

Well she has to go to specific areas to save the world so you are escorting her to each place. You are the "leader" of the group but you are only going to the areas that you are told that she has to go to in order to achieve her destiny. She has something inside of her that if she goes to specific areas she can gain powers necessary to save the world. I won't say what has to be done since that would spoil the plot line.

 

I actually really liked how they did it in FF6 where there was no definitive single protagonist.

 

I have no problem with being a gray warden, as you can see from my posts i started on JRPGs so following a script where i don't have control is fine with me, so the storyline telling me that i have to follow a specific path is fine as long as the gameplay and storyline are interesting. Choices with meaning are great but not necessary for a game to be fun to me.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Atom523

[HoonDing]

What games truly have you playing the Lancer, because I emphatically disagree that Max Payne is in any way an appropriate example.

 

The only game where I can think of where you don't play the hero is Dreamfall. You have to save April Ryan because April is the hero. I wouldn't consider Zoe a Lancer through.

It's never really explained why April needs to be saved. It seems more of an excuse to cram April in the game and make it connected to TLJ than anything else... I'd say that every playable character in Dreamfall is a "Lancer". They all just bob along without knowing what's going on.

 

I'd pick Syberia as an example: you have to find Hans Voralberg because he is the central figure the story revolves around. Or even the Myst games, where the player character is & stays nothing more than a puzzle solving errand boy/girl for Atrus & Catherine.