Dragon Age Origins

[Maria Caliban]

A vaguely related fact: brothel workers in Ferelden have a guild. I assume this is a dwarven influence.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[Purkake]

Ok, Let me pull a David Gaider on you.

 

If you don't like any of the content that is in the game, then don't buy the game.

 

It really is as easy as this. Period.

 

And that said, let me say this:

 

You don't have to go to the brothel, if you don't like the idea of going to the brothel. It is an option you can choose, if you so incline.

 

David Gaider have said, in a post on the Bioware forums, that we shouldn't believe all we read or hear - not even from the ESRB website about the game. It may well be for comical relief this would be happening.

 

Personally, I'm happy that Bioware has the guts to include a brothel in DA: Origins, this is a mature game, meant to be bought by mature people. And brothels have existed in nearly all human history; Ferelden is based loosely on medival Europe, hence I think the decision to include a brothel in it. People, most of them, anyway, on the Bioware DA: Forums agrees with the decision to put a brothel in the game.

 

And we really don't know the brothel will fit into the story in DA: origins before we have played the game. And even in the first Baldur's Gate, we had to go to a brothel (for a quest).

 

Woah, dude, I don't have anything against the brothel. I made the post, because the dudes at Idle Thumbs were making fun of it and it seemed like something funny to revive the thread.

 

I'm all for **** and brothels in my games, don't get your panties in a bunch.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Purkake

[aries101]

Ok, it may be that I was too hastely here I apogize, humbly, especially to Purkake.

 

However, David Gaider usually do not tell 'to not buy the game' to people who have supported the game for a long time. He usually does it to people who complain about sexual content in the game etc. And yes, he did say it it to me one time, when I complanined about the main quest being going around and rallying support to defeat the Blight.

 

I have no problems with brothels etc. in games at all. And yes, I agree, that brothels and sexual situations do not make games more mature. However, sex, both in romance and in brothels, are a part, or at least, part of the mature experience. Bioware has never made game that has been fixated on sexual experience; neither would this, even with the brothel, I find.

 

As for me getting the game, I'm still waiting for reviews and the word from different forums etc...

[Purkake]

Ok, it may be that I was too hastely here I apogize, humbly, especially to Purkake.

 

However, David Gaider usually do not tell 'to not buy the game' to people who have supported the game for a long time. He usually does it to people who complain about sexual content in the game etc. And yes, he did say it it to me one time, when I complanined about the main quest being going around and rallying support to defeat the Blight.

 

I have no problems with brothels etc. in games at all. And yes, I agree, that brothels and sexual situations do not make games more mature. However, sex, both in romance and in brothels, are a part, or at least, part of the mature experience. Bioware has never made game that has been fixated on sexual experience; neither would this, even with the brothel, I find.

 

As for me getting the game, I'm still waiting for reviews and the word from different forums etc...

 

No prob, your post just came out of nowhere

 

Part of the problem with sexual content in games is the developers and publishers themselves. Everyone makes a big deal about it and the publishers make a huge selling point out of it and in the end it becomes a gimmick. The developers should take it more seriously and just let it become a normal part of the story, like in movies.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Purkake

[Slowtrain]

When a developer response to a complaint/concern/issue from a fan is: "If you don't like it, don't buy the game", I just roll my eyes.

 

It's just about the most pathetic and weak response possible, and it is all too common, I'm afraid.

[Magnum Opus]

Given the incredible volumes of crap they wade through each and every time they browse the forums, though...

 

The amount of negativity surrounding any as-yet-unreleased project is staggering, IMO. Rarely do you ever hear people praising previous efforts or design decisions: the people who like what's being done have no reason to believe it'll change. Developers liked it enough to do it once, poster in question liked it too... what's the problem, right? No problem at all. Negativity, though... that comes out all over the place, and it's hard to hear that sort of **** about something that you've put the last 5 years of your working life into, coming from people who really have no bloody clue one way or the other.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised DG simply hasn't told someone to flat out shove it where the sun don't shine by now. Am pretty sure I would have. Such "then don't buy it" comments might be all too common, but on the other hand... part of me feels they're not nearly common enough. Might be a weak response, but IMO it's also fully understandable. Instead of rolling my eyes, I tend to think "Man, you should've closed that browser window a hour ago and just ignored fan-buddy until whenever".

Edited August 2, 2009 by Magnum Opus

[Purkake]

Given the incredible volumes of crap they wade through each and every time they browse the forums, though...

 

The amount of negativity surrounding any as-yet-unreleased project is staggering, IMO. Rarely do you ever hear people praising previous efforts or design decisions: the people who like what's being done have no reason to believe it'll change. Developers liked it enough to do it once, poster in question liked it too... what's the problem, right? No problem at all. Negativity, though... that comes out all over the place, and it's hard to hear that sort of **** about something that you've put the last 5 years of your working life into, coming from people who really have no bloody clue one way or the other.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised DG simply hasn't told someone to flat out shove it where the sun don't shine by now. Am pretty sure I would have. Such "then don't buy it" comments might be all too common, but on the other hand... part of me feels they're not nearly common enough. Might be a weak response, but IMO it's also fully understandable. Instead of rolling my eyes, I tend to think "Man, you should've closed that browser window a hour ago and just ignored fan-buddy until whenever".

 

To be fair, if you are reading the forum, you should know what to expect. Everyone who's been on the internet for a while now should know that most people are jerks and love to complain about everything. Any developer who gets personally offended by some random people on the internet needs to grow a thicker skin or stop reading that stuff.

 

Also, everyone LOVES getting a reaction out of someone, especially an angry one. He's not really helping his case by responding.

[Slowtrain]

Might be a weak response, but IMO it's also fully understandable.

 

I don't disagree that devs have to put up with a lot of garbage on their boards, consequently if devs choose not to make responses it doesn't bother me. If I were in their position, I would probably do the same.

 

But, if they do CHOOSE to respond, the response should have more value than "don't like it, don't buy it." which sounds like something a whining three year old would say.

[Magnum Opus]

Might be a weak response, but IMO it's also fully understandable.

 

But, if they do CHOOSE to respond, the response should have more value than "don't like it, don't buy it." which sounds like something a whining three year old would say.

Hey, if the thread warrants the response of a three-year-old, then give it the response of a three-year-old, IMO. 'least then they might understand.

 

It's not as if the devs never try to explain what they're doing first, after all. I have yet to see such a response from a developer come before they've made a serious effort to explain, but there does come a point when it's obvious that further explanation just isn't going to do anything. At that point you can either beat the horse even deader by fruitless and time consuming explanations which have probably already been given, you can ignore the matter entirely (which won't even let the whiner know that their issue is a dead one; developer might have just gone on vacation, or something), or you can cut through the crap with a blunt response that leaves no room for error and that lets people involved know you're done.

 

Far as I'm concerned, that last option is one that needs to be explored a little more frequently. Diplomacy's all well and good, I suppose, but it has its limits.... particularly in the face of the type of fanaticism that seems to be going around on internet message boards. Sometimes, anger/exasperation really is the correct response, I think. Better to let people know where you stand than waste your time politely explaining everything to people who either aren't willing to listen or are incapable of understanding. And if they get their jollies from pushing buttons and ticking people off... *shrugs* That's their character defect. Let them enjoy it, as pathetic as it is, on those rare occasions when they get a rise out of someone.

 

Not saying it's something they should make a habit of doing, but the odd such comment thrown out here and there isn't going to harm my perception of anyone.

[Purkake]

Hey, if the thread warrants the response of a three-year-old, then give it the response of a three-year-old, IMO. 'least then they might understand.

 

It's not as if the devs never try to explain what they're doing first, after all. I have yet to see such a response from a developer come before they've made a serious effort to explain, but there does come a point when it's obvious that further explanation just isn't going to do anything. At that point you can either beat the horse even deader by fruitless and time consuming explanations which have probably already been given, you can ignore the matter entirely (which won't even let the whiner know that their issue is a dead one; developer might have just gone on vacation, or something), or you can cut through the crap with a blunt response that leaves no room for error and that lets people involved know you're done.

 

Far as I'm concerned, that last option is one that needs to be explored a little more frequently. Diplomacy's all well and good, I suppose, but it has its limits.... particularly in the face of the type of fanaticism that seems to be going around on internet message boards. Sometimes, anger/exasperation really is the correct response, I think. Better to let people know where you stand than waste your time politely explaining everything to people who either aren't willing to listen or are incapable of understanding. And if they get their jollies from pushing buttons and ticking people off... *shrugs* That's their character defect. Let them enjoy it, as pathetic as it is, on those rare occasions when they get a rise out of someone.

 

If you do anything public, you are open to being scrutinized, often wrongly and by crazy misguided jerks. Telling off those damn anonymous internet jerks is only going to make you look like an angry jerk as well. It only makes him look like someone who will lose his cool at the slightest provocation, normal people learn to deal with it.

 

EDIT: I refer you to the Denis Dyack(designer of Too Human) incident on the NeoGAF forums where he made a total joke of himself.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Purkake

[Aristes]

Interesting article. I praise his guts, but I still think he's completely insane.

[alanschu]

When a developer response to a complaint/concern/issue from a fan is: "If you don't like it, don't buy the game", I just roll my eyes.

 

It's just about the most pathetic and weak response possible, and it is all too common, I'm afraid.

 

 

Given many of the complaints fans have, I don't blame them. Seriously, people make design decisions all the time that aren't going to mesh with what I am looking for in a game. If there's not much else a game offers to me, I'm not going to buy it.

 

 

One game I am really looking forward to is Hearts of Iron 3. It's an active design decision to have technologies be globally available to all countries, but practical and theoretical knowledge will differ based on what you build and research. Unit names exist almost exclusively for flavour, so on paper in the game, a T-34 Panzer division will be roughly equivalent to a PzKpfw IV division. So you get people screaming bloody murder because historically, the T-34 was a superior tank to the Panzer IV, and getting all uppity about it. Other people get all pissed off because Japan's Zeros should have much longer range as they are the flavour name for Japan's 1939 Fighter.

 

It gets ridiculous and people end up wasting a ****load of time and space on the forums babbling on about this nonsense, when it's been clearly stated that those decisions are not going to change. They've been this way for quite some time, and after getting complaints about this (despite the majority of people enjoying it for what it is) over and over, often by the same people, what more is there to be said than "If you don't like our decisions, then don't buy the game?"

[Purkake]

It gets ridiculous and people end up wasting a ****load of time and space on the forums babbling on about this nonsense, when it's been clearly stated that those decisions are not going to change. They've been this way for quite some time, and after getting complaints about this (despite the majority of people enjoying it for what it is) over and over, often by the same people, what more is there to be said than "If you don't like our decisions, then don't buy the game?"

 

I don't disagree with your point, but the only thing worse than people complaining about stuff is an actual developer stooping down to the troll's level. That's what the community managers and moderators are for, the developer is only going to end up looking stupid.

 

It can't be that difficult to understand that you can't please everyone.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Purkake

[alanschu]

I disagree that it's the developer stooping to the troll's level.

 

In a discussion with the developer about the topic at hand, the developer is effectively stating that this decision isn't going to change, so the discussion is over.

[Niten_Ryu]

I think developers can troll as much as the any other in the internet, but they certainly have to be more careful on their own boards. Especially MMOG developers attack each other from time to time, creating interesting flamefests. It's much more calm in CRPG area, probably because it's niche genre these days with little to no innovation.

 

I disagree with Mr Gaider on just about everything (he's looking things from writers perspective and I look on game mehcanics POV) but it's fun to read his (often dry) comments on various issues.

[Purkake]

I disagree that it's the developer stooping to the troll's level.

 

In a discussion with the developer about the topic at hand, the developer is effectively stating that this decision isn't going to change, so the discussion is over.

 

Has anything ever changed in a games development because of people complaining about it on the boards? He should just accept that some people have entitlement issues.

 

By snapping back(not this incident but in general) at the trolls he is speaking for the whole company and possibly creating a PR nightmare.

[Hell Kitty]

When a developer response to a complaint/concern/issue from a fan is: "If you don't like it, don't buy the game", I just roll my eyes.

 

It's just about the most pathetic and weak response possible, and it is all too common, I'm afraid.

 

I think it depends on the complaint/concern/issue, and especially how that complaint/concern/issue is worded. If, for example, you were making a turn-based game and the complaint was "OMG I hate turn-based I'll never play a turn-based game they all suck change it" then really what more is there to say than "This probably isn't the game for you"?

 

I think developers can troll as much as the any other in the internet, but they certainly have to be more careful on their own boards.

 

I was recently looking at the forums of a few mod projects, and was surprised by just how bitchy the mod developers can be when faced with any level of criticism. It made me wonder if professional developers want to respond to forum posts in the same way.

 

As for sex in games, I'm with Aristes in having a problem with folks thinking it equates to mature content. It's like a child swearing because they think it makes them sound grown-up, when all it really does is highlight their immaturity.

[Magnum Opus]

If you do anything public, you are open to being scrutinized, often wrongly and by crazy misguided jerks. Telling off those damn anonymous internet jerks is only going to make you look like an angry jerk as well. It only makes him look like someone who will lose his cool at the slightest provocation, normal people learn to deal with it.

 

EDIT: I refer you to the Denis Dyack(designer of Too Human) incident on the NeoGAF forums where he made a total joke of himself.

On one hand, we've got an otherwise patient developer telling one poster to look elsewhere, and on the other we've got a developer aggressively issuing a broad-based challenge to anyone who disagrees with his POV, deliberately fanning the flamers, as it were.

 

Am hoping you're not expecting me to draw an equal-incidents/equal-reaction type of parallel between the two, because I'm just not seeing it. Circumstance and degree play a pretty vital role when it comes to determining just how inappropriate those developers' comments were, IMO.

 

(case in point, I'd agree that Dyack does come across as a wee bit of a whackjob, whereas Gaider hasn't)

[Wrath of Dagon]

Adding a brothel is perfectly OK in a game - hey they might even be really mature and add some content about the inhumanity of much of the 'World's oldest Profession'. Alternatively, you could make an awkward, gauche gag about it. I'm hardly a killjoy (I thought the gnome gigolo from NWN1 OC was quite amusing). But the hype is telling us that this is a new type of fantasy, maybe even one where brothels aren't full of tarts-with-a-heart.

 

Interesting brothel moment in popular culture of late: Titus Pullo and Vorenius rescuing the girl from the mining camp brothel in Rome. The girls are slaves, the brothel is hellish and the two ex-legionnaires slaughter the pimps and punters alike, as you probably would in ancient Rome.

 

That would be interesting and dare I say it mature.

Exactly, real brothels are all about sexual exploitation, abuse and often outright slavery. The fact that Bioware make light of the subject just shows how juvenile they are.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Exactly, real brothels are all about sexual exploitation, abuse and often outright slavery.

 

Sometimes, and sometimes they are not.

 

 

The fact that Bioware make light of the subject just shows how juvenile they are.

 

Not really - there have been brothels that were not so bad and some brothels that were extremly bad.

[Hurlshort]

Adding a brothel is perfectly OK in a game - hey they might even be really mature and add some content about the inhumanity of much of the 'World's oldest Profession'. Alternatively, you could make an awkward, gauche gag about it. I'm hardly a killjoy (I thought the gnome gigolo from NWN1 OC was quite amusing). But the hype is telling us that this is a new type of fantasy, maybe even one where brothels aren't full of tarts-with-a-heart.

 

Interesting brothel moment in popular culture of late: Titus Pullo and Vorenius rescuing the girl from the mining camp brothel in Rome. The girls are slaves, the brothel is hellish and the two ex-legionnaires slaughter the pimps and punters alike, as you probably would in ancient Rome.

 

That would be interesting and dare I say it mature.

Exactly, real brothels are all about sexual exploitation, abuse and often outright slavery. The fact that Bioware make light of the subject just shows how juvenile they are.

 

That is a very good point. Wow. I never though about it that way. I think WoD is getting better at this stuff.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I think WoD is getting better at this stuff.

 

He's still not compleatly correct though.

[Gorth]

I praise his guts

Spoken like a true Ogre Bull

 

Not really - there have been brothels that were not so bad and some brothels that were extremly bad.

I'll defer to your superior experience and expertise on the subject

 

I find a brothel no worse and no better than have, say an arena? People whacking or maiming each other to please the crowds...

 

Gorths rule of thumb, if it feels natural that it is there for the story/setting, it's all good. If it feels artificial because somebody decided it had to be there, even if stuck to the rest of the game with blu-tac, not so good.

[Purkake]

On one hand, we've got an otherwise patient developer telling one poster to look elsewhere, and on the other we've got a developer aggressively issuing a broad-based challenge to anyone who disagrees with his POV, deliberately fanning the flamers, as it were.

 

Am hoping you're not expecting me to draw an equal-incidents/equal-reaction type of parallel between the two, because I'm just not seeing it. Circumstance and degree play a pretty vital role when it comes to determining just how inappropriate those developers' comments were, IMO.

 

(case in point, I'd agree that Dyack does come across as a wee bit of a whackjob, whereas Gaider hasn't)

 

The Dyack debacle is like the worst case scenario, I brought it up because it's the only other case I can think of. I agree that they aren't equal.

[aries101]

I still remember DG's comment to me when I pointed that people might complain that this game was not an FPS game, as the marketing had told them.

It was something like 'look, people will complain no matter what.'

 

I didn't believe him; however, seeing the comment on the Bioware forums, yes, people will complain, and sometimes lament, no matter what.

Even over things that's not going to change. No, you can't play after the ending (the main quest's), no, there is no multi-player in DA: Origins.

No, there is not X, Y or Z feature in the game, but there is P,L, and V feature in the game. No, there is no Human Commoner Origin story.

And so on and so on. It must be very frustating sometimes to be a game developer, even though Bioware seems to listen a lot to the community.

 

It does not mean, however, that the Biowarians get their way; it is still Bioware that decides if a feature suggested by the community should be

in a game or not.

 

On the matter of the Brothel, we don't know this will figure into the story just yet.

Edited August 3, 2009 by aries101