Dragon Age Origins

[Purkake]

While other aspects of the game might have been mature, the Witcher's handling of human sexuality wasn't. It was quite possible to end up having sex with a woman without even intending to do so.

 

Which really doesn't invalidate the game in any way. Third time I've said it.

It was meant to be good intentioned fun, a bit of comic relief and that was what it was. Just like in Dogma:

 

Metatron: ...Take sex, for example. There's nothing funnier than the ridiculous faces you people make mid-coitus

Bethany: Sex is a joke in Heaven?

Metatron: The way I understand it, it's mostly a joke down here, too.

 

Arguing about RPGs here is not a very good idea, almost everyone has a different opinion on things. No one(?) is saying that The Witcher is a bad game. It's just not the pinnacle of maturity in video games. The sex stuff felt more like a "collect all 30 cards minigame" than something with any depth or meaning. Just like adding large amounts of swearing into Gears of War made it silly, not mature.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

Arguing about RPGs here is not a very good idea, almost everyone has a different opinion on things. No one(?) is saying that The Witcher is a bad game. It's just not the pinnacle of maturity in video games. The sex stuff felt more like a "collect all 30 cards minigame" than something with any depth or meaning. Just like adding large amounts of swearing into Gears of War made it silly, not mature.

 

Right.

The focus by people here on the optional sex stuff still boggles my mind, but on a final note here's an article on the issue (partly).

 

http://www.edge-online.com/features/1m-sol...cret-pc-success

[alanschu]

Same with optional brothels.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Same with optional brothels.

 

Its the deep and hidden desire to have virtual sex while being all that you in fact - are not, with "women" you could never have, and to hide this from everyone else. Understandable, and I get if people feel a little jealous of Geralt but you know, some pixels have all the luck.

[Maria Caliban]

While other aspects of the game might have been mature, the Witcher's handling of human sexuality wasn't. It was quite possible to end up having sex with a woman without even intending to do so.

 

Which really doesn't invalidate the game in any way. Third time I've said it.

 

I assume you're repeating yourself as a way to make up for responding to something I didn't say. Or maybe you just enjoy saying the same thing over and over again?

[Purkake]

Same with optional brothels.

 

Its the deep and hidden desire to have virtual sex while being all that you in fact - are not, with "women" you could never have, and to hide this from everyone else. Understandable, and I get if people feel a little jealous of Geralt but you know, some pixels have all the luck.

 

Condescending much?

 

I didn't bring up the sex stuff, but it does undermine your point of Witcher being so very mature. If you state something so adamantly(especially here and about RPGs), expect people to disagree.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Same with optional brothels.

 

Its the deep and hidden desire to have virtual sex while being all that you in fact - are not, with "women" you could never have, and to hide this from everyone else. Understandable, and I get if people feel a little jealous of Geralt but you know, some pixels have all the luck.

 

Condescending much?

 

I didn't bring up the sex stuff, but it does undermine your point of Witcher being so very mature. If you state something so adamantly(especially here and about RPGs), expect people to disagree.

 

Its been stated what the mature aspects of the game were. I feel that the ability to joke at your own expense is also a sign of maturity and that the sex was even a parody of sorts. I mean village girls, noble women, dryads, even a goddess- come on, they're all fantasy cliche's. To look at it from any other angle than a self parody is pointless. I couldnt help but laugh at Geralts antics in those moments.

 

To take the sex seriously and make an issue out of it, is missing the point why it was included in the first place.

On the other hand a game like KOTOR takes itself so seriously for the most part, and all it is is a basic tale of good vs evil. If that's not needless drama I don't know what is.

 

I don't mind disagreements.

Edited August 5, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Its been stated what the mature aspects of the game were. I feel that the ability to joke at your own expense is also a sign of maturity and that the sex was even a parody of sorts. I mean village girls, noble women, dryads, even a goddess- come on, they're all fantasy cliche's. To look at it from any other angle than a self parody is pointless. I couldnt help but laugh at Geralts antics in those moments.

 

On the other hand a game like KOTOR takes itself so seriously for the most part, and all it is is a basic tale of good vs evil. If that's not needless drama I don't know what is.

 

I don't mind disagreements.

 

I'm not seeing the parody aspect, but whatever.

 

I'm not a big fan of good vs evil either, that's why I like more personal stories like Torment and Mask of The Betrayer.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I assume you're repeating yourself as a way to make up for responding to something I didn't say. Or maybe you just enjoy saying the same thing over and over again?

 

Yep, old age is definitely getting to me Maria.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I'm not a big fan of good vs evil either, that's why I like more personal stories like Torment and Mask of The Betrayer.

 

So do I, but they can be counted on one hand - if you chop off two fingers.

 

Which is a way of getting the discussion back on topic:

 

does the fact that the PC is not so integrally woven into the plot as he/she was in Baldur's Gate/Torment/Mask worry you?

 

For a game that was supposed to be a spiritual sequel, this approach would seem insane to drop, as it was a large part of BGII.

Edited August 5, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Aristes]

lol at the quote in your sig, Boo.

 

I think you've hit gonzo on the nutso scale, though. I mean, while it might be bad for Gaider to do so, I can say it guilt free. "If it doesn't sound lik your kind of game, don't buy it." *shrug* I mean, more logically, you should at least wait for release and then see if any reliable sources give you good information so you can make an informed decision.

 

I will tell you that citing the Witcher as a mature game biased me against your assessment right away. The Witcher was a fun game, but it certainly had it's immature moments. I made the mistake of laughing and calling my wife over to see the sex cards at which point she castigated the game and gave me twenty solid minutes of cold shoulder just because I thought it was more funny than harmful. See, that's the sort of mature relationship we don't see in games. Where is Geralts wife complaining because he hasn't changed the lightbulb yet? I mean, do we really want 100% realism in games?

 

It's like swearing. I associate swearing either with goofing around with friends and talking smack, which is decidedly not 'mature.' ...Or I associate it with some truly ugly things. Hookers? I've actually known quite a few prostitutes. Probably over a score. I've gone to restaurants where the food was served by prostitutes. Some were really nice gals. However, I don't think any of them would describe their life in fairytale terms. At best, most of them thought of it as a necessary evil. I don't want to speculate on the worst, especially for those who were recently brought into the sex trade. It was not a pleasant scene. This is particularly true for those who were basically forced into the trade by family.

 

I know folks have hit the 'mature' sexual relationships in the Witcher pretty hard already and I don't want to pile on, but the meaningful definition of 'mature' revolves around the concept of well considered thoughts or opinions. I'm usually loathe to use dictionary definitions, but this one will work. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mature

 

I think realism in computer games is great, but I don't think games must sacrifice all to realism.

[Purkake]

I'm not a big fan of good vs evil either, that's why I like more personal stories like Torment and Mask of The Betrayer.

 

So do I, but they can be counted on one hand - if you chop off two fingers.

 

Which is a way of getting the discussion back on topic:

 

does the fact that the PC is not so integrally woven into the plot as he/she was in Baldur's Gate/Torment/Mask worry you?

 

For a game that was supposed to be a spiritual sequel, this approach would seem insane to drop, as it was a large part of BGII.

 

I know very little about DA's plot. All I know is that it's kind of like Mass Effect(Gray Warden=Specter) and that there is a super evil horde of evil demons coming from somewhere.

 

That doesn't sound very promising, but I'm not really expecting much of DA, so it's not really a problem.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Purkake

[Slowtrain]

but I'm not really expecting much of DA, so it's not really a problem.

 

 

Managing expectations is the key to enjoying next gen games.

[Volourn]

"Which really doesn't invalidate the game in any way. Third time I've said it.

It was meant to be good intentioned fun, a bit of comic relief and that was what it was. Just like in Dogma:

 

Metatron: ...Take sex, for example. There's nothing funnier than the ridiculous faces you people make mid-coitus

Bethany: Sex is a joke in Heaven?

Metatron: The way I understand it, it's mostly a joke down here, too"

 

You insult Doggma. TW is a piece of crap, and was NOT funny. Dogma was hilarious.

 

Bottom line is TW is not a mature game. Not even close. But, then again, neither is Dogma. And, that's okay. 'Cause it wans't meant to be.

 

TW was, and it failed. With its poor characters, poor writing, poor combat, poor C&C, poor b00bie useage (which was actually my favorite part of the game, lol), etc., etc. There is very little quality in TW.

 

I cna't believe I was looking forward to what ende dup being one of the worst RPGs ever. Thankfully, I still have the FOs to fall back on. Now, those are good games (not counting FO3, of course).

 

 

P.S. DA > BG series.

 

No contest.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Volourn

[Purkake]

Managing expectations is the key to enjoying next gen games.

 

Truer words were never spoken.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Purkake

[Maria Caliban]

does the fact that the PC is not so integrally woven into the plot as he/she was in Baldur's Gate/Torment/Mask worry you?

 

For a game that was supposed to be a spiritual sequel, this approach would seem insane to drop, as it was a large part of BGII.

 

BG was about the PC. BGII was about Irinicus. The only reason the PC and Imoen were involved was because they had useful bits.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, Kotor, ... had their shortcomings,

Blasphemy!

[alanschu]

Same with optional brothels.

 

Its the deep and hidden desire to have virtual sex while being all that you in fact - are not, with "women" you could never have, and to hide this from everyone else. Understandable, and I get if people feel a little jealous of Geralt but you know, some pixels have all the luck.

 

 

No. It's hypocrisy to have criticisms and reservations about BioWare's completely optional brothels provided for comic relief, while you rationalize the absurdity of a nude card trading game and sexual encounters of The Witcher as being optional comic relief and hence above the criticism.

 

 

Though I think you were trying to be sassy, but I'm not really sure to be honest. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with virtual sex and desire to be Geralt. Unless maybe you're projecting.

[Bos_hybrid]

The Witcher had its flaws, and lack of polish but the underlying experience was fresh and original. I've personally participated in discussions and the general consensus amongst a very large crowd of veteran RPG gamers was that it was a superior product to almost everything that came out since BGII.

 

Yes because if a hundred people, get together and agree on something, it must be right.

 

You're just repeating your previous argument of judging a game by its one optional - almost comic relief segment. Its biased, and therefore invalid. In fact strong personal dislike is all I get from your post, justified by repetition of one sentence, unfounded and unsupported by proof of any sort.

 

I find the bold part particuarly funny, because everyone is biased, be it you, Volourn, me, or the high paid game journalist over at some such magazine. Everyone has there own set of likes and dislikes which they are going to apply to the game they are playing.

 

Besides your signature would raise the eyebrows of any serious RPG player, as to the value of your judgment. Therefore what's the use of arguing?

 

This comment is just a joke. What the hell is a serious RPG player? Someones choice of RPG makes their opinion worth less then yours? That is a statement that would make most people question the value of your judgement.

 

Whether or not DA will actually be a good game(we'll see when it comes out), I fear that it won't be financially successful and will end up being the final nail in the old school wrpg coffin.

 

I doubt it. But it could be financially successful and not match up to the expectations of some git in EA marketing section. That's a bigger worry. But that was Biowares mistake given EA's record of killing all creativity.

 

EA has actually got a lot better in recent times. Activision is the new bad guy.

 

Right.

The focus by people here on the optional sex stuff still boggles my mind, but on a final note here's an article on the issue (partly).

 

http://www.edge-online.com/features/1m-sol...cret-pc-success

 

If we are going to judge games quality on sales then ME or NWN are the best selling western RPGs. Reviews point pretty much the same way(With everything from Bio and Obsidian being more 'critically acclaimed' then TW.). What you have is an opinion, no more or less valid then anyone elses.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Bos_hybrid

[Volourn]

"BGII was about Irinicus."

 

Nah. Irenicus played a huge part; but the game was still about the PC. Irenicus was just a starting off point to get the action moving but the focus was still on the PC, and how he/she dealt with being a 'Bhaalspawn' and how they interacted with others to do with it. In fact, Irenicus is irrelevant outside of his hostile relationship with the PC. Even in your dreams, he basically plays the role of the PC's subconcious with some feeling he was just a 'stand in' for Bhaal until Bhaal himself showed up. Irenicus played a huge part in the story as any good antagonist should but he was not the focus. Story wasn't written from his point of view.

[Tigranes]

Volourn is right.

 

*scrub scrub*

[~Di]

The sheep-in-the-brothel thing has been done before in Arcanum. I didn't think it terribly funny then, and I doubt I will if it's in DA. It's just plain silly and tasteless, but some people seem to like silly and tasteless..

 

Brothels are almost a staple in RPG's and have been since BG1. I don't think they add much, frankly, but I'm not going to whine at the forums and write my congressman. I figure it's mostly there for the pimple-faced hormonal set who get all sweaty at the thought of doing naughty things to a few pixels on their monitor. Even the childish sex-cards in the Witcher could basically be ignored, and that was the most juvenile, idiotic "sex-for-the-sake-of-sex" silliness I've ever seen in a video game. I don't expect Bio to come close to meeting that kind of crudity and crassness, so I'm not much worried about it.

 

Edit: Oops, I see the Arcanum sheep has already been mentioned. Neverrr mind!

 

So I'd be right to say you're not into girl on girl action .

 

Not my thing, but it wouldn't make me cringe in horror if I was playing a video game that gave the option.

 

You're spot on though, developers are afraid to deal with sex from a serious perspective, its a hard thing to do. What was it Josh said, something along the lines of developers not being able to treat certain matters seriously or something along those line.

 

I know. I'll be stoned in here for saying this, but I actually like romance options in RPGs! I really liked the ME romances the best, although they too were seriously "romance lite". Still, kudos for the attempt to handle sex in a more mature fashion and at least giving the happy couple a chance, albeit a slim one, to know each other before hooking a horizontal tango.

 

Now from a male perspective, I don't mind collecting cards with half nakid women on 'em, I appriciate naked womenses, but I'm afraid of real women , objectify woman oh mighty developers and then I won't have to deal with my social inadequacy. *fap* *fap*.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love The Witcher. It's a great game! I'd be lying if I said I thought that having a PC with the ability to pound anything with a pulse and add to a collection of sex cards didn't annoy me. I'm annoyed by anything that turns females into disposable meat, especially when it's being peddled to adolescent males. Was that annoyance enough to make me hate the entire game? Not in the least. My Geralt was simply true to Tess in heart, body and mind... well, there was that unfortunate incident with the red-headed nurse, but I digress.

 

I don't think any sex/romance that Bio includes in Dragon Age will be particularly tawdry or tacky, and such things are almost always optional. For the record, I'd love a mature RPG that handled sex and romance in a more realistic manner. I just don't think most game developers see that as a selling point for their target audience... and I can't really blame them!

[Jaesun]

AT least there IS a male/male romance option (If I read that correctly) in DA...

 

That has me mildly.... interested.

 

And I will have to agree with Di on the ME romances. (avoids rocks). I felt Gann in MotB was vastly superior though (and knowing he was supposed to be.... bi-sexual, before that was cut). I'm probably being a bit biased though.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Jaesun

[Aristes]

I don't see how anyone can blame you guys for enjoying the romances. Personally, I despise them. Really, totally despise them. ...But I won't hurl stones at anyone over romances in a video game. Maybe disagree vociferously, but do disagree in any other way?

[Monte Carlo]

^ It is well-known that I too loathe romances in computer games, even more than you. Oh, much more. CRPG romances want to make me lead a latter-day Inquisiton, and expunge them with sword and fire.

 

The only thing that surprises me is that some of the hard-core fans haven't demanded proper turn-based romances.