F3: Mothership Zeta screens & short article

[Oner]

* Reappearance of the Enclave with the exact same MO

I "liked" the horrible plot hole with the whole FEV thing in 3.

 

* Allistair Tenpenny arriving in the US and A from Great Britain. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over.

I don't get this, elaborate please.

[Tagaziel]

He crossed the post-nuclear Atlantic. Alone.

 

Plus, the whole Tenpenny Tower gig he has going on just doesn't make any sense. Residents supposedly pay for living there, but none have any income. The tower has no source of water or food and no caravan stops there.

 

Though I guess it's all due to Beth ripping out a plot device from a movie and jury-rigging it into their game (Land of the Dead in this case)

[Syraxis]

* Reappearance of the Enclave with the exact same MO

I "liked" the horrible plot hole with the whole FEV thing in 3.

 

I swear if they're the main antagonist in one more game

[HoonDing]

Isn't there another thread for FO3 bashing?

[213374U]

Yeah, they respected and feared nuclear energy so much, that the only place they could store a 80 year old nuke was under the nose of their revered and irreplaceable leader. No chance it would go off, no sirree. No chance in hell. I mean, the President feels perfectly safe doing that too, so keeping nuclear explosives within arm's reach must be a staple of the setting or something.

 

Uh, if you read the dialogue file, it's stored in the Cathedral because:

 

a. It's the most secure location the Unity has

b. It's their ultimate last resort weapon

c. The nuclear detonation key is in a separate location - on the opposite end of the game map, actually

d. They keep it in top condition at all times

e. They monitor it 24/7/365/100

 

So yeah, there is no chance in hell that it'd go off on its own or someone to sneak in and detonate it. Unless he's the player character, but as we all know, PCs are a very special case.

Really, that's pretty goofy no matter how hard you try to justify it.

 

a. Safer than Mariposa or any number of other abandoned and forgotten US military facilities? Okay, if you say so. Cathedral is, after all, just the freaking seat of the visible face of the Master's operation.

b. Sure, but storing it under Cathedral only makes sense if it's to be used as a self-destruct "last resort".

c. So why not do it the other way around, then?

d/e. Yep. That's what made sabotage possible. A non-functional nuke can't be made to explode.

 

It's obvious that the devs had no problem with something that nonsensical/silly making it into the game - TWICE. Why do you? Fallout is many things, but it's most certainly not a paradigm of plausibility, plot solidness, or seriousness.

[Oner]

He crossed the post-nuclear Atlantic. Alone.

 

Plus, the whole Tenpenny Tower gig he has going on just doesn't make any sense. Residents supposedly pay for living there, but none have any income. The tower has no source of water or food and no caravan stops there.

 

Though I guess it's all due to Beth ripping out a plot device from a movie and jury-rigging it into their game (Land of the Dead in this case)

Thanks, though iirc someone mentions caravans stopping at the hotel, but that still doesn't explain the other points you mentioned.

 

a. Safer than Mariposa or any number of other abandoned and forgotten US military facilities? Okay, if you say so. Cathedral is, after all, just the freaking seat of the visible face of the Master's operation.

Yeah, it was so visible that no one knew it existed, let alone found it.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Oner

[213374U]

a. Safer than Mariposa or any number of other abandoned and forgotten US military facilities? Okay, if you say so. Cathedral is, after all, just the freaking seat of the visible face of the Master's operation.

Yeah, it was so visible that no one knew it existed, let alone found it.

Huh? You mean nobody knew about the CoC? How the hell were they trying to recruit/brainwash people all over the place then?

[Tagaziel]

a. Safer than Mariposa or any number of other abandoned and forgotten US military facilities? Okay, if you say so. Cathedral is, after all, just the freaking seat of the visible face of the Master's operation.

 

Which everyone assumes is a weird place? Normal people stay away from the Cathedral and brainwashed drones don't ask questions. It's precisely the place you want to keep the ultimate weapon - one, you always know where it is and control who has access. Two, only the most loyal to your cause are allowed anywhere near the underground vault. Three, the Children make damn sure no unauthorized pests can access the basement.

 

If you recall, to get into the basement, you either have to confess to Morpheus that you're a Vault Dweller and be taken to the Master, snatch Morpheus' black key and open it or lockpick the door (very hard) and evade the Nightkin beyond it. Pretty good security setup.

 

b. Sure, but storing it under Cathedral only makes sense if it's to be used as a self-destruct "last resort".

 

The Unity would remove the bomb, should the need be.

 

c. So why not do it the other way around, then?

 

You mean, stockpile your assets in one location (Vats and the bomb)? That's... not a bright thing to do.

 

A key can be replaced or bypassed, a bomb can not.

 

d/e. Yep. That's what made sabotage possible. A non-functional nuke can't be made to explode.

 

So instead he should have a pile of junk lying about and pretend it's his ultimate weapon?

 

It's obvious that the devs had no problem with something that nonsensical/silly making it into the game - TWICE. Why do you? Fallout is many things, but it's most certainly not a paradigm of plausibility, plot solidness, or seriousness.

 

It makes sense internally. That's what counts, internal coherence.

 

And it makes sense, if you stop operating on the assumption that it has to be nonsensical and actually read what the NPCs say.

 

a. Safer than Mariposa or any number of other abandoned and forgotten US military facilities? Okay, if you say so. Cathedral is, after all, just the freaking seat of the visible face of the Master's operation.

Yeah, it was so visible that no one knew it existed, let alone found it.

Huh? You mean nobody knew about the CoC? How the hell were they trying to recruit/brainwash people all over the place then?

 

No one knew about the Vault or the Master.

 

Isn't there another thread for FO3 bashing?

 

So even the mildest criticism of Fo3 is automatically bashing?

Edited July 16, 2009 by Mikael Grizzly

[TwinkieGorilla]

No, its not. Its a freaking good game getting better and better DLCs.

 

ROFFFFFFLECOPTER GO!!!

 

Also, Twinkie - what the hell is your avatar ? Some sort of demonic owl?

 

The Great Owl!

 

Life is too short to get hung up on such trivial matters.

 

*slaps back of head*

 

wake up, like...you're part of the debate. just cuz yr on the cuddly wubby Bethie fanboy side doesn't mean you aren't taking part in the very same trivial matter.

 

Isn't there another thread for FO3 bashing?

 

yeah, most likely any threads created and related. as it should be.

[213374U]

Which everyone assumes is a weird place? Normal people stay away from the Cathedral and brainwashed drones don't ask questions. It's precisely the place you want to keep the ultimate weapon - one, you always know where it is and control who has access. Two, only the most loyal to your cause are allowed anywhere near the underground vault. Three, the Children make damn sure no unauthorized pests can access the basement.

 

If you recall, to get into the basement, you either have to confess to Morpheus that you're a Vault Dweller and be taken to the Master, snatch Morpheus' black key and open it or lockpick the door (very hard) and evade the Nightkin beyond it. Pretty good security setup.

Yeah, and odd places don't attract attention at all. I'm sure that the US gov't store all their secrets in Area 51 AND the shadow government is seated there, too.

 

 

The Unity would remove the bomb, should the need be.

Then why store it there to begin with, if it's going to be lugged around anyway? It makes no sense other than as a plot device. Which it is.

 

 

You mean, stockpile your assets in one location (Vats and the bomb)? That's... not a bright thing to do.

The central element of the Unity was the Master, above the vats. The FEV could conceivably be reproduced, the Master could not.

 

 

A key can be replaced or bypassed, a bomb can not.

Nonsense. Nuclear activation keys are impossible to bypass for all intents and purposes, with our present level of computational capacity. In the Fallout world where they work with vacuum-tube technology (if at all), don't even think about it.

 

 

So instead he should have a pile of junk lying about and pretend it's his ultimate weapon?

No, he should have nothing. As far as anyone could tell, anyway.

 

But hey, whatever man. Sitting on top of an armed nuke is sound advice, all the way. \o/

 

 

It makes sense internally. That's what counts, internal coherence.

 

And it makes sense, if you stop operating on the assumption that it has to be nonsensical and actually read what the NPCs say.

Nice way of saying that Fallout writing should be exempt from scrutiny... because you say so. Also, the plot is to be taken very seriously, but if common sense conflicts with it, then common sense must be wrong. Internal coherence does not preclude nonsense. I don't think we're going to get any further. You are willing to preserve your suspension of disbelief for Fallout no matter what, but won't do the same for Fallout 3.

 

 

No one knew about the Vault or the Master.

Except for the higher echelon of the CoC, the muties, and conveniently, the PC. But that's not the point. The bottom line is that the only command and control center for the Master's army was located under the main HQ of a very publicly active organization which was quite blatantly up to no good. What is the need for the CoC base to be on top of the Master's Vault? Back to my comment about Area 51, just now replace the military base on top with the main Republican Party facility in the country.

[Hurlshort]

I enjoyed Fallout 3, but it's a shame that every time I try to read up on one of these threads, they are filled with whiny posts about Bethesda. Seriously, it is time to move on TwinkieGorilla.

[Malcador]

Remember, always be positive.

[Tagaziel]

Yeah, and odd places don't attract attention at all. I'm sure that the US gov't store all their secrets in Area 51 AND the shadow government is seated there, too.

 

In post-nuclear lawless wastelands people prefer to keep their lives rather than explore. Especially if the place in question is rumoured to be... not so friendly.

 

Then why store it there to begin with, if it's going to be lugged around anyway? It makes no sense other than as a plot device. Which it is.

 

It's not needed as a plot device. The Master can just as well commit suicide and not blow the Cathedral up and the Unity still falls apart.

 

And why is it there? It's the most secure location in the Unity.

 

The central element of the Unity was the Master, above the vats. The FEV could conceivably be reproduced, the Master could not.

 

FEV-II could not be reproduced by the Unity. And, as said, hostile infiltration of the Master's Lair was exceedingly unlikely.

 

Nonsense. Nuclear activation keys are impossible to bypass for all intents and purposes, with our present level of computational capacity. In the Fallout world where they work with vacuum-tube technology (if at all), don't even think about it.

 

Quite the opposite. A scientific/repair genius can bypass the key and arm the nuke. That's how it works in Fo.

 

No, he should have nothing. As far as anyone could tell, anyway.

 

But hey, whatever man. Sitting on top of an armed nuke is sound advice, all the way. \o/

 

Uh, the nuke is not armed.

 

Nice way of saying that Fallout writing should be exempt from scrutiny... because you say so. Also, the plot is to be taken very seriously, but if common sense conflicts with it, then common sense must be wrong. Internal coherence does not preclude nonsense. I don't think we're going to get any further. You are willing to preserve your suspension of disbelief for Fallout no matter what, but won't do the same for Fallout 3.

 

Because Fallout makes sense? You are an evil overlord. You find the mightiest weapon. You keep it close, but disarmed. You store the activation key with your sidekick that can't be bribed or otherwise circumvented. The bomb can't be activated unless by you or a charismatic, ingenious scientific and technical hero who learns of your secret lair, infiltrates it without fail by stealing purple robes and posing flawlessly as your messenger, one that is skillful enough to circumvent a nuclear arming key.

 

It's pretty much impossible, unless you are the player character.

 

 

Except for the higher echelon of the CoC, the muties, and conveniently, the PC. But that's not the point. The bottom line is that the only command and control center for the Master's army was located under the main HQ of a very publicly active organization which was quite blatantly up to no good. What is the need for the CoC base to be on top of the Master's Vault? Back to my comment about Area 51, just now replace the military base on top with the main Republican Party facility in the country.

 

Uh, no, it was not blatantly up to no good. Most people of the wastelands had absolutely no idea CoC was anything except weird, even the Followers of the Apocalypse only had a vague "something is wrong there" idea. The Brotherhood was completely ignorant, outside rumours of an army in the north while the Hub merchants thought it was the Deathclaw slashing up their caravans.

 

The Children were perceived as weird, but helpful with free medical care and other support offered to the people of the wasteland. Only the Vault Dweller was able to see the evil, but not without the Overseer's help and him connecting the facts.

 

So, yeah, it's not a far fetched situation. Certainly less than people building a town around a deteriorating live nuclear weapon.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Seriously, it is time to move on TwinkieGorilla.

 

oh, ok. because you say so. thank goodness i take you, your philosophy and forum posts so seriously. i will honor your ideology and apologize for muddying up your will to read up about the gift that keeps on giving.

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

or, no, not really. most likely i'll keep doing what i feel like doing but thanks for the attention. i just loves me some attention.

[Jaesun]

I enjoyed Fallout 3, but it's a shame that every time I try to read up on one of these threads, they are filled with whiny posts about Bethesda. Seriously, it is time to move on TwinkieGorilla.

 

[intelligence] So you fight the good fight with your voice on Galaxy News Radio.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Jaesun

[Oner]

I enjoyed Fallout 3, but it's a shame that every time I try to read up on one of these threads, they are filled with whiny posts about Bethesda. Seriously, it is time to move on TwinkieGorilla.

 

[intelligence] So you fight the good fight with your posts on Obsidian Forum.

Fixed

[213374U]

Because Fallout makes sense?

Fallout makes sense in Fallout logic, not beyond. Beyond, it's silly. It is a fictional world, and you pretty much need to accept that licenses are going to be taken to drive a plot forward, provide entertainment, etc. The devs accept that. I accept that. Why don't you?

 

 

So, yeah, it's not a far fetched situation. Certainly less than people building a town around a deteriorating live nuclear weapon.

How is that any more far-fetched than radiation turning lizards into 7-feet "deathclaws" or creating a sub-race of radiation-immune humans with lifespans in excess of 200 years? Or an experimental virus turning people into psionic blob-machine hybrids?

 

The problem is that you insist on applying real world logic and deductions to Fallout 3, but won't do the same to 1 or 2, using "internal consistency" as an excuse instead. Drop the double standards already.

Edited July 17, 2009 by 213374U

[Tagaziel]

Fallout makes sense in Fallout logic, not beyond. Beyond, it's silly. It is a fictional world, and you pretty much need to accept that licenses are going to be taken to drive a plot forward, provide entertainment, etc. The devs accept that. I accept that. Why don't you?

 

No, that's your approach that it's a deliberate, nonsensical plot device. I approach it as both a plot device and a pretty sensible element of the world.

 

How is that any more far-fetched than radiation turning lizards into 7-feet "deathclaws" or creating a sub-race of radiation-immune humans with lifespans in excess of 200 years? Or an experimental virus turning people into psionic blob-machine hybrids?

 

Fallout world's physics operate in a different way (quoth MCA)

 

The problem is that you insist on applying real world logic and deductions to Fallout 3, but won't do the same to 1 or 2, using "internal consistency" as an excuse instead. Drop the double standards already.

 

I use real world logic in Fo1 and Fo2. Fo2 is, admittedly, inconsistent, but a majority of it makes sense, whereas Fo3 doesn't even try to make sense.

 

There were a handful of inconsistencies in Fo1 too, but nowhere near the amount in Fo3.

[213374U]

No, that's your approach that it's a deliberate, nonsensical plot device. I approach it as both a plot device and a pretty sensible element of the world.

Fallout world's physics operate in a different way (quoth MCA)

ROFL

 

Doublethink much?

[Tagaziel]

No, that's your approach that it's a deliberate, nonsensical plot device. I approach it as both a plot device and a pretty sensible element of the world.

Fallout world's physics operate in a different way (quoth MCA)

ROFL

 

Doublethink much?

 

How does one exclude the other?

 

Fallout's physics operate in a different way, allowing for ghouls and deathclaws, but that doesn't undermine logic and sensibility.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Fo2 is, admittedly, inconsistent

 

Understatement of the year. Like saying the sun is kinda hot.

[213374U]

Fallout's physics operate in a different way, allowing for ghouls and deathclaws, but that doesn't undermine logic and sensibility.

How is that NOT both silly AND a plot device???

[Tagaziel]

Fallout's physics operate in a different way, allowing for ghouls and deathclaws, but that doesn't undermine logic and sensibility.

How is that NOT both silly AND a plot device???

 

It's not silly, because it's a deliberate design decision. You can't call it silly without throwing every fantasy and scifi work into one basket with the "Silly" tag on it.

[213374U]

It's not silly, because it's a deliberate design decision.

Silly does not mean "accidental", silly!

 

 

You can't call it silly without throwing every fantasy and scifi work into one basket with the "Silly" tag on it.

Depends on the purpose of their plot devices. In this case, "physics not working the same way as their RL counterparts" is only a means towards having stuff like the Master, deathclaws and ghouls. I suppose you're going to tell me that that's serious business.

[Malcador]

I wonder when/if we'll get some KKK like organization, maybe they could be a BoS splinter - burning giant wooden gear symbols outside ghoul settlements. Hmm.