The value of human life

[Llyranor]

And yet you are using said devices. If anything, that makes you an accessory to murder.

[lord of flies]

And yet you are using said devices. If anything, that makes you an accessory to murder.

This computer was produced, marketed and sold without my involvement. Buying used things has no influence on their rate of production.

[Llyranor]

But you approve of their murderous production. It's not ignorance when you full well know where it comes from. The words you type are made from the blood of innocent African children.

 

I'm not like your kind. I make sure I only use *used* Coltan when building my Coltan-encrusted mansion. Victimless crime is no crime at all.

[alanschu]

But since you asked me, I don't know. Who mined the Coltan in your computer? Hmm?

You assume that I actually purchased this computer, and further that I own it. I have never bought a new computer.

 

No. You're assuming that when I say "your computer" that I am referring to a computer that you own. I was referring to the computer that you currently using. Instead of avoiding the question though, who mined the Coltan in the computer you're currently using?

 

 

 

And yet you are using said devices. If anything, that makes you an accessory to murder.

This computer was produced, marketed and sold without my involvement. Buying used things has no influence on their rate of production.

 

 

Oh I see. So I'm in the clear if the computer I have was purchased used?

 

Or would you like to rationalize things further in order to avoid any cognitive dissonance?

Edited July 1, 2009 by alanschu

[thepixiesrock]

What I want to know is why I'm not newsworthy anymore.

[Walsingham]

What I want to know is why I'm not newsworthy anymore.

 

Because you are never here, you bastard. *sniff*

[thepixiesrock]

This just in! Pixies is back, grown man cries. More at eleven.

[lord of flies]

No. You're assuming that when I say "your computer" that I am referring to a computer that you own. I was referring to the computer that you currently using. Instead of avoiding the question though, who mined the Coltan in the computer you're currently using?

I don't know. Probably someone in Ethiopia or the Congo. Happy now?

Oh I see. So I'm in the clear if the computer I have was purchased used?

Did you buy the computer used? If so, you are morally "in the clear," though you still probably have a connection to African children.

[Meshugger]

But since you asked me, I don't know. Who mined the Coltan in your computer? Hmm?

You assume that I actually purchased this computer, and further that I own it. I have never bought a new computer.

And Lord of Flies: are you perhaps studying something within the field of humanist studies? or maybe political science? Please prove my assumptions wrong.

I am studying actuarial science.

 

Ah, you're going to vote for parties that are Republicanesqu

[Rosbjerg]

Did you buy the computer used? If so, you are morally "in the clear," though you still probably have a connection to African children.

 

Actually I would say buying the computer used is a lesser evil, but in this over-the-top-everyone-is-a-sinner discussion (you would've made a pretty good priest 500 years ago!) it's about as bad..

 

See, if you buy your computer used you are sending a signal to the manufacturers that you don't want to buy their product at full price. Since they essentially lose a costumer (and thereby money) everytime you get a second hand PC/Console, they would rather find a way to sell to you directly.. By indicating price is a problem (even if that is not your intention) they will probably try to lower their prices in a realistic capacity, which often means buying coltan/raw materials from 3rd world countries..

 

So if you really want to do something about this problem make sure you buy a computer which uses metal components that are recycled (say from European or American garbage dumps) and from a factory that pays their workers at least the minimum wage etc etc.. just be prepared to pay 1.5x or 2x as much.

 

Of course doing so would rob that miner in India of his jobs, thereby destroying his means to feed his family..

 

Choices choices choices...

[lord of flies]

Actually I would say buying the computer used is a lesser evil, but in this over-the-top-everyone-is-a-sinner discussion (you would've made a pretty good priest 500 years ago!) it's about as bad..

Of course let's compare criticism of neo-colonialism and western imperialism to "all sex is wrong" Victorian-era prudery.

See, if you buy your computer used you are sending a signal to the manufacturers that you don't want to buy their product at full price. Since they essentially lose a costumer (and thereby money) everytime you get a second hand PC/Console, they would rather find a way to sell to you directly.. By indicating price is a problem (even if that is not your intention) they will probably try to lower their prices in a realistic capacity, which often means buying coltan/raw materials from 3rd world countries..

This doesn't make sense, since the value of a second-hand good will always be less than that of a first-hand good, so it wouldn't make sense for companies to respond to used purchases by altering their price (assuming they even track them, which would require quite a bit of resource distribution).

So if you really want to do something about this problem make sure you buy a computer which uses metal components that are recycled (say from European or American garbage dumps) and from a factory that pays their workers at least the minimum wage etc etc.. just be prepared to pay 1.5x or 2x as much.

 

Of course doing so would rob that miner in India of his jobs, thereby destroying his means to feed his family..

 

Choices choices choices...

The miner in India is a wage laborer, and his job does not contribute to the expansion of India's living standards. A case can be made for the purchase of "sweatshop" goods, in that they service the industrialization of second-world countries allowing them to, eventually, reach first-world levels; however, this does not apply to raw resources like coltan.

Ah, you're going to vote for parties that are Republicanesqu

[Asol]

No. You're assuming that when I say "your computer" that I am referring to a computer that you own. I was referring to the computer that you currently using. Instead of avoiding the question though, who mined the Coltan in the computer you're currently using?

I don't know. Probably someone in Ethiopia or the Congo. Happy now?

Oh I see. So I'm in the clear if the computer I have was purchased used?

Did you buy the computer used? If so, you are morally "in the clear," though you still probably have a connection to African children.

 

You make this rationalization for fun? This is like using 'god made dirt so dirt don't hurt' logic to eat from the floor or the trash with rose glasses on.

If you are hungry and recieve a steak on welfare are you then one to form the opinion that you are somehow not complicient in the slaughter when you eat it? You use the product you participate in the demand. You buy slave goods you demand slaverly, particularly if you do so knowingly.

 

This doesn't make sense, since the value of a second-hand good will always be less than that of a first-hand good, so it wouldn't make sense for companies to respond to used purchases by altering their price (assuming they even track them, which would require quite a bit of resource distribution).

 

Now you're really being a tit. Of course they contemplate and engineer all aspects of product lifecycle, what do they do when every jackalope who actually wanted an idope/applebook all in one gizmatron has one? Close up shop? Obsolescense and a wear lifecycle are designed into the product, you don't escape interaction with the corporate entities by scavenging the products late in their lifespans. You certainly don't excape benefiting from(and endorsing) any exploitation they have performed when you own and persistently employ their products.

You might as well call that opinion magic, the first owners washed off the karma for you.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Asol

[Killian Kalthorne]

You want to know who is responsible for the African children, Flyboy? African parents. Who is responsible for the African parents? Their respective governments. I am so sick of people thinking that the US should be responsible for the whole damn planet. Why can't these other nations grow a pair and show some accountability? Even if the US decides to use its muscle no one is forcing these other nations, may they be African, Indian, Pakistani, or whatever to comply. No one has a gun to their heads, figuratively speaking. Each person is accountable to him or herself, and each government can only blame itself if it makes the wrong policies.

[lord of flies]

You want to know who is responsible for the African children, Flyboy? African parents. Who is responsible for the African parents? Their respective governments. I am so sick of people thinking that the US should be responsible for the whole damn planet. Why can't these other nations grow a pair and show some accountability? Even if the US decides to use its muscle no one is forcing these other nations, may they be African, Indian, Pakistani, or whatever to comply. No one has a gun to their heads, figuratively speaking. Each person is accountable to him or herself, and each government can only blame itself if it makes the wrong policies.

"No one has a gun to their heads, figuratively speaking." L-O-L. Did you forget about the attempted 2002 US-backed coup d'etat of Chavez in Venezuela? The fact that Saddam Hussein complied, in every possible way, with the UN inspectors and yet was still brutally ousted in a war of aggression because of Bush's... God only knows? The "War in Afghanistan," which has no clear goals or ends to reach, and has the backing of the "liberal" Obama? Do I need to remind you that the United States has determined to maintain its hegemony over the world? And that the method for this is - you guessed it - the one thing they lead the world in by a vast margin: military might? Et cetera.

[Killian Kalthorne]

If a government of a nation fails to protect its people and fails to remain in power it deserves to fall. Maybe you aren't quite familiar with this but might does make right. Always has and always will. Its very much a part of being human.

[Blarghagh]

Oh I see. So I'm in the clear if the computer I have was purchased used?

Did you buy the computer used? If so, you are morally "in the clear," though you still probably have a connection to African children.

You don't even really care, do you? Seriously, what the fudge. This post is just "well, maybe on this case, but I'm sure you're still a bastard". You go substantially out of your way to grab every opportunity to insult people with the greed of a Microsoft Executive. Does it take much effort to pretend superiority on such a high level? How old are you? Edited July 2, 2009 by TrueNeutral

[Walsingham]

The fact that Saddam Hussein complied, in every possible way, with the UN inspectors and yet was still brutally ousted in a war of aggression because of Bush's... God only knows? The "War in Afghanistan," which has no clear goals or ends to reach, and has the backing of the "liberal" Obama?

 

 

1. Sure. Saddam was always laying on cookies. And he should still be there, complying with the weapon inspectors.

 

2. You actually said 'reactionary imperialist' Which, in spite of myself, I found unbearably cute. Say it again.

 

3. May I ask what grounds you have for commenting on Afghanistan? Or what you think we should do?

 

~~~

 

Throughout all your comments on these forums the ONE time I've heard you make a concrete suggestion of what should be done is to buy a used computer. Have you any more stunning world-fixing proposals?

[213374U]

[Meshugger]

Ah, you're going to vote for parties that are Republicanesqu

[Walsingham]

Ah, you're going to vote for parties that are Republicanesqu

[Rostere]

I just find it very interesting that you regurgitate the same venom about the western democracies, while being silent about russia in chechnya, china in tibet, indonesia in east timor, the treatment of kurds in turkey, darfur, the maroccan annectation of west sahara, the congolese conflict between congo, ruanda, uganda, the racist policies of zimbabwe against its minorities and so on.

 

Obviously because nobody claims these are not atrocities. There's no sense in arguing unless you're arguing against someone, right?

 

Victorian-era prudery

Oh, come on. What was ever wrong with "Victorian-era prudery"?

 

On a side note - buying a used computer increases the demand for (low-end) new computers, since they are both target the same market (low-end users). That is, assuming not 100% of the people who buy used computers do so out of moral convictions and would not buy a new computer with the same specifications/ benchmark stats.

[alanschu]

Ah, you're going to vote for parties that are Republicanesqu

[lord of flies]

If a government of a nation fails to protect its people and fails to remain in power it deserves to fall. Maybe you aren't quite familiar with this but might does make right. Always has and always will. Its very much a part of being human.

"Might makes right."

-Killan Kalthorne

 

"Might makes right."

-Adolf Hitler

I just find it very interesting that you regurgitate the same venom about the western democracies, while being silent about russia in chechnya, china in tibet, indonesia in east timor, the treatment of kurds in turkey, darfur, the maroccan annectation of west sahara, the congolese conflict between congo, ruanda, uganda, the racist policies of zimbabwe against its minorities and so on.

I am not silent on these things, they are disgusting, horrifying actions that should be condemned and dealt with via diplomatic channels, that should appear on every news broadcast until these problems are fixed, that should not be ignored by the media and the government just because we trade with these countries, or just because we feel like we should target Iran because apparently we just can't hit the target.

3. May I ask what grounds you have for commenting on Afghanistan? Or what you think we should do?

There should be a real plan with goals and timetables and such, made clear to the public and the world, on how we plan on reforming Afghanistan, its government, and its populous. At the moment, we are just trying to seize "control" of a ****ty country from the Taliban.

Throughout all your comments on these forums the ONE time I've heard you make a concrete suggestion of what should be done is to buy a used computer. Have you any more stunning world-fixing proposals?

These problems are too complex to be solved in a half-minute internet debate, buddy. Recognizing the problem is the important first step.

[alanschu]

No. You're assuming that when I say "your computer" that I am referring to a computer that you own. I was referring to the computer that you currently using. Instead of avoiding the question though, who mined the Coltan in the computer you're currently using?

I don't know. Probably someone in Ethiopia or the Congo. Happy now?

 

Unlikely. How about Australia? Canada? Brazil? Those are the three largest suppliers of tantalum. In 2004 Australia supplied 75% of worldwide demand. If you want to believe Wikipedia, less than 1% of worldwide Coltan supplies comes from the Congo.

 

 

Did you buy the computer used? If so, you are morally "in the clear," though you still probably have a connection to African children.

 

I'm very glad you've deemed yourself qualified enough to declare me morally in the clear. Though if I have a connection with African children, so do you. It's pretty convincing though when you have to shift words to such powerful things as "probably."

 

I know you're enjoying rationalizing your life away to prevent any cognitive dissonance. Unfortunately, regardless of whether or not you are directly paying for your own internet connection, your use of it continues to contribute to the demand for internet services, which means you're still quite complicit in maintaining the demand for computer related equipment to maintain the various servers and backbones that provide us with the internet service we value so highly. Not to mention that these tech guys also use cellular phones to be available in case there are any outages.

 

So, you are not morally "in the clear." Hate to break it to you. Furthermore, I'm curious why you bother visiting a videogame website to discuss this since video games themselves place a significant demand on technology and help drive the industry forward. The PS2 helped place a large demand on Coltan.

 

 

 

"Might makes right."

-Killan Kalthorne

 

"Might makes right."

-Adolf Hitler

 

Always nice to see some application of Godwin's rule. Your quote is stupid though, because Hitler's might was stopped by Allied and Communist forces. Because they had greater might than the Axis forces, we get to go around and impose our will on the world while the Nazi's don't. Making the connection to Hitler doesn't invalidate Killian's claim (even if I disagree with it).

Edited July 2, 2009 by alanschu

[Walsingham]

3. May I ask what grounds you have for commenting on Afghanistan? Or what you think we should do?

There should be a real plan with goals and timetables and such, made clear to the public and the world, on how we plan on reforming Afghanistan, its government, and its populous. At the moment, we are just trying to seize "control" of a ****ty country from the Taliban.

Throughout all your comments on these forums the ONE time I've heard you make a concrete suggestion of what should be done is to buy a used computer. Have you any more stunning world-fixing proposals?

These problems are too complex to be solved in a half-minute internet debate, buddy. Recognizing the problem is the important first step.

 

I don't think I've ever espoused anything other than a reasoned, balanced and long-term commitment to helping Afghanistan. I've been interested in the country for over ten years, have studied it in quite a bit of depth, and have friends from there and serving there. If you think there aren't smart people with clear goals and plans for the country knocking about in power then you're relying on the mass media too much. There's much that can be improved by way of development aid, but I think you need to sharpen your awareness before you adopt poses of authority which even I'd hestitate at.

 

Recognising the problem isn't the issue. If I may say so one reason I like this forum so much is everyone kinda gets the problems. So, I ask again: what are you selling by way of solutions? And don't fob us off with teh excuse taht it's too complex. We don't need to hear about every nut and bolt. Tell us the executive summary of your proletarian panacea for Africa.