Dragon Age

[Maria Caliban]

Besides, "infringing" without the very important qualifier of copyright in front of it makes your sentence make zero sense.

 

I understood it.

 

Why bother get hung up on semantics? What point does it prove to show that "Oh, they're actually doing copy copyright infringement, not stealing."

 

Because if they stole the game from a store and get caught, they'd get a slap on the wrists. If they infringe the copyright and get caught, they'll might have to play a $180,000 fine. Your suggestion is akin to saying that the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder is one of semantics.

 

Dragon Age should be discussed.

 

Your little, red X is VERY persuasive.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[Kelverin]

P.S. DA > BG

 

I agree with Volourn, DA > BG. But I think it's pretty close

 

Well no ****, How old is BG? DA should be a vast improvement. Let's see if it is.

[Oner]

To get back to the discussion on length/replayability, I'm one of those for whom length is sometimes a detriment to my enjoyment of the game. On an average week, I can usually manage 10-ish hours of playtime. 15 if I'm really into a game and let it keep me up later than it should. And I seem to often get sick of whatever type of gameplay after 3 weeks or so and start yearning to play something different. If I'm not close to finishing the game by that point, and if the story/characters/etc. hasn't really hooked me so that I can overlook the gameplay getting dull, it usually goes on the shelf for a while. (And once it's there, it may not come out again.)

I don't mind long games...if there is something to keep me occupied. In Sands of Time for instance, the game was short, but the characters were almost constantly chatting, either providing entertainment or/and exposition.

Runnind 10 minutes or killing the same 3 types of monsters with their ridiculous taunts/death cries (bonus points for bad voices providing bad acting - I'm looking at you, NWN 1), without anyone saying anything worth listening to.

[Volourn]

"Runnind 10 minutes or killing the same 3 types of monsters with their ridiculous taunts/death cries (bonus points for bad voices providing bad acting - I'm looking at you, NWN 1), without anyone saying anything worth listening to."

 

1. NWN had way more than 3 monster types.

 

2. NWN's voice acting espicially the enemy taunts was awesome.

 

3. NWN is BIO's best game.

 

Period.

[Oner]

"Runnind 10 minutes or killing the same 3 types of monsters with their ridiculous taunts/death cries (bonus points for bad voices providing bad acting - I'm looking at you, NWN 1), without anyone saying anything worth listening to."

 

1. NWN had way more than 3 monster types.

 

2. NWN's voice acting espicially the enemy taunts was awesome.

 

3. NWN is BIO's best game.

 

Period.

I had a typo, oops, I meant an hour. Anyway:

 

1.

Honestly, what's the point of a facepalm emote if it's smiling?

 

 

2. Right, and barbarians know the word 'complex'. Well, there's not much to discuss on this.

 

3. Hordes of the Underdark, perhaps, but NWN OC? Pffft.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Oner

[213374U]

LOL at the pedantic piracy advocates insisting on the terms that make their crime seem least odious.

I agree. But for some reason I also LOL at the pedantic piracy critics that insist on using terms that make IP violation seem more odious.

 

Value judgements for everyone!

[Gorth]

Value judgements for everyone!

Yes. Your position sometimes depends on whether you are the perpetrator or the victim.

 

Lets stick to discussing Dragon Age for the time being and if anyone has a problem with the concept of "taking what doesn't belong to you without paying your due for it and depriving somebody else of their livelyhood in the process" being wrong, they are welcome to PM me.

[Maria Caliban]

... if anyone has a problem with the concept of "taking what doesn't belong to you without paying your due for it and depriving somebody else of their livelyhood in the process" being wrong, they are welcome to PM me.

 

Cause Gorth can SET YOU UP. In the scene, he's known as G-cr4kr. You know that thing where you move a jumper wire from the IC2 ROM chip to the other side of the C4 pin with an Atari 2600? Gorth invented that!

[Gorth]

Cause Gorth can SET YOU UP. In the scene, he's known as G-cr4kr. You know that thing where you move a jumper wire from the IC2 ROM chip to the other side of the C4 pin with an Atari 2600? Gorth invented that!

Atari 2600? Was that a crack at my age young lady?

 

When I was young, there be dragons blah blah etc. (keeps talking about the good old days)

 

I am sure the games were better too

 

I seriously miss games that had the level of detail of the IE games. I might be old fashioned, but somehow I still find the artwork and level gfx of those old 2d games superior to most 3d modelled stuff.

 

Edit: For the record, I never had an Atari 2600. My first computer was a C64 in 1983

[alanschu]

Besides, "infringing" without the very important qualifier of copyright in front of it makes your sentence make zero sense.

 

I understood it.

 

Only because you have to recognize that he means copyright infringement by mentally adding the copyright qualifier in front of it. If you take the literal definition of the word ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infringement ) it doesn't make sense, because they aren't planning on infringing the game (whatever that means...for some reason my mind is in the gutter), their planning on infringing on the copyright.

 

 

Why bother get hung up on semantics? What point does it prove to show that "Oh, they're actually doing copy copyright infringement, not stealing."

 

Because if they stole the game from a store and get caught, they'd get a slap on the wrists. If they infringe the copyright and get caught, they'll might have to play a $180,000 fine. Your suggestion is akin to saying that the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder is one of semantics.

 

Strawman argument. Especially given that current definitions of stealing are slowly molding to include theft of intellectual property. Probably because in the context of software piracy, people

 

 

Well no ****, How old is BG? DA should be a vast improvement. Let's see if it is.

 

I don't know why it would have to be a "vast improvement." Or even an improvement at all. Simply because something is old does not mean that stuff after it should inherently be better. Take literature for example. Do I think DA is a vast improvement over BG? Well, I guess that depends. Graphically (or some other way with a more obvious metric) then yes. But other ways are entirely subjective to the person. I think Baldur's Gate 2 is a much better game than Baldur's Gate 1 for a variety of reasons, but I know there are lots that prefer the first one.

 

 

I see that the Gorth has spoken, so I'll stop the discussion about those that wish to take what doesn't belong to them without paying their due for it and depriving somebody else of their livelyhood in the process. Even if I find it soooooooooooooooooooooooo hard if someone responds

[Kelverin]

I don't know why it would have to be a "vast improvement." Or even an improvement at all. Simply because something is old does not mean that stuff after it should inherently be better. Take literature for example.

Any other examples besides literature?

 

Progress is a good thing and technically the capabilities for improvement are there. As a consumer I demand that games improve as technology does, now I know this is not the way it works but I will demand it nonetheless. Why would I expect less, what reason does a game studio (or any other business for that matter) have for not constantly improving their products?

[alanschu]

Why do I need a better example than literature?

 

In any case, how about paintings?

 

 

 

When you say you demand games to improve as technology, then I have to ask you: What makes a game good?

[Aristes]

Some games are classics and they continue to captivate me despite the crudity of their construction. This can anything from that little game with the marbles and you have to remove them in order and only end up in one to the latest FPS. However, from a technical standpoint, you would hope that DA would at least surpass BG in terms of graphics, load times, and the other factors on which technology impacts.

 

As for me, I did have an atari 2600. I had a pong. Your comments are so hurtful, MC. Seriously. :'( I'm not old. I'm just 'mature.'

Edited July 6, 2009 by Aristes

[Kelverin]

Why do I need a better example than literature?

 

In any case, how about paintings?

 

 

 

When you say you demand games to improve as technology, then I have to ask you: What makes a game good?

I didn't say better, I said different. I still say that individual writer's and painters for that manner should improve as they advance their technique or craft don't you?

 

What makes a game good? What a loaded question that is. My pat and boring answer that is true nonetheless for me is one that keeps me entertained, challenges me, and delights the senses. Also comparing games is difficult, nostalgia is a huge factor. Even though BG is a great game how can it not be improved, the writing sure can, graphics, shallow NPC's, dungeons and pathfinding are horrific. Now the music, rule set, art direction is really what remains and that that will be left up to the individual to judge if it has improved at all. Just try to keep nostalgia out of it, which admittedly is difficult to do.

[Maria Caliban]

Why bother get hung up on semantics? What point does it prove to show that "Oh, they're actually doing copy copyright infringement, not stealing."

 

Because if they stole the game from a store and get caught, they'd get a slap on the wrists. If they infringe the copyright and get caught, they'll might have to play a $180,000 fine. Your suggestion is akin to saying that the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder is one of semantics.

 

Strawman argument. Especially given that current definitions of stealing are slowly molding to include theft of intellectual property. Probably because in the context of software piracy, people

 

I believe you're confused about what 'strawman argument' means.

 

In a strawman argument, I create a position for you and then argue against it. As your quote shows, your position is that the difference between infringement and stealing is a semantical one. Mine is that in the eyes of the law, these two are different crimes, and as we're talking about an illegal activity, legal definitions matter.

[213374U]

I don't know why it would have to be a "vast improvement." Or even an improvement at all. Simply because something is old does not mean that stuff after it should inherently be better. Take literature for example. Do I think DA is a vast improvement over BG? Well, I guess that depends. Graphically (or some other way with a more obvious metric) then yes. But other ways are entirely subjective to the person. I think Baldur's Gate 2 is a much better game than Baldur's Gate 1 for a variety of reasons, but I know there are lots that prefer the first one.

I'd expect DA to be an improvement over BG because devs are supposed to have more experience and be more adept at their trade, but mainly because the technology allows for better games today. Graphics notwithstanding, the core of the game (gameplay) should be better, more complex, more engaging, and with superior AI. The same for quest design. Unfortunately, since BG, and with the exception of the interface and camera-terrible NWN, Bio has chosen to downgrade gameplay for their games, possibly to make them viable for consoles.

 

So, how is gameplay compared to BG?

Edited July 6, 2009 by 213374U

[alanschu]

Why do I need a better example than literature?

 

In any case, how about paintings?

 

 

 

When you say you demand games to improve as technology, then I have to ask you: What makes a game good?

I didn't say better, I said different. I still say that individual writer's and painters for that manner should improve as they advance their technique or craft don't you?

 

I'm not a painter so it's hard to say. If you were to ask a lot of random people what they felt were the best pieces of literature or paintings, you'd probably get a lot of people bringing up old pieces. Nostalgia? Maybe. I don't know.

 

What makes a game good? What a loaded question that is. My pat and boring answer that is true nonetheless for me is one that keeps me entertained, challenges me, and delights the senses. Also comparing games is difficult, nostalgia is a huge factor. Even though BG is a great game how can it not be improved, the writing sure can, graphics, shallow NPC's, dungeons and pathfinding are horrific. Now the music, rule set, art direction is really what remains and that that will be left up to the individual to judge if it has improved at all. Just try to keep nostalgia out of it, which admittedly is difficult to do.

 

I know it's a loaded question. Some people will love the writing of Baldur's Gate more than DA, while others will prefer the writing of DA. In what ways can the writing be improved? For some the NPCs, as shallow as they may be in BG, were actually still quite detailed and entertaining (I still love Minsc, but as you say, nostalgia). DA allows for interaction with party members though, so I guess that's the step in the right direction that you're looking for, correct?

 

Some stuff gets trickier though. You say you want better pathfinding, but pathfinding is actually a pretty complex problem in which Universities spend several millions of dollars researching, with relatively slow progress for implementation in games due to cost. Cost in terms of complexity (good solutions are hard to implement), as well as in computational power (there's some fantastically accurate ways of doing it, but you can't do it in real time). Never mind that there will be 2D vs 3D problems as well.

 

 

I'd expect DA to be an improvement over BG because devs are supposed to have more experience and be more adept at their trade, but mainly because the technology allows for better games today. Graphics notwithstanding, the core of the game (gameplay) should be better, more complex, more engaging, and with superior AI. The same for quest design. Unfortunately, since BG, and with the exception of the interface and camera-terrible NWN, Bio has chosen to downgrade gameplay for their games, possibly to make them viable for consoles.

 

There is give and take though. There's still very finite resources available, and unfortunately a very large chunk of them go to graphics (I definitely see this as a problem, though many don't). Having said that, you say that Bio has chosen to downgrade the gameplay of their games. The issue there is that Bioware did something different, which unfortunately doesn't always mean better. No doubt they were hoping that the changes in gameplay would have a net positive effect (perhaps they did, given that they were more viable for consoles?).

 

So, how is gameplay compared to BG?

 

I find the two pretty similar to be honest. At least on the PC. I don't have much experience with the console versions of the game so it's hard for me to say.

 

 

In a strawman argument, I create a position for you and then argue against it. As your quote shows, your position is that the difference between infringement and stealing is a semantical one. Mine is that in the eyes of the law, these two are different crimes, and as we're talking about an illegal activity, legal definitions matter.

 

In a strawman argument, you'll take my original argument and distort it in some way, and then argue against that distortion. The distortion that you made here is that you shifted it to a legal discussion, which I never intended it to be. Obsidian message boards isn't a place where appropriate legal definitions and distinctions are necessary. It's a casual place with casual conversation.

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html The examples are a bit over the top, and I suppose an argument could be made that you were just making an analogy. But given the conversation was about Kelverin's decidedly casual use of the term "stealing," I certainly do feel that discussing the terms from a very legal perspective is indeed a distortion of the argument.

 

 

Having said that, the context with which I was using the term stealing, with the examples I provided (all from general dictionaries, not from books of Law), actually fits quite well for your example. In the word of the law, copyright infringement and stealing are different, just as manslaughter and murder are different. In casual use though, you can say that someone stole something and it'd be satisfactory, even if in the eyes of the law there'd need to be a distinction between the legal definition of stealing and copyright infringement, just as you can say someone killed another person even though in the legal eyes you'd need to make a distinction between murder and manslaughter. Before you go "Oh, you use the legal term in the casual use though," all I have to say is that "stealing" has an abundance of uses that go beyond the legal application of the term. Hence, I feel it's just as satisfactory to say that someone stole some computer software via piracy, as it is to say that that young woman stole my heart.

 

Language is fluid, and the casual use of language changes all the time.

Edited July 6, 2009 by alanschu

[Monte Carlo]

My last word on the subject, but in UK jurisdictions property doesn't have to be 'tangible' and therefore illegally downloading games is Theft. Not 'sort of' theft or a 'technical' theft but Theft.

[213374U]

in UK jurisdictions

Stopped reading.

[alanschu]

Hahaha.

 

 

In any case, fixed some bugs. Woo

[Maria Caliban]

Atari 2600? Was that a crack at my age young lady?

 

When I was young, there be dragons blah blah etc. (keeps talking about the good old days)

 

I am sure the games were better too

 

I seriously miss games that had the level of detail of the IE games. I might be old fashioned, but somehow I still find the artwork and level gfx of those old 2d games superior to most 3d modelled stuff.

 

Edit: For the record, I never had an Atari 2600. My first computer was a C64 in 1983

 

 

...As for me, I did have an atari 2600. I had a pong. Your comments are so hurtful, MC. Seriously. :'( I'm not old. I'm just 'mature.'

 

Seems I hit a sore spot. I would never suggest that the wise and mature gamers who contribute to our community are 'old.' They are experienced.

[Niten_Ryu]

I'd expect DA to be an improvement over BG because devs are supposed to have more experience and be more adept at their trade, but mainly because the technology allows for better games today. Graphics notwithstanding, the core of the game (gameplay) should be better, more complex, more engaging, and with superior AI. The same for quest design. Unfortunately, since BG, and with the exception of the interface and camera-terrible NWN, Bio has chosen to downgrade gameplay for their games, possibly to make them viable for consoles.

 

So, how is gameplay compared to BG?

 

Developers might be more adept but they are also restricted by the realities of modern game industry. Technology might allow better games but budgets and schedules give limits what developers can and cannot do. None is going to bother with AI. It's roughly the same as it's been since Baldur's Gate. There's just no way that Bioware would do cutting edge AI research when 15 year old tech is more then enough to challenge majority of the casual players. Pathfinding is another forgotten issue. I find it hard to belive that modern games (various genres) still have really bad pathfinding in general. I was recently playing the Sims 3 and almost hit my monitor with sledgehammer when 4 sims got trapped in narrow hallway.

 

Dragon Age is original IP so combat mechanics are free of crappy D&D rules. In theory Dragon Age should have much better and tactical combat but it's really hard to say from released videos and trailers. Chances are that it still has issues that are similar to D&D legacy issues. Something as simple as failing to keep melee attacks in-sych with animations might be one of those issues. Combat mechanics design should always match with animations.

 

Not sure what you mean with complexity ? I think focus is to the opposite. To keep everything as simple as possible. In UI design it's a very good thing as it's rare to hear requests from more complex UI. From challenge point of view it's not as simple but casual majority want easy content and only few of us hardcore old timers like a difficult fights. Money is where the casual players are so I wouldn't expect much complexity.

[213374U]

Good points, good points. I do hope some of the improvements in AI accomplished in FPSs are taken advantage of in other genres, though.

 

 

Not sure what you mean with complexity ? I think focus is to the opposite. To keep everything as simple as possible. In UI design it's a very good thing as it's rare to hear requests from more complex UI. From challenge point of view it's not as simple but casual majority want easy content and only few of us hardcore old timers like a difficult fights. Money is where the casual players are so I wouldn't expect much complexity.

By complexity I mean a system that allows for a reasonable variety of problems presented, and an amount of possible solutions to match, with different chances for success. No win buttons, no leaving fights on auto-pilot, no single strategy to dominate the game. But what I want above all is the re-introduction of mechanics that punish player error. Think a checkmate you see coming, but fail (or choose not) to prevent. I'm sick of games where you watch rather than game. Edited July 7, 2009 by 213374U

[mkreku]

New hands-on from Eurogamer: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/dragon-a...nds-on_3?page=1

[Mamoulian War]

New hands-on from Eurogamer: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/dragon-a...nds-on_3?page=1

 

Oh yeah Eurogamer... after their fiasco on Darkfall review i rather avoid that site...

 

When we read the hostile review by Ed Zitron, one thing became apparent: he had not played the game at all. Eurogamer readers and Darkfall players are posting bullet lists of factual errors in the story. The reviewer hadn't even figured out the very basics of the game before he wrote about it. We checked the logs for the 2 accounts we gave Eurogamer and we found that one of them had around 3 minutes playtime, and the other had less than 2 hours spread out in 13 sessions. Most of these 2 hours were spent in the character creator since during almost every one of the logins the reviewer spent the time creating a new character. The rest of the time was apparently spent taking the low-res screenshots that accompanied the article. At no point did this reviewer spend more than a few minutes online at a time.

 

full story about it (Darkfall developer's PoV on it)

 

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=185060

Edited July 8, 2009 by Mamoulian War