DRM?

[Humodour]

Am I the only one who is continually surprised by the degree to which DRM issues get gamers' panties all twisted?

 

It's a freakin game. Install it, play it once or twice, and throw it on a shelf. If it's such a good game that you want to go back to it a few years later, would having to jump through a few hoops or buy a (by then, discounted) second copy be the worst thing in the world? As long as it isn't screwing with other legal stuff you do with your PC (as certain mostly-out-of-fashion DRM schemes were wont to), what's the big deal?

I think most gamers are just excited to have opportunities to rationalize piracy.

 

"Most gamers" aren't pirates so that's a blatant attempt at trolling.

[HoonDing]

You have no idea what SecuRom does to your PC, do you?

Here's the real story: Link

Edited June 16, 2009 by virumor

[Oner]

I think most gamers are just excited to have opportunities to rationalize piracy.

 

"Most gamers" aren't pirates so that's a blatant attempt at trolling.

I'm curious how any of you were able to count them.

[Humodour]

I think most gamers are just excited to have opportunities to rationalize piracy.

 

"Most gamers" aren't pirates so that's a blatant attempt at trolling.

I'm curious how any of you were able to count them.

 

We weren't. But it's highly suspect reasoning that most gamers are pirates!

[Pop]

It's safe to say that anyone online complaining about DRM is actually playing games. The vast majority of those people aren't such sticks in the mud that they would deign not to play a game that has DRM, in fact I think it's safe to say that outrage implies an interest in the game that is complicated by the DRM scheme in question ("I'd buy the game but"). It doesn't make sense to bitch about DRM with regard to a game you think is worthless. Games are all about fun and over-intellectualizing them or making them an ethical sticking point is pushing it for most people. Either they're hypocritical in that they're paying for games despite the DRM they're oh-so-opposed to, or they're pirating. I'd wager that most people don't have your scruples. Given the privacy the internet affords, the ease of acquiring material quickly, and the minuscule chances of getting caught, the feeling of squickiness in partaking in things without paying for them is only really about self-enforcement. Once you get past the guilt of it, it's hard to imagine why you weren't doing it before. Kind of like going from CD format to mp3 players.

 

So no, I don't feel particularly wrong when I say that "most" gamers are pirates. Maybe not habitual pirates, but there's always something, there's always some reason why you'd go on a torrent site and pull down a game. Maybe nostalgia, maybe loss of a hard copy, maybe you have other expenses but you still want to play a game. The industry is certainly viewing its entire PC customer base as potential pirates. They don't really have a reason not to. Gamers don't have many short-term justifications for not pirating (the only one off the top of my head is the risk of computer security compromise), even if it kills them in the long run as hard-to-pirate-for consoles consume ever-larger portions of the market share.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Pop

[alanschu]

I lost my Steam account password for HL2 once and hence lost the game.

 

 

I lost my Steam account password too. I contacted them about it and they gave it to me.

 

 

http://supportwiki.steampowered.com/wiki/R...a_Lost_Password

[alanschu]

Piraters attempted to autheticate the games during launch day itself, overloading the server of Stardocks.

 

Sounds like it was leaked. That's not the fault of DRM.

 

Sins of a Solar Empire is one of the most successful recent PC games, in terms of both copies sold and reviews. It has no DRM.

 

 

If I am not mistaken, Sins of a Solar Empire requires players to log in and validate their copy of game using their Impulse software to download patches for the game.

 

It wasn't always this way but I believe was added for one of the big patches.

 

 

EDIT: And as I upgrade my Impulse Client, it tells me I need IE7 for it to run properly.

Edited June 19, 2009 by alanschu

[Deraldin]

If I am not mistaken, Sins of a Solar Empire requires players to log in and validate their copy of game using their Impulse software to download patches for the game.

 

It wasn't always this way but I believe was added for one of the big patches.

 

You are correct. It does require Impulse to patch, but not to play. Google seems to show that you can get up to 1.05 without needing Impulse, but you wouldn't be able to play online with others.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Deraldin

[alanschu]

I don't know many people that are content not patching their games to the latest version though. Could just be me. But if you need Impulse to patch it, you effectively need Impulse to play the game, as the reason why impulse was made necessary was to validate CD-Keys.

 

I know there was a huge uproar about it on Stardock's forums about it.

 

 

 

Thinking about it now reminds me a lot of the people that bitched up a storm when Gary's Mod went retail for HL2. There were people bitching and moaning that it wasn't fair, it'd be bad, and so on. On numerous occasions I highlighted that the previous versions of Gary's mod would still be available for free, but that wasn't good enough. I said that it'd be equivalent to Gary just stopping work on his mod then, but it was still about how it was unfair, about how Gary's taking advantage of all those that supported him, and how he'd be nowhere without the people that loved to use his stuff blahblahblah.

 

It really cemented to me just how greedy people are. People really do seem to feel a sense of entitlement, and they bitch and moan when they can't get stuff for free.

[Hell Kitty]

Thinking about it now reminds me a lot of the people that bitched up a storm when Gary's Mod went retail for HL2. There were people bitching and moaning that it wasn't fair, it'd be bad, and so on. On numerous occasions I highlighted that the previous versions of Gary's mod would still be available for free, but that wasn't good enough. I said that it'd be equivalent to Gary just stopping work on his mod then, but it was still about how it was unfair, about how Gary's taking advantage of all those that supported him, and how he'd be nowhere without the people that loved to use his stuff blahblahblah.

 

It really cemented to me just how greedy people are. People really do seem to feel a sense of entitlement, and they bitch and moan when they can't get stuff for free.

 

This reminds me of people bitching about DLC, especially if the content of the DLC was made during development of the final game, as though any and all content the developer works on is owed to those who buy the final game. I've also seen folks claim a developer has "betrayed" them be not releasing an editor.

 

The truth is that the dev makes you game, you buy the game, transaction complete. They don't owe you anything, and acting like a spoiled brat isn't going to change that.

[Deraldin]

I don't know many people that are content not patching their games to the latest version though. Could just be me. But if you need Impulse to patch it, you effectively need Impulse to play the game, as the reason why impulse was made necessary was to validate CD-Keys.

 

I know there was a huge uproar about it on Stardock's forums about it.

 

*raises hand* Now you know one more. As long as I don't have any problems I don't really care too much whether the game is patched, mostly because for 95% of games I have no interest in the multiplayer aspect of them so I don't have to worry about being up to date with the latest version of the game.

[Oblarg]

Piraters attempted to autheticate the games during launch day itself, overloading the server of Stardocks.

 

Sounds like it was leaked. That's not the fault of DRM.

 

Sins of a Solar Empire is one of the most successful recent PC games, in terms of both copies sold and reviews. It has no DRM.

 

 

If I am not mistaken, Sins of a Solar Empire requires players to log in and validate their copy of game using their Impulse software to download patches for the game.

 

It wasn't always this way but I believe was added for one of the big patches.

 

 

EDIT: And as I upgrade my Impulse Client, it tells me I need IE7 for it to run properly.

 

Yes, you need to validate for the patches, but then again, I'm sure a really devoted pirate could pirate the patches. The simple fact is, you can use a pirated version, or even just a friends disk, and play the game without any sort of validation whatsoever, and yet SoaSE has still managed to be a very successful game. Stardock's view is thus: People will pirate, and the goal should not to be preventing piracy so much as selling games, and in that respect DRM hinders more than it helps.

[Oner]

Actually, a lot of/most cracks work even after patching.

[alanschu]

I don't know many people that are content not patching their games to the latest version though. Could just be me. But if you need Impulse to patch it, you effectively need Impulse to play the game, as the reason why impulse was made necessary was to validate CD-Keys.

 

I know there was a huge uproar about it on Stardock's forums about it.

 

*raises hand* Now you know one more. As long as I don't have any problems I don't really care too much whether the game is patched, mostly because for 95% of games I have no interest in the multiplayer aspect of them so I don't have to worry about being up to date with the latest version of the game.

 

 

I feel as though the most recent patch was a fantastic change to the game personally (I started playing it again haha).

 

But fair enough, if you don't care, then have at it.

 

 

I like a lot of the balance changes they made though, and it's made both single player and multiplayer games more fun for me.

[alanschu]

Yes, you need to validate for the patches, but then again, I'm sure a really devoted pirate could pirate the patches. The simple fact is, you can use a pirated version, or even just a friends disk, and play the game without any sort of validation whatsoever, and yet SoaSE has still managed to be a very successful game. Stardock's view is thus: People will pirate, and the goal should not to be preventing piracy so much as selling games, and in that respect DRM hinders more than it helps.

 

 

A lot of the people that champion Stardock's model felt it prudent to remind Stardock (over and over in some cases) of this goal when they decided to alter it with the patching mechanism.

 

 

 

As far as patching the game without Impulse, I do know that it is significantly more difficult. I am unaware of any files that are available to download, though obviously don't really care to look since Impulse's method of delivery is fine for me.

[skuld1]

Stardock's view is thus: People will pirate, and the goal should not to be preventing piracy so much as selling games, and in that respect DRM hinders more than it helps.

 

If it was plainly obvious that DRM resulted in a net loss of sales, no publisher would use it. Corporations do not actively engage in money losing propositions when they can very easily make a small change to undo that condition.

 

In any case, from this story : (bold added)

 

"Fixing The Holes - The Results

 

Below are the results of Reflexive.com sales and downloads immediately following each update:

 

Fix 1

[Deraldin]

I feel as though the most recent patch was a fantastic change to the game personally (I started playing it again haha).

 

But fair enough, if you don't care, then have at it.

 

I like a lot of the balance changes they made though, and it's made both single player and multiplayer games more fun for me.

I haven't actually played the game since 1.04 so I can't really comment. Back when I played my TEC missle boats were one stop kill everything machines that worked out pretty well for me.

 

If I was to go back and play now I might update. Dunno what they've added since then, but Stardock games are a rarity among my collection in that they seem to get more than just unit tweaks in their patches, or fixes to bugs that I never encountered anyway. *looks at C&C3* Why must you have nerfed my Mammoth tanks? Just because they were super effective against everything and had better AA than many dedicated AA units...

 

 

A lot of the people that champion Stardock's model felt it prudent to remind Stardock (over and over in some cases) of this goal when they decided to alter it with the patching mechanism.

 

This is one of the things that I don't get. It's not like Stardock just pulled the Impulse patching out of their ass one day and said deal with it. I may be misremembering, but I'm sure I recall them saying that this was where they were going with their games many months if not years ago, that the games would have no protection on themselves, but that any patches or content updates would require authentication to ensure that only paying customers received the product.

[alanschu]

I wasted far too many hours playing the game last night

[Humodour]

It really cemented to me just how greedy people are. People really do seem to feel a sense of entitlement, and they bitch and moan when they can't get stuff for free.

 

One need only take a look at the reaction to LFD2 to see that.

 

Still, that's got nothing to do with the perfectly reasonable desire for non-intrusive DRM.

[alanschu]

Is The Anti-DRM Champion Stardock's action too intrusive?

[Humodour]

Is The Anti-DRM Champion Stardock's action too intrusive?

 

I don't know who or what Stardock is.

 

Somebody mentioned online activation for patches, though? Well that's no better than any other form of online activation, is it? I'd certainly call that intrusive.

 

But I also think Steam is intrusive (for exactly the same reason). I really don't like the concept of online activation. You wouldn't accept it for a music CD or a movie DVD, now would you?

[Oblarg]

Is The Anti-DRM Champion Stardock's action too intrusive?

 

I don't know who or what Stardock is.

 

Somebody mentioned online activation for patches, though? Well that's no better than any other form of online activation, is it? I'd certainly call that intrusive.

 

But I also think Steam is intrusive (for exactly the same reason). I really don't like the concept of online activation. You wouldn't accept it for a music CD or a movie DVD, now would you?

 

You don't need the patches to play the game. At all. The patches are just balance changes and sometimes new content.

 

In addition, once you download the patch, you still don't need to authenticate to play the game.

 

The fact is you can install SoaSE and play no matter what. There is virtually no DRM, yet it still sold tons of copies.

[Silvernite]

Yeah....

 

So anyway back to my original question. What's the news for the type of DRM on this game, devs? Bioware already released info for Dragon Age and their game releases even later than AP.

[alanschu]

Is The Anti-DRM Champion Stardock's action too intrusive?

 

I don't know who or what Stardock is.

 

Somebody mentioned online activation for patches, though? Well that's no better than any other form of online activation, is it? I'd certainly call that intrusive.

 

But I also think Steam is intrusive (for exactly the same reason). I really don't like the concept of online activation. You wouldn't accept it for a music CD or a movie DVD, now would you?

 

 

Funny that the champions for no-DRM implemented this then.

 

 

Obviously they felt it was enough of a concern that if you wanted to patch your game, then you needed to do a quick validation in order to download the game.

 

 

This discussion has nothing to do with CDs or movie DVDs. That's a red herring.

[Oblarg]

Is The Anti-DRM Champion Stardock's action too intrusive?

 

I don't know who or what Stardock is.

 

Somebody mentioned online activation for patches, though? Well that's no better than any other form of online activation, is it? I'd certainly call that intrusive.

 

But I also think Steam is intrusive (for exactly the same reason). I really don't like the concept of online activation. You wouldn't accept it for a music CD or a movie DVD, now would you?

 

 

Funny that the champions for no-DRM implemented this then.

 

 

Obviously they felt it was enough of a concern that if you wanted to patch your game, then you needed to do a quick validation in order to download the game.

 

 

This discussion has nothing to do with CDs or movie DVDs. That's a red herring.

 

Really, you only have to validate your game if you want to download additional content for it, and even then it's not restrictive at all.