A question regarding the character of Michael Thorton.

[Slowtrain]

Yeah, maybe, but it's got ragdoll, so who cares.

 

Ragdoll is the secret key.

 

Neo-colonialsim is not the secret key.

[Humodour]

Not really. More like you believe in taking the opposite stance of anything centrist or right-wing rather than considering things on their merits. Such knee-jerk ideology galls me, from both the left and the right.

Just because someone holds a cohesive worldview that happens to be the opposite of what someone else holds, doesn't mean they're a "contrarian." I could just as easily say that right-wingers are contrarian because they are in opposition to pretty much everything I believe, but does that mean that they define themselves by opposition? No.

 

Poor example (or good example for me). Right-wingers often do define themselves by dogmatic opposition to anything remotely left-of-centre and rarely if ever consider policies on their merits (rather than whether they classify as 'left' or 'right').

 

I hold the viewpoints I hold based upon a utilitarian examination of the past and present functions of human society, which lead me to believe that imperialism is terrible, neo-colonialism is atrocious, warmongers are evil, and capitalism has a net negative effect on human society.

 

Yes, and you'll continue to hold those viewpoints in spite of any evidence to the contrary or consideration on a situational basis. Why?

Edited May 30, 2009 by Krezack

[lord of flies]

I hold the viewpoints I hold based upon a utilitarian examination of the past and present functions of human society, which lead me to believe that imperialism is terrible, neo-colonialism is atrocious, warmongers are evil, and capitalism has a net negative effect on human society.

 

Yes, and you'll continue to hold those viewpoints in spite of any evidence to the contrary or consideration on a situational basis. Why?

Under what circumstances would neocolonialism be acceptable, or what evidence is there to suggest that capitalism is superior to socialism? Care to explain how I have "ignored any evidence to the contrary"? Edited May 30, 2009 by lord of flies

[Venom713]

or what evidence is there to suggest that capitalism is superior to socialism? Care to explain how I have "ignored any evidence to the contrary"?

 

 

lol, I just had to jump in for this. Look at Russia's economy compared to all the capitalist nations' economies (pre-recession).

 

Would be nice to play as a defected MT working for the KGB, however.

[Gorth]

Would be nice to play as a defected MT working for the KGB, however.

Or completely mercenary. Whatstheirnewname formerly known as Blackwater is probably still looking for hired killers. I want to be Leon dammit

[H]

Would be nice to play as a defected MT working for the KGB, however.

It's called FSB these days.

[lord of flies]

lol, I just had to jump in for this. Look at Russia's economy compared to all the capitalist nations' economies (pre-recession).

Hmm, did you notice that Russia is a capitalist country, and that her conversion to capitalism coincided with a major drop in quality of living for people in the country? Did you also notice that Russia's transformation from a flagging power, easily defeated by Germany as it fought a war on multiple fronts, into the number two world power coincided with her conversion to communism?

[H]

lol, I just had to jump in for this. Look at Russia's economy compared to all the capitalist nations' economies (pre-recession).

Hmm, did you notice that Russia is a capitalist country, and that her conversion to capitalism coincided with a major drop in quality of living for people in the country?

Things like that always happen when government/economy undergo fundamental changes. Life here has significantly improved since the 90s.

Did you also notice that Russia's transformation from a flagging power, easily defeated by Germany as it fought a war on multiple fronts, into the number two world power coincided with her conversion to communism?

Communism was better than the complete and utter incompetence of the Romanovs who were panically afraid of any change. Doesn't make it the ultimate political structure.

[Fearless_Jedi]

Yeah, maybe, but it's got ragdoll, so who cares.

 

Ragdoll is the secret key.

 

Neo-colonialsim is not the secret key.

 

I agree, neo-colonialism is not the secret key.

 

Nor is socialism, communism, and any other political structure.

 

That being said, communism can only work if a society truly believes in social equality. However, social equality is impossible to achieve because it goes against our nature to seize power. At least capitalism promotes equal opportunity. In communist russia, the only opportunity you had was the opportunity the government gave you.

[lord of flies]

I agree, neo-colonialism is not the secret key.

 

Nor is socialism, communism, and any other political structure.

 

That being said, communism can only work if a society truly believes in social equality. However, social equality is impossible to achieve because it goes against our nature to seize power. At least capitalism promotes equal opportunity. In communist russia, the only opportunity you had was the opportunity the government gave you.

You use the term "Communism" to describe the distant, unattainable fantasy of Marx. I use it to describe a command economy, because those have actually existed (e.g. USSR). Command economies do and have worked.

 

Things like that always happen when government/economy undergo fundamental changes. Life here has significantly improved since the 90s.

Hmm...

Communism was better than the complete and utter incompetence of the Romanovs who were panically afraid of any change. Doesn't make it the ultimate political structure.

Hmm...

 

Did you notice... that in the year when the Soviets came to power, the government/economy underwent fundamental changes... twice?

 

PS: Do you think in 2011 (20 years after the end of the Soviet Union) Russia will be #2 power in the world, or even #3, as she was in 1937 (20 years after the end of the Russian Empire)?

[Rostere]

[quote name='H

[Fearless_Jedi]

You use the term "Communism" to describe the distant, unattainable fantasy of Marx. I use it to describe a command economy, because those have actually existed (e.g. USSR). Command economies do and have worked.

 

I still prefer equal opportunity and free market to government regulation.

 

All governments are corrupt to some extent. Putting the government in charge of the economy just means the people with money enough to bribe those in charge of regulation are the ones who actually control the economy. In a capitalist system, where corruption in rampant, if you have a good enough product to sell then you can overcome the corruption because it's the consumers who decide the economy's fate.

[Sannom]

Hmm, did you notice that Russia is a capitalist country, and that her conversion to capitalism coincided with a major drop in quality of living for people in the country?

 

Conversion to capitalism BUT with the corruption and non-democratic system still in place. Not that we have anything to say about it : how could the USA and the western European countries applaud Eltsine when he charged an elected Douma with tanks, just because they took decision he didn't like?

 

In a capitalist system, where corruption in rampant, if you have a good enough product to sell then you can overcome the corruption because it's the consumers who decide the economy's fate.

 

Can we still say that now? I mean, the system that was created in the 80's by Reagan and his friends is one big and complete failure. It seems to me that working capitalism always went with some kind of government action and regulation.

[Enoch]

This thread is reason enough for Obsidian to make the story in AP based on personal motivations rather than geopolitical ones. More individual antagonists motivated by greed/love/lust/hate/revenge/etc. and fewer organizational antagonists motivated by politics, please!

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Alpha Protocol 1.02: This time, it's personal!

[Oblarg]

This thread is reason enough for Obsidian to make the story in AP based on personal motivations rather than geopolitical ones. More individual antagonists motivated by greed/love/lust/hate/revenge/etc. and fewer organizational antagonists motivated by politics, please!

 

I agree that it should be more personal and less political. One of the things I really enjoyed about the Bourne series was that Bourne worked for himself, not any particular government. He was a man alone.

[Fearless_Jedi]

This thread is reason enough for Obsidian to make the story in AP based on personal motivations rather than geopolitical ones. More individual antagonists motivated by greed/love/lust/hate/revenge/etc. and fewer organizational antagonists motivated by politics, please!

 

I believe in one of the dev diaries it was explained that players get to choose MT's motivations (patriotism, vengeance, and thrill seeking being the examples used in the video). After this discussion, plain ole' vengeance sounds more interesting than saving the world....ooo maybe there will be a critical moment where we get to choose personal vengeance over saving the world....I totally want to play this game now.

[Oner]

Patriotism, vengeance, and thrill seeking being the examples used in the video.

Sounds like professional, aggressive and suave to me.

[Humodour]

This thread is reason enough for Obsidian to make the story in AP based on personal motivations rather than geopolitical ones. More individual antagonists motivated by greed/love/lust/hate/revenge/etc. and fewer organizational antagonists motivated by politics, please!

 

I disagree. I think this thread is ample evidence that providing political motivations in the game could be really personally involving and rewarding. Deus Ex understood this, even if they never got time to add the option of joining MJ12. The 'freedom' path was, however, superbly executed and I felt compelled not by saving the world or personal gain but the politics behind it all.

[Fearless_Jedi]

Patriotism, vengeance, and thrill seeking being the examples used in the video.

Sounds like professional, aggressive and suave to me.

 

Quite possible that, that is what was meant.

[lord of flies]

This thread is reason enough for Obsidian to make the story in AP based on personal motivations rather than geopolitical ones. More individual antagonists motivated by greed/love/lust/hate/revenge/etc. and fewer organizational antagonists motivated by politics, please!

 

I believe in one of the dev diaries it was explained that players get to choose MT's motivations (patriotism, vengeance, and thrill seeking being the examples used in the video). After this discussion, plain ole' vengeance sounds more interesting than saving the world....ooo maybe there will be a critical moment where we get to choose personal vengeance over saving the world....I totally want to play this game now.

Oh, of course "patriotism," also known as nationalism, the bane of all right-thinking lovers of freedom and equality.

 

Hey, Rorie, you never answered my ****ing question! JESUS ANSWER ALREADY.

 

Also: 29 million Indians starved under British rule as a direct consequence of their dogmatic commitment to laissez-faire capitalism. That's more people than were killed in the holocaust, or under the entire administration of Soviet Russia under Stalin (STALIN!).

[J.E. Sawyer]

Neocolonialism is so 20th century. Come join AP in the 21st.

 

Yeah I said it.

[J.E. Sawyer]

This thread is reason enough for Obsidian to make the story in AP based on personal motivations rather than geopolitical ones. More individual antagonists motivated by greed/love/lust/hate/revenge/etc. and fewer organizational antagonists motivated by politics, please!

I actually had the opposite response. This is why I think working on real-world games with real-world problems and themes is important. People are more likely to take games seriously if they deal with actual problems instead of vaguely displaced angst.

 

Not that all games have to be serious (or be taken seriously) of course, but it would nice for a few of them to be.

[Oblarg]

This thread is reason enough for Obsidian to make the story in AP based on personal motivations rather than geopolitical ones. More individual antagonists motivated by greed/love/lust/hate/revenge/etc. and fewer organizational antagonists motivated by politics, please!

I actually had the opposite response. This is why I think working on real-world games with real-world problems and themes is important. People are more likely to take games seriously if they deal with actual problems instead of vaguely displaced angst.

 

Not that all games have to be serious (or be taken seriously) of course, but it would nice for a few of them to be.

 

Yeah, but I don't think a "lone agent on the run" spy game really fits into that vein. If you're going with that theme, you have to develop the individual characters and their motivations above all else.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The Bourne Identity (really the entire series) is basically all about one guy trying to figure out who he is (personal motivation) within the context of the CIA engaging in sinister neocolonialism (serious, real-world political stuff).

 

I don't think these things are incompatible or at odds at all.