Will there be Next-Gen consoles at all?

[Humodour]

How would removing graphics APIs make programming graphics simpler?

 

Because we will code with our keyboards of magic instead!

[Nightshape]

All you'll get is a bunch of middleware render pipeline systems.

 

It does mean we will likely see a raytracer vs rasteriser showdown

Edited February 2, 2009 by Nightshape

[Rhomal]

You are saying the above example can not play modern games? You do NOT need bleeding edge tech to play modern games, this is 2009 not 1999

 

just four words... Grand Theft Auto Four

or another two... Assasin's Creed

or another one... Crysis

 

i could pull more words out of my ass aswell, but cba...

 

Did I say play on max settings? No.

 

And GTA4 is a poor example and you know it (and if you don't then frankly you are too uneducated to be involded with this topic). As even a top of the line box struggles with it. Poor coding <> a fair benchmark.

[Mamoulian War]

You are saying the above example can not play modern games? You do NOT need bleeding edge tech to play modern games, this is 2009 not 1999

 

just four words... Grand Theft Auto Four

or another two... Assasin's Creed

or another one... Crysis

 

i could pull more words out of my ass aswell, but cba...

 

Did I say play on max settings? No.

 

And GTA4 is a poor example and you know it (and if you don't then frankly you are too uneducated to be involded with this topic). As even a top of the line box struggles with it. Poor coding <> a fair benchmark.

 

Poor coding of ports is a plague of modern PC gaming, so it is a correct example here and you said...

 

 

You are saying the above example can not play modern games? You do NOT need bleeding edge tech to play modern games, this is 2009 not 1999

 

As far as my box its a AMD X2 5200+ w/ a 8800GT video card with 2gig RAM. Look up those prices and I play everything to max to near max levels. *shrugs*

 

With that said you make it sound like building your own box is some massive task, it a lot easier then most people think. But yes they do buy mostly premade systems, all one needs to do in that case is upgrade the video card and most of todays systems out of the box have a good CPU and ram to play games. Assuming you didn't buy a bottom level e-machine level of such box.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[Rhomal]

Luls i was just pointing 3 PC games which you cannot play at high setting at the day of the release with a PC for $600...

 

Since I don't own a laptop I can't tell you. However if I bought a laptop for gaming I would thus get one geared for that. However most PC gamers have boxes not laptops so your point is moot. As for the games you listed, again NO ONE can play GTA4 on a PC with everything maxed out and his it run smoothly. Get that though your head. It is BUGGY so that argument of your is moot at well. As for the others I am talking about current tech not back then this or that. Anyone can look back in time, cherry pick certain variables then bring them to the current time frame and 'prove' a point.

 

Clearly you are tossing everything and the sink at the wall hoping something sticks in your convoluted argument. *shrugs*

[Hurlshort]

It seems like folks are assuming if you say "consoles are good" it means you are saying "PC's are dead"

 

It IS possible to enjoy both people.

[Rhomal]

Poor coding of ports is a plague of modern PC gaming, so it is a correct example here and you said...

 

 

You are saying the above example can not play modern games? You do NOT need bleeding edge tech to play modern games, this is 2009 not 1999

 

As far as my box its a AMD X2 5200+ w/ a 8800GT video card with 2gig RAM. Look up those prices and I play everything to max to near max levels. *shrugs*

 

With that said you make it sound like building your own box is some massive task, it a lot easier then most people think. But yes they do buy mostly premade systems, all one needs to do in that case is upgrade the video card and most of todays systems out of the box have a good CPU and ram to play games. Assuming you didn't buy a bottom level e-machine level of such box.

 

Yet you make some leaps and assumptions to what I said (or didn't say). That aside buggy ports is another matter entirely. Again you are mix and matching the topics and tossing anything and everything into it to try to make some point which I think is lost to everyone but yourself. heh

[Rhomal]

To finish off this topic and wash my hands of it as its clearly going no where fast;

 

Sony is considering killing off the PS3 according to various tech site reports I have read such as on the inquirer. And if I recall the xbox is still a money sink hole for MS, has been in the red since its release. The problem with consoles is the business plan of selling the hardware at a loss but make up for it in games. The problem with that plan is you need to sell a LOT of games. And unless you have a few 'killer games' at once it's going to be tough to make money as sony realizes and, eventually MS, will come around to see as well unless things change on a core level. With the economy as it is it will be interesting if that speeds up the process of these folks exiting the console market.

 

Frankly 12 months from now it wouldn't surprise me if sony is either out of the console market or at least made massive cut backs to its PS3 division and MS rethinking its xbox strat making cuts or/and reorginizing. While not a big fan I think nintendo will be the only one to come out of this more or less intact.

 

Unless they are having issues as well and simply better and keeping the lid on it then the others but I have a feeling they are in a good position and know it. Thus are taking a subtle war of attrition approach.. simply wait and let the other guys finally cave in and then swoop in and scoop up the market share left by the void. If they play their cards right and the insider reports are correct, I can see the wii becoming the dominant console by the end of the year by a solid majority of market share.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Rhomal

[Mamoulian War]

It seems like folks are assuming if you say "consoles are good" it means you are saying "PC's are dead"

 

It IS possible to enjoy both people.

 

Yes, looks to me same way...

[Morgoth]

The 360 will always be the leading platform for your typical AAA game, so the PC will consequently be a port. And that's what I'm afraid we have to live for another 5 years or more: Games that always play similarly, and look similarly thanks to the focus on consoles. This sucks.

That's why I still continue to support Bioware (Dragon Age), Blizzard and Valve.

[Mamoulian War]

To finish off this topic and wash my hands of it as its clearly going no where fast;

 

Sony is considering killing off the PS3 according to various tech site reports I have read such as on the inquirer.

 

Seriously dont think that will happen... the only reason why PS3 and japanese stuff is in red numbers is because value of Yen is to high...

 

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/01...nt-consoles.ars

 

the most interesting excerpt from article:

 

The game division, all things considered, did moderately well for Sony. Sales dropped by about a third year-over-year, but the group managed to stay above water, bringing in a profit of

Edited February 2, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[ShadySands]

...biggest japanese milking franchise...

 

[Hurlshort]

The 360 will always be the leading platform for your typical AAA game, so the PC will consequently be a port. And that's what I'm afraid we have to live for another 5 years or more: Games that always play similarly, and look similarly thanks to the focus on consoles. This sucks.

That's why I still continue to support Bioware (Dragon Age), Blizzard and Valve.

 

But how will a new generation change the way games play?

[Rostere]

I make a policy of not buying console to PC ports. I can't really see how I've missed much, but then I'm not much of a fan of action games, probably the only genre with worth- to- mention console- exclusives.

 

Ah ok, I own the SH games (buggy ports, good games) for PC but that's about it.

[alanschu]

How would removing graphics APIs make programming graphics simpler?

 

It won't.

 

It is the next logical step mind.

 

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

Someone said in this thread (MOrgoth?) that the removal of APIs will make coding easier.

[Bokishi]

And GTA4 is a poor example and you know it (and if you don't then frankly you are too uneducated to be involded with this topic). As even a top of the line box struggles with it. Poor coding <> a fair benchmark.

 

Just cuz current machines can't max it out, doesn't mean poor coding. It's just waiting for cards with 1.5-2GB RAM to finish it off. Don't mistake future proofing with bad coding. The Xbox 360 does not play it at the maximum PC settings believe it or not and it's sliders are actually set in the 15's and 20's. GTA 4 runs really smooth for me @ 2560 res with everything set to very high and sliders set on slightly above xbox 360 settings.

[crakkie]

How would removing graphics APIs make programming graphics simpler?

 

It won't.

 

It is the next logical step mind.

 

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

Someone said in this thread (MOrgoth?) that the removal of APIs will make coding easier.

It won't make it easier. It will make coding harder, since you will be starting from scratch instead of implementing the well-documented Directx API. But it will open up more opportunities. Renderers will be written from scratch using whatever approach the developer wishes and accelerated by multicore, general-purpose graphics processors like Intel's "Larrabee".

 

More from Mr. Sweeney here: linkeroo

[Pidesco]

ASUS P5L-VM 1394

Pentium 4 631 3.0 GHz

2 GB Kingston DDRII667 RAM

 

The above was 190

[alanschu]

How would removing graphics APIs make programming graphics simpler?

 

It won't.

 

It is the next logical step mind.

 

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

Someone said in this thread (MOrgoth?) that the removal of APIs will make coding easier.

It won't make it easier. It will make coding harder, since you will be starting from scratch instead of implementing the well-documented Directx API. But it will open up more opportunities. Renderers will be written from scratch using whatever approach the developer wishes and accelerated by multicore, general-purpose graphics processors like Intel's "Larrabee".

 

More from Mr. Sweeney here: linkeroo

 

 

Okay this all makes muuuuch more sense.

 

I agree that the lower level you go the more power you get, but it's never easier haha.

[Humodour]

It seems like folks are assuming if you say "consoles are good" it means you are saying "PC's are dead"

 

It IS possible to enjoy both people.

 

Then go back and read the thread. There are real, tangible reasons why what's good for the PC can be what's bad for consoles (though obviously right now that's not true).

 

Though I agree, it's not simply a zero sum game.

[Rhomal]

And GTA4 is a poor example and you know it (and if you don't then frankly you are too uneducated to be involded with this topic). As even a top of the line box struggles with it. Poor coding <> a fair benchmark.

 

Just cuz current machines can't max it out, doesn't mean poor coding. It's just waiting for cards with 1.5-2GB RAM to finish it off. Don't mistake future proofing with bad coding. The Xbox 360 does not play it at the maximum PC settings believe it or not and it's sliders are actually set in the 15's and 20's. GTA 4 runs really smooth for me @ 2560 res with everything set to very high and sliders set on slightly above xbox 360 settings.

 

Have you played the port?

 

Clearly not, unless you consider objects stop rendering after 40 mins of playing and memory leaks 'good' coding.

[Moatilliatta]

Is that with or without the patch? (they have made one, right?)

 

Bok is partly right though, since they do allow people to change all sorts of awesome setting in GTA4 PC.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Moatilliatta

[Rhomal]

Is that with or without the patch? (they have made one, right?)

 

Bok is partly right though, since they do allow people to change all sorts of awesome setting in GTA4 PC.

 

First patch fixed nothing for me (and many other according to GTA forums), have not tried the second that was just released as I need to reinstall it.

 

And they nerf the settings, you actually have to hack a file or two to 'unlock' the ability to fully change the settings. Otherwise it decides upon your hardware what it thinks the optimal setting are and what is too high for you. Ironically I have seen many reports that folks stay the game plays better on the higher settings after they unlock them... go figure.

[Bokishi]

And GTA4 is a poor example and you know it (and if you don't then frankly you are too uneducated to be involded with this topic). As even a top of the line box struggles with it. Poor coding <> a fair benchmark.

 

Just cuz current machines can't max it out, doesn't mean poor coding. It's just waiting for cards with 1.5-2GB RAM to finish it off. Don't mistake future proofing with bad coding. The Xbox 360 does not play it at the maximum PC settings believe it or not and it's sliders are actually set in the 15's and 20's. GTA 4 runs really smooth for me @ 2560 res with everything set to very high and sliders set on slightly above xbox 360 settings.

 

Have you played the port?

 

Clearly not, unless you consider objects stop rendering after 40 mins of playing and memory leaks 'good' coding.

 

Read my post again bro

[Mamoulian War]

ASUS P5L-VM 1394

Pentium 4 631 3.0 GHz

2 GB Kingston DDRII667 RAM

 

The above was 190€. Note that I sold my previous components for 120€

 

 

Gaiward 9800GT 512Mb ----> 112€. At some point I will sell my previous graphics card.

 

 

Onboard Audio ----> Free :D

Samsung 80GB 7200RPM ----> Christmas gift, although I can't imagine it costing above 50€, at the time.

Samsung 320GB SATA2 ----> 43€

Samsung 17" 795MB ----> Around 150€

Gamepad XFX XGear Dual Reflex ----> 14€, I think. It's better than any official console gamepad.

 

That's 560€ before taking away the money I got for selling my old components. Note that this money is spread out over several years.

 

With the above PC, the only game that I haven't been able to max out has been Crysis.

 

Yes we all know that you are able to do that, but the difference between you and me (and anyone on this forum) and a random PC buyer, ist that the random PC buyer have absolutely no clue about what all these numbers and letters means, except the numbers right before €.

 

One of the best posts summing all that up is this one from bioware off topic forums:

 

Quote: Posted 02/01/09 07:26 (GMT) by danielkx

 

Good points, however, one could always call a local computer store and they may be able to help them.

 

 

You can do that, sure, but the entire dialogue is would still be incommensurable. The problem isn't that most casual buyers are unsure of how to decide between products (though obviously this is a concern) but rather that they don't know what those products are what they exist to do.

 

I can debate the merits of a 9800GTX versus a Radeon 4870 X2 with someone qualified, but a casual buyer will probably ask, "what do I need a video card for and what does it mean for it to have more memory?"

 

That's the difference in understand that I am trying to highlight. Most of use who are hardcore into PC gaming are very well aware of what we need to play games; but those who aren't, and aren't really familiar with the intricacies of computers to begin with, knowing what the right things to talk about are really daunting.

 

Quote: Also, people could actually learn about computers and components, it isnt as daunting as you make it out to be. But that isnt what people want, they prefer to have a pre built inferior system (inferior meaning more than just the processing power) so they do not have to think...

 

 

Learning about computers and their components isn't that easy, because people are really, seriously blindingly ignorant. Lots of things that we'd take for granted are things that people have no idea about, like the difference between physical and virtual memory, or what the difference is between a single and dual processor, or what exactly memory does.

 

All of this stuff is pretty complex, especially taking into account that people don't have any technical background at all. You'd have to start from the lowest possible level of complexity and teach people from the ground up. It's like learning elementary biology - sure, people could do it, but it's kinda hard, it takes time and effort, and most people don't really care.

 

I have been making my living with selling PCs few years ago, and after 1st week at my work i rather stopped to count people which answered to the question "What will be the primary use of your PC?" with "All I want is something simple, i do not need anything powerful, it's just for games." And after i told them that gaming is one of the most demanding applications for PCs, and recommended them gaming rig for 500EUR instead of they dream rig for 300EUR with Celeron, intel IGP, 256MB RAM and 40GB HDD, they just looked at me with the "Another clown who wants to steal 200EUR from us" look...

 

When you ask random PC owner what is the difference between ATI and Nvidia, they end up with same look as I end up everytime, when I go shopping with my girlfriend and she ask me "what you think is better for me, that Margaret Astor mascara or that Rimmel one over there?"

 

I hope you now understand, that all that random buyers at BestBuy who want to play games, when they see Xbox 360 for 200USD, PS3 for 400USD and PC for 500USD go home with the Xbox 360 and dont give a damn about that PCs for 500USD can play all current PC games on maxed out settings...

Edited February 3, 2009 by Mamoulian War