Mass Effect 2 to appear in GDC

[Wrath of Dagon]

I just have a hard time taking Wrath of Dagon's posts very seriously. It just seems like all the flaws you are pointing out existed on some level in KotOR, a game you seem to put on a pedestal.

I have a hard time taking your posts very seriously, since you don't give any reasons for your statements, and neither does Nightshape for that matter. Yes, every game has flaws, even KOTOR, so what? I'm telling you why ME is a bad game, and has some flaws is not enough of a reason. And which flaws does KOTOR have exactly that are similar to ME? You never say, just make general and ambiguous statements.

 

So far as bias, where's my bias coming from? From disagreeing with your opinion? I can tell you my opinions are very objective. I thought KOTOR was great, Jade Empire was a noticeable step down in quality, and ME was a complete disaster as an RPG, and I can give you reasons for each of those statements. Where's the bias in that?

[Pidesco]

I think KOTOR's flaws have been pointed out to you by me, and by other posters on several occasions.

 

Among those were the writing, the very limited scope of the planets, the stupid morality system where you are either a saint or a force bully, the combat, and the general lack of challenge.

 

Mass Effect is KOTOR with better combat and more mindless filler.

[Hurlshort]

I don't really need to give reasons for my statements, I'm not picking the game apart. I enjoyed KotOR, JE, and ME. They all told an interesting story and had interesting characters. Sure, there were gameplay difference. It make sense to me that some people like one in that regard and dislike another. But seriously, the story telling in these games is all fairly similar, the characters are almost carbon copies of one another. All that is changed is the setting.

 

So if you disliked the setting or the gameplay, I'd totally understand. But your crusade against the story doesn't wash with your love of KotOR.

[Nightshape]

I just have a hard time taking Wrath of Dagon's posts very seriously. It just seems like all the flaws you are pointing out existed on some level in KotOR, a game you seem to put on a pedestal.

I have a hard time taking your posts very seriously, since you don't give any reasons for your statements, and neither does Nightshape for that matter. Yes, every game has flaws, even KOTOR, so what? I'm telling you why ME is a bad game, and has some flaws is not enough of a reason. And which flaws does KOTOR have exactly that are similar to ME? You never say, just make general and ambiguous statements.

 

So far as bias, where's my bias coming from? From disagreeing with your opinion? I can tell you my opinions are very objective. I thought KOTOR was great, Jade Empire was a noticeable step down in quality, and ME was a complete disaster as an RPG, and I can give you reasons for each of those statements. Where's the bias in that?

 

Please give me some of your objective opinions, because I've been asking for several pages.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I think KOTOR's flaws have been pointed out to you by me, and by other posters on several occasions.

 

Among those were the writing, the very limited scope of the planets, the stupid morality system where you are either a saint or a force bully, the combat, and the general lack of challenge.

 

Mass Effect is KOTOR with better combat and more mindless filler.

None of which I agree with. ME is not KOTOR as it has none of KOTOR's good attributes. If you want to prove ME is as good as KOTOR, you have to show positive attributes in ME which are as good or better than KOTOR. The fact that you don't like KOTOR doesn't make ME any better; specifically you have to show how ME's level design is superior to KOTOR, since that is what we're discussing. And yes, I agree ME had better combat and was mindless filler otherwise.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't really need to give reasons for my statements, I'm not picking the game apart. I enjoyed KotOR, JE, and ME. They all told an interesting story and had interesting characters. Sure, there were gameplay difference. It make sense to me that some people like one in that regard and dislike another. But seriously, the story telling in these games is all fairly similar, the characters are almost carbon copies of one another. All that is changed is the setting.

 

So if you disliked the setting or the gameplay, I'd totally understand. But your crusade against the story doesn't wash with your love of KotOR.

No, you don't, thanks for your opinion, but then you really shouldn't be arguing, should you? Also, if JE and ME ripped off KOTOR in some respects, how does that count against KOTOR? It should only count against later games. You're saying because you like all 3 and I don't my opinion is somehow suspect, even though you refuse to explain your reasoning, while I explained mine.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Please give me some of your objective opinions, because I've been asking for several pages.

Which objective opinions? What have I been posting through this whole thread? What did you ask, I didn't see anything in your posts that looked like a question.

[Pidesco]

None of which I agree with. ME is not KOTOR as it has none of KOTOR's good attributes. If you want to prove ME is as good as KOTOR, you have to show positive attributes in ME which are as good or better than KOTOR. The fact that you don't like KOTOR doesn't make ME any better; specifically you have to show how ME's level design is superior to KOTOR, since that is what we're discussing. And yes, I agree ME had better combat and was mindless filler otherwise.

 

I don't hate KOTOR, I just think it was ok, with some noticeable flaws. Just like Mass Effect.

 

Regarding level design, ME is almost the same as KOTOR with levels consisting of a peaceful zone and a combat zone attached to each other. The main difference in level design is that, given the nature of the combat, the level design in ME affects the way combat develops, while in KOTOR it really just provides ground to stand on while fighting.

 

As for art design, it's generic sci-fi stuff in ME and generic Star Wars in KOTOR so I really don't see what you're on about. I guess ME is better because it uses a snazzier engine which allows for more detailed textures and models. In KOTOR, I liked the Wookie planet with the huge tree trunks.

[Hurlshort]

I have a good question. Does anyone agree with Wrath of Dagon about KotOR being great and ME being trash?

 

It just seems like everyone on this board except for him is either a fan of both games, or disliked both games. I just haven't seen many other split on it.

[Llyranor]

Hurlshot, you need to remember that "Carth was an interesting, well developed character".

[Pidesco]

Off topic: This reminded me of some work my mom did in advertising many, many years ago. She once organized a consumer test with blind testing to evaluate Portuguese beer drinkers. In Portugal there are two big beer brands, and almost everyone either drinks one or the other, which they swear by religiously. Well, as everyone can imagine, what the testing showed was that no one could identify their favorite beer by tasting only. No one. It was all exclusively about brand recognition.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't hate KOTOR, I just think it was ok, with some noticeable flaws. Just like Mass Effect.

 

Regarding level design, ME is almost the same as KOTOR with levels consisting of a peaceful zone and a combat zone attached to each other. The main difference in level design is that, given the nature of the combat, the level design in ME affects the way combat develops, while in KOTOR it really just provides ground to stand on while fighting.

 

As for art design, it's generic sci-fi stuff in ME and generic Star Wars in KOTOR so I really don't see what you're on about. I guess ME is better because it uses a snazzier engine which allows for more detailed textures and models. In KOTOR, I liked the Wookie planet with the huge tree trunks.

No, Citadel is all peaceful, except for main story related combat. Noveria has a very small and boring peaceful zone, the rest is all combat. All other planets are linear combat only. Level design in ME generally consists of a corridor, a door, followed by another corridor, another door, and then yet another corridor, with one more door, culminating in a room with some crates for cover where you kill a few enemies, usually the same Geth over and over. Each KOTOR planet had its own theme, its own character, its own situation you had to deal with, and its own story. You had exploration, quests, combat, dungeons, and dialog which was actually meaningful. All of these elements were reduced to laughable proportions in ME. "Turn off a valve and replace a battery, and voila, you're done with all the quests on Feros. But don't forget to pick up some files while you're in the corporate building."

 

Also you can claim just about anything is generic. The art in KOTOR went with the theme and situation on each planet, Tatooine looked like a desert planet, Sand People camp looked like a Nomad camp, etc. I could go through each ME planet and describe to you why the art on each one sucked, but I've done it before and I don't think anyone is that interested.

[Llyranor]

KOTOR felt more polished than ME, in any case. Or rather, ME felt like it has some elements that felt completely neglected.

 

KOTOR's story was laughable, and I suppose one's enjoyment of it depends on whether one thought the plot twist was good storytelling or not. There were some elements of ME's story that I enjoyed, though it did have some annoying Bioware trademarks for the rest of it. My opinion of both games keeps going down over time; they just lack the quality to make them timeless in my eye. I probably just dislike KOTOR more because of the time it's had to feed my hatred, like a fine wine. I'd have said I pretty much enjoyed ME in spite of its glaring flaws when I finished it. By now, I probably still like it enough that I'd play the sequel, but that's been demoted to rental status already.

 

They're both pieces of crap. KOTOR1 just had more time to ferment its crap. ME is freshly squeezed crap.

 

ME also lacked interesting, well developed characters like Carth. If there was one flaw I'd kill Bioware for, it's not including Carth in ME. What were they thinking?

[alanschu]

I don't really need to give reasons for my statements, I'm not picking the game apart. I enjoyed KotOR, JE, and ME. They all told an interesting story and had interesting characters. Sure, there were gameplay difference. It make sense to me that some people like one in that regard and dislike another. But seriously, the story telling in these games is all fairly similar, the characters are almost carbon copies of one another. All that is changed is the setting.

 

So if you disliked the setting or the gameplay, I'd totally understand. But your crusade against the story doesn't wash with your love of KotOR.

No, you don't, thanks for your opinion, but then you really shouldn't be arguing, should you? Also, if JE and ME ripped off KOTOR in some respects, how does that count against KOTOR? It should only count against later games. You're saying because you like all 3 and I don't my opinion is somehow suspect, even though you refuse to explain your reasoning, while I explained mine.

 

 

It's not a knock against KOTOR. It's a knock against your credibility when you bash ME for the same things that KOTOR has. Such as the big, open dreary world of the topside of Taris, which reminds me an awful lot of the Presidium (only with interrupting loading screens).

 

Unless you are saying you don't like ME because it's too similar to KOTOR.

[Llyranor]

alanschu, do you deny that ME lacked interesting, well developed character like Carth Onasi from KOTOR1? Yes or no?

[alanschu]

Hurlshot, you need to remember that "Carth was an interesting, well developed character".

 

 

That is true! As is Kaiden Alenko!

 

 

For some reason he always reminded me of Carth hehehe.

Edited January 12, 2009 by alanschu

[Hurlshort]

Actually, I don't see any of these games as deserving of multiple play-throughs. They have pretty linear stories, and whether you choose good or bad or in between, it seems like the most boring thing in the world to go through all those same fight scenes again.

 

I love playing them once, and then trading them in for something else. They aren't sandbox games and I never regret getting rid of them.

[Gromnir]

to: manmonkeyhybrid

 

is obvious you not understand "hyperbole." quote burke on evil as legitimizing why you post at codex and elsewhere... but at same time saying that GROMNIR is the one inflating importance o' codex?

 

...

 

alternate quote

 

 

[Calax]

No, Citadel is all peaceful, except for main story related combat. Noveria has a very small and boring peaceful zone, the rest is all combat. All other planets are linear combat only. Level design in ME generally consists of a corridor, a door, followed by another corridor, another door, and then yet another corridor, with one more door, culminating in a room with some crates for cover where you kill a few enemies, usually the same Geth over and over. Each KOTOR planet had its own theme, its own character, its own situation you had to deal with, and its own story. You had exploration, quests, combat, dungeons, and dialog which was actually meaningful. All of these elements were reduced to laughable proportions in ME. "Turn off a valve and replace a battery, and voila, you're done with all the quests on Feros. But don't forget to pick up some files while you're in the corporate building."

 

Also you can claim just about anything is generic. The art in KOTOR went with the theme and situation on each planet, Tatooine looked like a desert planet, Sand People camp looked like a Nomad camp, etc. I could go through each ME planet and describe to you why the art on each one sucked, but I've done it before and I don't think anyone is that interested.

Citadel=Dantoinne

Noveria=Tattoine

 

I mean seriously the level design for the worlds in Kotor and the story planets in ME were very similar. Slightly different atomosphere but ultimatly their design and style were very similar. The thing that makes them feel different is the fact that in ME terrain actually effected your combat while in kotor you just kinda stood there. Each Story planet in ME had it's own themes and sets of problems just like KotOR. You laugh at Feros for having a simple gathering quest while you're out and about. Seriously? That's a staple of every RPG ever MADE. I mean if you cut KotOR 2's story planets down to the same # that's in ME you'd probably find all of HK's parts on one planet.

 

And don't cry about the same geth over and over, if I have to deal with one more sith soldier I will rip Revans eyes out and replace them with lazers. I have yet to see a choice in morality that even approaches how ME did the end of Feros. Or anything as complicated as getting a pass to go outside on Noveria.

 

The reason nobody takes you seriously is that you have yet to say anything of substance about ME that wasn't mirrored in KotOR. You also have yet to say anything that was better in KotOR. Sure you say "BUT the LEVEL DESIGN!!" but the level design in each game was about the same, maybe a bit better in ME, it's just that in KotOR because of the way that the combat occurred you didn't notice the drawbacks as much as in ME. Also ME's zones generally didn't have you running hither and yon to complete quests, except in the Citadel and there there were so many ways to get around you didn't have to do much running. In KotOR I remember being frustrated because you go halfway across a planet four times to complete one quest. In ME you just zipped out in one fell swoop and completed all the quests.

[Wrath of Dagon]

ME did have a degenerate version of Carth, which was Kaiden, just like Quasar or whatever that game was called was a degenerate version of Pazaak, just like ME is a degenerate version of KOTOR, which is what I think makes it so hard for people to understand the difference between KOTOR and ME.

[kirottu]

ME also lacked interesting, well developed characters like Carth. If there was one flaw I'd kill Bioware for, it's not including Carth in ME. What were they thinking?

 

Every rpg... no, every game should have it

[Pidesco]

ME did have a degenerate version of Carth, which was Kaiden, just like Quasar or whatever that game was called was a degenerate version of Pazaak, just like ME is a degenerate version of KOTOR, which is what I think makes it so hard for people to understand the difference between KOTOR and ME.

 

And KOTOR was a degenerate version of BG2 in more ways than one.

[Gromnir]

am gonna suggest that carth were the "degenerate" form o' kaiden. the archetype upon which both is built is tediously familiar, but carth... carth were kinda extreme with the mood swings. Gromnir kept wishing for a dialogue option that would allow us to force feed carth lithium. carth were not our favorite kotor jnpc... woulda preferred kaiden.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's not a knock against KOTOR. It's a knock against your credibility when you bash ME for the same things that KOTOR has. Such as the big, open dreary world of the topside of Taris, which reminds me an awful lot of the Presidium (only with interrupting loading screens).

 

Unless you are saying you don't like ME because it's too similar to KOTOR.

ME ripping off KOTOR is not to its credit. Top side of Taris went along with it's theme, rich live on higher level, the lower levels get increasingly poorer and more dangerous. Sure, a lot was left to the imagination due to graphic limitations, but you could see some beautiful vistas of the city with spaceships and so on. Plus it set up the contrast with the sewers and the squalor of the refugee camp. And at least there was lots of interesting stuff to do on Taris, unlike the Citadel.

[Wrath of Dagon]

You laugh at Feros for having a simple gathering quest while you're out and about. Seriously? That's a staple of every RPG ever MADE.

That's all it had though.

And don't cry about the same geth over and over, if I have to deal with one more sith soldier I will rip Revans eyes out and replace them with lazers. I have yet to see a choice in morality that even approaches how ME did the end of Feros. Or anything as complicated as getting a pass to go outside on Noveria.

You can't be serious. Kill someone for no reason or don't kill them is a big advancement in morality? Getting a pass was so complicated? (and already done in KOTOR) And at least Sith you could talk to, the Geth are just glorified toasters with 0 personality.

 

Also ME's zones generally didn't have you running hither and yon to complete quests, except in the Citadel and there there were so many ways to get around you didn't have to do much running. In KotOR I remember being frustrated because you go halfway across a planet four times to complete one quest. In ME you just zipped out in one fell swoop and completed all the quests.

You know why? ME quests are one dialog, at most two. If you're frustrated doing real quests, no wonder you like ME better, plus there were no quests in KOTOR like you describe.