Mass Effect 2 to appear in GDC

[Llyranor]

Also, KOTOR had interesting, well developed characters. Or one at least, anyway.

[Wrath of Dagon]

ME did have a degenerate version of Carth, which was Kaiden, just like Quasar or whatever that game was called was a degenerate version of Pazaak, just like ME is a degenerate version of KOTOR, which is what I think makes it so hard for people to understand the difference between KOTOR and ME.

 

And KOTOR was a degenerate version of BG2 in more ways than one.

You may be right, never played BG2. But so what, I never claimed KOTOR was the same or better than BG2.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Also, KOTOR had interesting, well developed characters. Or one at least, anyway.

If you think parrotting that endlessly makes you look intelligent, you're very much mistaken. What are you, 12 or so?

[Wrath of Dagon]

am gonna suggest that carth were the "degenerate" form o' kaiden. the archetype upon which both is built is tediously familiar, but carth... carth were kinda extreme with the mood swings. Gromnir kept wishing for a dialogue option that would allow us to force feed carth lithium. carth were not our favorite kotor jnpc... woulda preferred kaiden.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So, Carth was a very damaged human being, anything against portraying that in a game? The problem with Kaiden is he's so underdeveloped, he tells you his sob story (which is pretty dumb btw) and that's it.

[Tigranes]

Don't fight, children, it makes mommy cry.

 

I'd like to remember my own experiences with KOTOR1 and jump in, but sadly, my blinding hatred of Carth drowned out the rest. NO SHUT UP CARTH GO BACK TO YOUR NURSERY YOU VEGETABLE

[Hurlshort]

The difference between Carth and Kaiden is Carth was forced on you for quite a bit of the game, and Kaiden was killable. Point set match to ME.

[Llyranor]

Also, KOTOR had interesting, well developed characters. Or one at least, anyway.

If you think parrotting that endlessly makes you look intelligent, you're very much mistaken. What are you, 12 or so?

Still stating the facts, my Jedi friend. Or are you denying that?

[Gromnir]

am gonna suggest that carth were the "degenerate" form o' kaiden. the archetype upon which both is built is tediously familiar, but carth... carth were kinda extreme with the mood swings. Gromnir kept wishing for a dialogue option that would allow us to force feed carth lithium. carth were not our favorite kotor jnpc... woulda preferred kaiden.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So, Carth was a very damaged human being, anything against portraying that in a game? The problem with Kaiden is he's so underdeveloped, he tells you his sob story (which is pretty dumb btw) and that's it.

 

over-the-top is rarely a positive... 'less you is going for camp value. carth were over-the-top.

 

 

furthermore, kaiden were integral to heroic sacrifice that not exist any place in kotor. the Player actually had to give something up in me. in bg2 there is one point in game in which you gotta sacrifice an ability point. that were a big moment for bioware and Gromnir is saddened that they not made more use of such stuff. Gromnir had played the entire game o' me with ashley and kaiden as main party mates (save for jnpc specific side-quest,) so choice 'tween kaiden and ashley were occurring not simply on story level, but at gameplay level... actual tangible impact o' choice were potential felt by player. furthermore, for kaiden or ashley, there is no happy ending. in kotor there is the traditional crpg happy ending... heck, the kotor developers even pulled the imagery right out o' the episode iv ending. such an ending were appropriate for kotor, but such stuff is easy and somewhat boring.

 

 

carth were developed by gaider to please female gamers... he got lots o' feedback from lady s' site during development.

 

...

 

personally, if Gromnir were a woman we would be mighty offended by carth and how gaider/bioware viewed the feminine gender. the terrible thing is that most o' the estrogen feedback regarding carth were positive. sure, we heard the "whiner" complaints frequent enough, but carth were, for the most part, well received by women gamers.

 

*shudder*

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 12, 2009 by Gromnir

[Aristes]

 

"furthermore, kaiden were integral to heroic sacrifice that not exist any place in kotor. the Player actually had to give something up in me. in bg2 there is one point in game in which you gotta sacrifice an ability point. that were a big moment for bioware and Gromnir is saddened that they not made more use of such stuff. Gromnir had played the entire game o' me with ashley and kaiden as main party mates (save for jnpc specific side-quest,) so choice 'tween kaiden and ashley were occurring not simply on story level, but at gameplay level... actual tangible impact o' choice were potential felt by player. furthermore, for kaiden or ashley, there is no happy ending."

 

 

This, more than anything I've read or heard so far, piques my interest in Mass Effect.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Aristes

[Llyranor]

Well, actually, Gromnie spoiled all of it. That's pretty much the choice.

[Aristes]

I don't care. I'm just happy to play a game that actually requires the PC to make a real sacrifice damn it! hahaha And the lame end game sacrifice in

Fallout 3

doesn't count!

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Also, KOTOR had interesting, well developed characters. Or one at least, anyway.

If you think parrotting that endlessly makes you look intelligent, you're very much mistaken. What are you, 12 or so?

 

I think you're completely missing the point.

[Gromnir]

Well, actually, Gromnie spoiled all of it. That's pretty much the choice.

 

 

our apologies. honest. will try to edit with spoiler feature momentarily.

 

please note that Gromnir cannot edit the portion o' aristes post copied from Gromnir's

 

again, our apologies for punting the pooch on this one.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Gromnir

[Aristes]

Oh, I read your post and edited mine posthaste.

[Calax]

You laugh at Feros for having a simple gathering quest while you're out and about. Seriously? That's a staple of every RPG ever MADE.

That's all it had though.

And don't cry about the same geth over and over, if I have to deal with one more sith soldier I will rip Revans eyes out and replace them with lazers. I have yet to see a choice in morality that even approaches how ME did the end of Feros. Or anything as complicated as getting a pass to go outside on Noveria.

You can't be serious. Kill someone for no reason or don't kill them is a big advancement in morality? Getting a pass was so complicated? (and already done in KOTOR) And at least Sith you could talk to, the Geth are just glorified toasters with 0 personality.

 

Also ME's zones generally didn't have you running hither and yon to complete quests, except in the Citadel and there there were so many ways to get around you didn't have to do much running. In KotOR I remember being frustrated because you go halfway across a planet four times to complete one quest. In ME you just zipped out in one fell swoop and completed all the quests.

You know why? ME quests are one dialog, at most two. If you're frustrated doing real quests, no wonder you like ME better, plus there were no quests in KOTOR like you describe.

I don't know if my memory is rusty but I remember on Kashyyyk having to go up and down and up and down and then to Mannan then back then up and down. I don't like having to visit the same place a dozen times because quests that require you to return to the Quest Giver to receive the next part. As to Feros, It wasn't kill somebody for no reason, it was more about weather or not they were redeemable. I mean the people are shooting at you and you have to decide to take the easy way and just mop up, or try to nade as many as you can.

 

I also don't remember in Kotor being able to have both parties that will give you a pass killed by each other. And what quest in Kotor had dialoge more than "Oh my baby is kidnapped save them" 1 fight and some trekking later "Yay you saved my baby, I will give you all my possessions!" to which you either take the stuff and leave for a Lightside bonus or you say keep the stuff for a higher bonus. Oh wait there was also the quest where you are sent to kill/deal with a bandit or other raiders (tuskens) and you get allowed to enter an encampment and talk the guy into stopping his banditry for lightside points. Every quest in Kotor had a copy in ME, the biggest difference is that in ME you didn't have to wander all over the place to finish all your quests, you could get em in one quick movement through the area.

 

As to sith you could talk to, sure you could talk to them. But they were always the exact same guy doing the exact same thing. At least with the geth they dropped the pretense of individuals. Hell, KotOR didn't even do things first, I'd give that to Baldurs Gate.

 

As to Carth, yes he was a flawed character. But the problem is that he kept harping on his flaws, a good character who was developed better would have by the end of the adventure, gotten over the fact that he was betrayed and tried to do somthing. Carth just kinda sat in the exact same spot as when you first met him in terms of personality. Heck all your companions in KotOR 1 showed little development over the course of the game. They all stayed as their archtype and never grew beyond the basic archtype. At least Wrex was more than just a living version of HK, He got angry and he actually showed some development when you have to blow up the genophage base. I'm not saying that ALL of the mass effect NPC's went through character growth, but at least a few showed that they could do more than just stand around and say the same things. Mission was always the peppy teen, Juhani was always haunted by her darkside and her failures, Bastila was always trying to be the leaders, Carth was just a dolt who got betrayed once and thus hated anyone who he relied upon, Hanharr was the faithful protector, HK the slaughter bot, T3=R2, Jolee was always the grampa. Not one of them had the depth that wrex had. Even malak was nothing more than a stock supervillian who you had to defeat. At least Saren started out trying to save the world and could be convinced to change his path. And don't get me started on Bandon/ the Admiral, those two had as much personality as my carpet.

 

All in all ME and KotOR are very similar games. ME however had a heck of alot more depth in it's creation (probably because it was a new universe, where as with star wars you didn't have to be very innovative about how things worked because somehow Star Wars is timelocked technologically)

[Llyranor]

The problem with the ME lore was that everything was created for a specific purpose in the game, rather than just to simply expand the game's universe (starship stuff aside, which was the nice thing about those).

 

 

Rachni wiped out? LOL here are some Rachni! Krogan genophage? LOL here's an antidote WILL YOU KILL WREX OR NOT!!!!

 

[Calax]

The problem with the ME lore was that everything was created for a specific purpose in the game, rather than just to simply expand the game's universe (starship stuff aside, which was the nice thing about those).

 

 

Rachni wiped out? LOL here are some Rachni! Krogan genophage? LOL here's an antidote WILL YOU KILL WREX OR NOT!!!!

Well that works for historical events, but what about the biological component? Why would they tell you that asarii reproduce by selecting the genetic traits from the "father" that they want to pass on?

[Llyranor]

Asari are freaking Drow. Bioware wanted to make a whole female LOL THEY'RE NOT REALLY FEMALE, THEY JUST LOOK LIKE IT, SO YOU CAN ROMANCE THEM EVEN IF YOU'RE A FEMALE PC LMAO race to cater to the Gabrielle/Hades demographic.

 

FREAKING ASARI

 

Actually, that's one thing I'll give KOTOR. It didn't have freaking Asari.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Wrex has some good one liners, but if you talk to him he bores you to tears, almost as bad as Tali. He's completely one dimensional and a Canderous rip off, except not near as good as Canderous. The choice on Virmire is a coin toss choice (I don't mean the one with Wrex), I never really understood why people like that so much. And about being created for specific purposes, that's very true, everything feels very contrived, and the few decisions you actually make aren't organic to the story or the gameplay, they are just there because you're supposed to make decisions in an RPG, it's like they have a big sign "Make Big Decision Here!"

Edited January 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Pidesco]

Now, what the hell was so good and not one dimensional about Canderous?

[Hurlshort]

Also, KOTOR had interesting, well developed characters. Or one at least, anyway.

If you think parrotting that endlessly makes you look intelligent, you're very much mistaken. What are you, 12 or so?

 

I think you're completely missing the point.

 

How dare you accuse Llyr of having a point?!? Blasphemere!

 

Wrath of Dagon, do you understand where all your problems with ME are simply opinions, and therefore very subjective? Saying Wrex is boring isn't helping your crusade, because you aren't getting a lot of people agreeing with you. Those who do, would probably say Canderous is boring as well.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm not necessarily saying he wasn't one dimensional, but he was cool, kind of a tough, ruthless Spartan type:

CANDEROUS: ...and then we tied up all the prisoners and bashed their heads in with iron bars. (He chuckles at the memory, oblivious to the others' horrified expressions.) Ah, happy days... So, Carth, you got any good war stories?

[Llyranor]

Canderous is Mandalore, man, how could he be boring? Is Wrex Mandalore too?

 

I DIDN'T THINK SO

[Wrath of Dagon]

Wrath of Dagon, do you understand where all your problems with ME are simply opinions, and therefore very subjective? Saying Wrex is boring isn't helping your crusade, because you aren't getting a lot of people agreeing with you. Those who do, would probably say Canderous is boring as well.

No, it's a badly made game, no question about it. It's not my fault some people can't distinguish between good and bad. I'll give one more example. Wrex told you one war story, and it was really stupid. Canderous told you many war stories, and they were all pretty good, and really shed some insight on the Mandalorian war, which was an important part of the plot. Things like that happen all the time, ME has completely pointless stories and conversations, while everything in KOTOR is well thought out and fleshes out the Universe. But there's nothing I can do if someone states white is black and black is white. You for example liked the Uncharted Worlds, how is that even possible?

[Calax]

Wrex has some good one liners, but if you talk to him he bores you to tears, almost as bad as Tali. He's completely one dimensional and a Canderous rip off, except not near as good as Canderous. The choice on Virmire is a coin toss choice (I don't mean the one with Wrex), I never really understood why people like that so much. And about being created for specific purposes, that's very true, everything feels very contrived, and the few decisions you actually make aren't organic to the story or the gameplay, they are just there because you're supposed to make decisions in an RPG, it's like they have a big sign "Make Big Decision Here!"

I'm sorry but Canderous is nothing more than a token grizzled war vet. He's the anti carth in a way. Wrex starts out as a cold as ice bounty hunter, and eventually he becomes a sympathetic character because he sees the cure to his species genetic impotancy slip through his fingers. NOTHING in KotOR comes close to that.

 

The people liked that choice so much because it actually had an effect. Most choices you make only effect your morality level. This one forced you to choose which character you used/liked more (I tend like ashley more than Kaiden). Seriously, find a choice that has that much impact on gameplay in KotOR.