The future of RPGs

[Pidesco]

What RPGs came out this year?

 

Mass Effect PC

Fallout 3

Fable II

WoW: Wrath of the Lich King

The Witcher

Rise of the Argonauts

Sacred 2: Fallen Angel

NWN2: Storm of Zehir

Gothic 3: Forsaken Gods

Age of Conan

Warhammer Online

Two-Worlds

Chrono Trigger (on DS)

 

 

Can anyone else think of others? (Or add the JRPGs that I know nothing about?)

 

 

THe Witcher came out last year.

[Slowtrain]

Or if you take The Lord of the Rings and streamline it by removing all words over two syllables, it it better?

 

Was it great to begin with? No. Does shrinking it make it better? At least it doesn't waste so much of the reader's time.

 

 

SUbsitiute the novel of your choice then.

 

My point wasn't the Lord of the Rings is good. Or not. Or whatever. My point was that this current concept of improvement by reduction is assinine.

[Rhomal]

The year is almost over and I find myself pondering over the future of rpgs, the western kind to be specific. There have been quite a few rpgs this year NWN2: Storm of Zehir, Mass Effect (PC), Fable 2 and Fallout 3. While most of them were ok, I still find myself going back to Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape: Torment and the Fallouts. Those games are almost 10 years old, but I find replaying them to be more entertaining than playing through most of today's rpgs once. Baldur's Gate still has an active fanbase and modding community after 10 years. How many other single player games have that? There have been a few really good rpgs since then (Mask of the Betrayer, Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines), but there seem to be fewer and fewer with each coming year.

 

The future doesn't look too bright either. I look forward to Alpha Protocol, the Alien RPG and Dragon Age, but (western) rpgs seem to be few and far between. So I ask you, is it even viable to make a rpg like Baldur's Gate 2 in today's market with increasing production values and risks? Will the future of rpgs be first person action rpgs with some arbitrary stats tacked on?

 

From my talks with various devs (and their talks with other devs) it seems the view of the CRPG dev community in general is the 100+ hr CRPG like BG1 and Fallout is dead. With that said Fallout3 was a great CRPG big picture wise and somewhat debunked that comment. However that is a exception more then the rule IMO. I think less sandbox more linear stories are the future.

 

For the next 4-5 yrs will be slim pickings then some upstart dev is going to go to hells with this I'll show them, and put up a epic BG-like CRPG (not a 100 hrs or very sandbox like but solid none the less) as they will see a void to fill. Just as Bioware did with BG. We'll have several yrs of other devs jumping on the bandwagon be a time of some good CRPGs, then ideas will run stale and, once again, the market will implode, rinse and repeat...

 

Its a cycle, and we currently are in the downward spin, give it a few years like I said the market will jump start again.

[Maria Caliban]

@Purkake:

 

Outside Torment, and in the same time period you have singled out, how many old cRPGs did not feature the whole "save the world" or "save a world" as a story or motivation?

 

Well, BG2, Anachronox. The point is that they were trying to be original and different. Today it seems that no one takes any risks, because failure costs too much.

 

Your example of a game not about saving the world is one about saving the universe.

 

SUbsitiute the novel of your choice then.

 

My point wasn't the Lord of the Rings is good. Or not. Or whatever. My point was that this current concept of improvement by reduction is assinine.

 

Paradise Lost by Milton. To quote my college English prof, 'This is a masterpiece. But no one has ever finished it and wished Milton had written more.'

 

How about A Song of Ice and Fire? I love the series, but wish his editor would find a pair and start using the red pen o' death. Even die hard Wheel of Time fans have told me that the series is too long had has a ton of useless content that should never have seen print.

 

Improvement by reduction is a worthwhile concept in music, painting, poetry, prose, movies, and games.

 

I'm sorry this letter is so long, I didn't have time to make it shorter." — George Bernard Shaw

Edited December 27, 2008 by Maria Caliban

[Maria Caliban]

**double post**

Edited December 27, 2008 by Maria Caliban

[Gorth]

**double post**

"Improvement by reduction"...

 

We get the point

 

I think the level of detail put into a game matters more to me than the number of miles your character has to walk to get from the start to the end of the story.

[aries101]

Someone mentioned Wasteland as their best rpg experience; I mention PS: Torment and BG1 as the best rpgs I've ever played. Because they're challenging, the story in them are great, the plot is unravelling before my (your) very eyes. PS: Torment have one of the most fantastic plots and stories I yet to encounter - as well as taking all of the D&D fantasy clich

[Pidesco]

I think the problem with game challenge these days is the notion of empowerment that has been developing in the industry. Apparently, for many game developers "empowering the player" means giving the player everything on a silver platter instead of giving the player a challenge and varied tools to overcome said challenge. It's the old "giving a fish/giving a fishing rod" dilemma, I guess. Specifically regarding RPGs, good endings should be considerably harder to get than bad endings.

[karka]

So being reincarnated *hit loads of time is challenging, huh?

[Pidesco]

No, not particularly, but Torment was essentially an adventure game where whatever challenge it might have didn't stem from the combat.

[Morgoth]

2009 will be a great year, both for RPG and non-RPG fans, that's for sure.

 

FEAR2

DoW2

Dragon Age

Alpha Protocol

Aliens RPG

Aliens CM

Mass Effect 2

Bioshock 2

Starcraft 2

Planet 51 (?)

Alan Wake

 

Heck, and perhaps more. A very good year indeed.

[Pidesco]

Isn't Alan Wake the new Duke Nukem Forever?

[Morgoth]

Isn't Alan Wake the new Duke Nukem Forever?

No. As opposed to the Duke, there's an actual website with a fairly new video and screenshots. That's something.

[Rhomal]

Personally I think dragon age is going to be bland. A rehash with a fresh coat of paint of things we have already seen 20 times already. But I think many people are going to blinded by the fact its by bioware so by default HAS to be the bestest eva!!!!!11 *shrug* I personally stopped following it quite some time ago. Them trying to make a thinly veiled D&D clone IMO.

 

Alpha Protocol OTOH, I get the vibe its going to be deus ex-ish and if so I am certainly going to check it out.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Rhomal

[Maria Caliban]

Personally I think dragon age is going to be bland. A rehash with a fresh coat of paint of things we have already seen 20 times already. But I think many people are going to blinded by the fact its by bioware so by default HAS to be the bestest eva!!!!!11 *shrug* I personally stopped following it quite some time ago. Them trying to make a thinly veiled D&D clone IMO.

 

Alpha Protocol OTOH, I get the vibe its going to be deus ex-ish and if so I am certainly going to check it out.

 

This is a bit like saying that GRRM is a thinly veiled Tolkien clone. Yes, they have dwarves, elves, dragons, and magic. Other than that, the game system and setting don't strike me as being anything like DnD.

[aries101]

So being reincarnated *hit loads of time is challenging, huh?

 

No, not particular.... I absolutely hate hate hate (or really really don't like) re-loading just for the sake of reloading. A certain fight in BG2: TOB comes to mind... It gets very annoying. PS: Torment, I agree, basically is an adventure game with combat thrown in for good measure.

 

When I talk about the death in PS: Torment being rewarding, counting for something as you just get re-incarnated again, I'm talking about this:

 

Spoiler for PS: Torment ahead - read at your own risk!

 

 

Death in PS: Torment is not the end for The Nameless One (your character in the game), nor do you need to reload. You just wake up in the Mortuary (where you first start) again. Depending on your intelligence, tattoos, and also your wisdom or your charisma, I think?, you will get access to more of your memories - memories that will help you figure out who you are. Or rather, who you have been.

 

 

And as I've said in my latest post, PS: Torment sort of spins the whole D&D clichees on their heads, doing a 180 (degrees) to them, e.g. by making rats smart and intelligent.

 

PS: Torment did not empower the gamer by handing everything omn a silver platter to the player, like so many game companies, dvs. and publishers do today. Instead PS: Torment gave the gamers/players a very good story, challenges - and caried means to the players to overcome these challenges. Lately, particularly in cases like Oblivion, Mass Effect and Bioshock, everything seems to be handed to player on a silver-platter as someone so eloquently put it.

 

The thing is that most people like a challenge; they will do anything to overcome said challenge if the reward in the game or in real life (irl) is big enough.

Edited December 28, 2008 by aries101

[Tigranes]

So being reincarnated *hit loads of time is challenging, huh?

 

What exactly is so bad about dying then having to reload, anyway? It wasn't Contra, it wasn't even platformer-levels. :/

[Hell Kitty]

Games today seem to be more about being an experience to enjoy than a game to be beaten. That's certainly the Valve philosophy of game design, that every player should be able to see everything the game has to offer in one playthrough.

 

The thing is that most people like a challenge

 

Do they? With gaming becoming more popular over time, I think there are going to be far more people who just want an entertaining experience, more people wanting to spend a small amount of time having fun than a large amount of time learning how to beat a game. Same goes with movies or books, or hell, the artwork they hang on their walls at home. Most people just want something that looks nice and matches the decor, they don't want to be challenged by the themes put forward by the artist. In others words, I think you're completely wrong, most people don't want a challenge.

 

they will do anything to overcome said challenge if the reward in the game or in real life (irl) is big enough.

 

I think you're being a bit dramatic here. The only thing a person can do is put time into the game, time to learn how to play, time to increase their skill, and the more time needed to complete the challenge the less it's going to be worth it for most people, because the reward for completing games is pretty small compared to the "reward" one can get from other, more important activities. There are professional gamers in the world who beat games and other players for money, but they are surely a tiny percentage of all the folks in the world who play computer and video games.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Hell Kitty

[Junai]

Will the future of rpgs be first person action rpgs with some arbitrary stats tacked on?

ADHD wants teh aktion!

 

Dude,,..

big-box wholesalers kill the specialized retailers

Indiana Jones 4 kills Indiana Jones 1

glossy stupefying manga gfx-masturbation kills IWD1

rehash kills innovation

The zeitgeist is winning, and the R*ckefellers glee.

 

Hobby-crpgrs must unite and recruit intelligent writers to give us intelligent PS:T crpgs.

 

 

J.

[Rhomal]

Personally I think dragon age is going to be bland. A rehash with a fresh coat of paint of things we have already seen 20 times already. But I think many people are going to blinded by the fact its by bioware so by default HAS to be the bestest eva!!!!!11 *shrug* I personally stopped following it quite some time ago. Them trying to make a thinly veiled D&D clone IMO.

 

Alpha Protocol OTOH, I get the vibe its going to be deus ex-ish and if so I am certainly going to check it out.

 

This is a bit like saying that GRRM is a thinly veiled Tolkien clone. Yes, they have dwarves, elves, dragons, and magic. Other than that, the game system and setting don't strike me as being anything like DnD.

 

I don't know about you but are you not burned of the high fantasy setting yet? Seems bioware just keeps going back to the same well. Yes in the BG era they were creative, now its beating a dead horse IMO. They even said its the spiritual successor to BG.

 

At least obsidian is taking some risks with aliens and AP. Trying to mix it up rather then take the safe route like bioware. Granted I am not blaming bio they are sticking with what they know, high fantasy, and apparently not in the mood or have interests to take risks. Odds are I am going to pass on aliens (franchise never did much for me) but AP has piqued my interest so we'll see once more info comes out. But I rather stick with a company that has some creativity left in the tank and willing to go in new directions then repaint the same old same old and play it safe with ideas, that at least I, am tired of.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't know about you but are you not burned of the high fantasy setting yet? Seems bioware just keeps going back to the same well. Yes in the BG era they were creative, now its beating a dead horse IMO. They even said its the spiritual successor to BG.

 

 

BioWare's last four games were Sonic: TDB, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, and Knights of the Old Republic. The last high fantasy game they released was NWN in 2002 (plus two expansions in 2003).

 

And why would I be 'burned' out of the high fantasy setting? It

[Morgoth]

I don't get the "I'm tired of fantasy" whining. It's the quality of the content and story after all, regardless of the setting, that matters. And creating it's own fantasy setting from scratch (and non DnD furthermore) is just as risky as making something like Aliens or AP. Give Bio more props, because we don't have many other devs around that are committed making quality RPGs.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Morgoth

[aries101]

Bioware's DA: Origins is supposed to be a dark fantasy setting, much more realistic and gritty than the lush high fantasy of D&D. Just yesterday (I think it was yesterday? or was it before Christmas?) Bioware showed some new stuff on gametrailers. They showed part of what was the Harrowing, a ritual all mages must pass, before they're allowed to join the Circle of Magii in Ferelden.

 

And what I saw was a very enchanting lady, half-naked, caressing herself in a very erotic way. David Gaider said (when asked) that it was a desire demon. The desire demon look into your desires, avarice, lust, greed etc. and tempts you using these. I haven't seen anything like this in D&D high fantasy at all. Also, King Cailain (the king of Ferelden) is a very naive king, who thinks that war is all glory & honour as well as it being like in the legends, riding with the famed Grey Wardens. And boy, is he going to be surprised. I haven't seen such a King in D&D or high fantasy at all.

 

Elves in D&D and High Fantasy are slim people who live in harmony and are peacful. Not so in Ferelden. There are city elves and elves that live in alienages (outside the city). Elves are second class citizens; they are treated accordingly. Dwarfs are immune to magic, eat rocks which leads to sulphuric gasses being passed. Dwarfs don't believe in the Fade which is the place from where all magic comes - in Ferelden.

 

This is clearly not a High Fantasy thinly veiled D&D clone, I find. If if is anything, it is nearer to the way The Witcher presents Dwarfs and Elves.

(Elves are seen as some king of resistance group against humans cutting down trees etc. I think? in The Witcher).

 

My main critique of DA: Origins is that the Blight seems a lot like the Reapers; the Grey Wardens sound a lot like the Spectres - and the plot for DA: Origins is very similar to that of Mass Effect. And you're forced to become a Grey Warden. And to combat the ancient evil that threathens the land.

 

The story is, of course, going to be top notch - since it is developed by Bioware. It also seems to have very interesting choice & consequences....

Bioware still makes very good rpgs, I find. Simply because they make the rpgs I want to play. Other games prefer the more open ended sandbox games like the ones Bethesda makes. And that's OK.

 

I'm still waiting for Bioware to make that cinematic adventure game I know they're capable of making. I would buy it in an instant -

and in a heartbeat, too.

[Tigranes]

King Cailain (the king of Ferelden) is a very naive king, who thinks that war is all glory & honour as well as it being like in the legends, riding with the famed Grey Wardens. And boy, is he going to be surprised. I haven't seen such a King in D&D or high fantasy at all.

 

Very common fantasy trope. Now, I don't care about that at all - it's okay if it's cliche, it's all delivery. The problem is that we've seen quite a bit of him, and it's very dull. Immature eager glory hunter gets himself in trouble, yawn yawn. Hopefully he turns out to be less of a one-dimensional annoying brat and more of a character.

 

As for Bio being awesome, that's a question of opinion, so it's all cool. What is definitely true is that, as they themselves know, their games and stories are formulaic to a hilt. And the question I'm wanting to ask them is, are they going to churn out that same bio-formula for DA, or mix it around a bit, after 5+ years?

[Morgoth]

It's a heroic fantasy RPG after all, so of course you'll have to join some sort of elite group, the Grey Wardens. Wouldn't really make sense to play some random dude who just cares about his only banal interests.