Prop 8

[Guard Dog]

Except that for one states laws to trump another goes against the faith and credit clause that GD was talking about, which would be federal.

 

It would be a matter for federal court yes, not the federal government as in the legislature. So far they have had the good sense to stay out of it except for a brief moment during the Bush years that did ot amount to anything. This is a State issue I think.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Guard Dog

[Walsingham]

Surely in terms of tac and other befits it would be possible for a state to assert that only marriages affirmed in that state were eligible?

[Guard Dog]

Surely in terms of tac and other befits it would be possible for a state to assert that only marriages affirmed in that state were eligible?

Actually no, they cannot do that. Marriages are contracts, and enjoy the same protection as any other contract in the US.

[Walsingham]

Surely in terms of tac and other befits it would be possible for a state to assert that only marriages affirmed in that state were eligible?

Actually no, they cannot do that. Marriages are contracts, and enjoy the same protection as any other contract in the US.

 

Right. *nods*

[Enoch]

Surely in terms of tac and other befits it would be possible for a state to assert that only marriages affirmed in that state were eligible?

I doubt that they could get away with being that broad-brushed. But, that said, I don't know of any case where FF&C has been used to force a state to recognize a marriage that it didn't want to. For example, before state laws against interracial marriage were declared unconstitutional, there were some cases where states refused to recognize out-of-state interracial marriages. Suits to force them to recognize the weddings under FF&C failed.

[Guard Dog]

Surely in terms of tac and other befits it would be possible for a state to assert that only marriages affirmed in that state were eligible?

I doubt that they could get away with being that broad-brushed. But, that said, I don't know of any case where FF&C has been used to force a state to recognize a marriage that it didn't want to. For example, before state laws against interracial marriage were declared unconstitutional, there were some cases where states refused to recognize out-of-state interracial marriages. Suits to force them to recognize the weddings under FF&C failed.

Aha, that's why you told my that argurment would not win

[Calax]

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-r...e---david-boies

 

That's about the newer challenge to the Prop 8 deal, and includes a discussion with one of the attorney's for the plantiffs

[Thorton_AP]

Since I missed this way back, I just wanted to make a comment:

 

As to sexuality being fixed, I don't buy that. I think this is just what they like and thats their choice to live that way. Trying to claim that sexuality is genetic is too much like making an excuse for why people are they way they are. It's a back door to aggrieved minority status that they do not need and do not deserve. You like what you like, there is no need to apologize or make excuses like "I can't help it".

 

 

While it may not be "innate" (i.e. environmental effects may influence it, not purely biology), I have an exceptionally hard time believing that someone "chooses" to be a member of a marginalized group in society, and all the negative stigma associated with it. If it was merely a choice, wouldn't people choose to become heterosexual rather than killing themselves because of being ostracized for being a homosexual?

[Hurlshort]

Since I missed this way back, I just wanted to make a comment:

 

As to sexuality being fixed, I don't buy that. I think this is just what they like and thats their choice to live that way. Trying to claim that sexuality is genetic is too much like making an excuse for why people are they way they are. It's a back door to aggrieved minority status that they do not need and do not deserve. You like what you like, there is no need to apologize or make excuses like "I can't help it".

 

 

While it may not be "innate" (i.e. environmental effects may influence it, not purely biology), I have an exceptionally hard time believing that someone "chooses" to be a member of a marginalized group in society, and all the negative stigma associated with it. If it was merely a choice, wouldn't people choose to become heterosexual rather than killing themselves because of being ostracized for being a homosexual?

 

Certainly their are some that choose to be part of a marginalized group, but on such a large scale as homosexuality? That seems highly unlikely. You are looking at numbers in the millions, and it is a group that has existed throughout human history.

 

Typically I've responded to the whole choice argument with this: Do you make a conscious decision to be attracted to members of the opposite sex? Do you look at a list of necessary requirements before decided that a girl is hot? I certainly don't. It requires no work on my part to be attracted to most women. So if someone is really having to make a conscious choice, I see a problem already.

[Orogun01]

Certainly their are some that choose to be part of a marginalized group, but on such a large scale as homosexuality? That seems highly unlikely. You are looking at numbers in the millions, and it is a group that has existed throughout human history.

 

Typically I've responded to the whole choice argument with this: Do you make a conscious decision to be attracted to members of the opposite sex? Do you look at a list of necessary requirements before decided that a girl is hot? I certainly don't. It requires no work on my part to be attracted to most women. So if someone is really having to make a conscious choice, I see a problem already.

You are boiling down the complexity of human behavior to a very simple view. There is such a thing as learned behavior, conditioning is a powerful thing and a lot of the times an unconscious choice. It's is not just do you look at a list of requirements to decide are you attracted or not, it's more of unconsciously are you attracted to one particular trait above the rest? There is all manner of fetishists who display their sexuality through their learned behavior (fetish) the same is possible for homosexuality.

[Thorton_AP]

Which is why I stated that it isn't necessarily all biological.

 

What sort of conditioning is there that would make a person homosexual though? Because there is plenty of influences that would condition just the opposite.

[Orogun01]

Which is why I stated that it isn't necessarily all biological.

 

What sort of conditioning is there that would make a person homosexual though? Because there is plenty of influences that would condition just the opposite.

Ok, common example: guy is awkward and has trouble relating and talking to girls, he has some homosexual friends to whom he relates better. Eventually one his friends makes a "push" and he responds to the advances and starts his homosexual life.

 

Or in a RL case I recall: a dude from my high school gets drugged and his male cousin takes advantage of him and he comes out of the whole affair as gay.

Or like one of my friends who was molested by a neighbor when he was a child and it's now gay.

 

The problem with the opposite is that people don't usually accept the fact that someone can be a "reformed" gay

Edited December 17, 2010 by Orogun01

[Thorton_AP]

Ok, common example: guy is awkward and has trouble relating and talking to girls, he has some homosexual friends to whom he relates better. Eventually one his friends makes a "push" and he responds to the advances and starts his homosexual life.

 

You really think so? Suddenly he's no longer heterosexual and no longer finds women attractive?

 

 

The problem with the opposite is that people don't usually accept the fact that someone can be a "reformed" gay

 

Can they?

 

Or like one of my friends who was molested by a neighbor when he was a child and it's now gay.

 

Your friend is an "it" now?

 

Or in a RL case I recall: a dude from my high school gets drugged and his male cousin takes advantage of him and he comes out of the whole affair as gay.

 

So before that he was genuinely interested in having sex with women and found women attractive, but after this suddenly he prefers men?

Edited December 17, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Orogun01]

Ok, common example: guy is awkward and has trouble relating and talking to girls, he has some homosexual friends to whom he relates better. Eventually one his friends makes a "push" and he responds to the advances and starts his homosexual life.

 

You really think so? Suddenly he's no longer heterosexual and no longer finds women attractive?

Hard to tell, usually people go with the excuse that he was repressing it even if he was married and had a child. That's actually another case, one of my friend's father.

Can they?

Why not? They are quick to assume that one can become gay, so the opposite must be true. If a person can go from having a relatively normal sexual life and suddenly develops other interests then a person who was born gay can feel attracted to a woman.

 

Your friend is an "it" now?

Slip of the tongue, didn't mean anything by it. English is my second language after all

 

So before that he was genuinely interested in having sex with women and found women attractive, but after this suddenly he prefers men?

He had a girlfriend, he wasn't one of those guys who you wonder whether they are or not and was accepted by everyone as a straight man; this was in Cuba, who stills held the old chauvinistic views and wasn't as open minded about it as it is now.

So yeah pretty sure that he wasn't gay before the event, sometimes the only way to overcome trauma is to constantly relive it. Most extroverted types of personalities use this as a defense mechanism, makes them think that they are in control so they can continue to function.

[Hurlshort]

How does that explain all the homosexuals who did not have a traumatic experience in their formative years?

[Orogun01]

How does that explain all the homosexuals who did not have a traumatic experience in their formative years?

This is just a reference to those particular cases, like I said before the complexity of human behavior is not a single viewpoint.

There may be some other social factors that weight into becoming gay, not necessarily traumatic.

[Gfted1]

Thats an interesting view Orogun01. Ive wondered what could have caused the mass homosexuality of say, the ancient Greek armies. That had to be a learned activity unless they just so happen to have entire armies of "natural" homosexuals.

[Orogun01]

Thats an interesting view Orogun01. Ive wondered what could have caused the mass homosexuality of say, the ancient Greek armies. That had to be a learned activity unless they just so happen to have entire armies of "natural" homosexuals.

First, homosexuality in ancient Greece was very different from what we have now. Some of their social practices promoted homosexual behavior; pedastry and as you lightly refer to, their armies. The Greeks however did not see sexual orientation as part of their identity; to explain further, sexual identity was independent of social status. There was however a formalization of sorts, that whomever took the passive role was seen as someone of a lower social standing and the active was dominant in the relationship. Both roles had characteristics associated with it, someone in a passive role would had been regarded as the "woman" of the relationship and was shunned.

 

So the Greeks had a whole social system for this kind of behavior; that they actually encouraged as a passing rite into adulthood. It's not a natural thing since social pressure factors heavily into it, and a lot of them went on to have families of their own even if they occasionally engaged in same sex relations for recreation they continued live with their families.