Mr. Chris A., you out there? Can you spill the beans now?

[Ivan the Terrible]

Hello? Hello?

 

Probably not. That's the problem with games; you have to spend all that time writing the things. Not enough time for message board browsing.

 

In any case, the topic: now that the details of the 'True Sith' and Revan's fate have passed from the hands of the fine folks at Obsidian and into the hands of Bioware, I'd kill to find out exactly what Chris Avellone was thinking when he made all the unanswered suggestions and allusions in KOTOR II. What happened to Revan? Why was it necessary for him to travel alone to face these 'True Sith', and take no one he loved? There was obviously something darker and more sinister involved than simple galactic conquest; after all, he had previously become a Sith himself and tried to conquer the galaxy in order to save it from the even worse darkness to come, right?

 

None of it can be canon Star Wars now, obviously, since Bioware is whipping up it's own interpretation, but now that we'll never see the Obsidian-crafted climax to the storyline it seems fairly harmless to let us all in on what the vision was.

[random n00b]

...wow. Another old timer.

 

As for the topic, I'd love to know too. But MCA hasn't posted here in a long, long time.

[Guest The Architect]

^ What the random n00b said.

 

Good thinking, Ivan.

[Markus Ramikin]

And while we're here, can we have an official "yes, Kreia was Arren Kae, leave me alone already" please?

[Ivan the Terrible]

As for the topic, I'd love to know too. But MCA hasn't posted here in a long, long time.

 

Bah. I have a bad feeling we'll never know, and from the sounds of it I'm worried Bioware might not have grasped the sinister and mysterious aspect of whatever menace Revan went off to fight. If it had just been another conquer-the-galaxy Sith Empire, as the upcoming MMORPG seems to suggest, then how will they explain why Revan didn't just immediately inform the Jedi and the Republic and start cranking out the war machine necessary to fight? How will they explain his reasoning for leaving everyone and everything behind and going alone to face what he had to face? If it's just another ho-hum Sith Empire, then having Bastila and Carth and Jolee and all the rest would be far from a disadvantage. And if it were just another ho-hum Sith Empire, becoming a Sith Lord yourself to save the galaxy from the coming threat seems a bit pointless.

 

It kinda reminds me of Star Control II and all the subtle hints that were left about the ultimate fate of the Precursors, or about whatever malevolent forces devoured the Androsynth. There's a mystery here, and maybe even Herr Avellone didn't whip up a good answer to it....or even could manage to do so without it coming across as an anti-climax. That Bioware seems to be opting for dropping all the mystery about the 'True Sith' and just going for 'some old Sith Lord ran off and now he's come back with an even BIGGER Army and Navy!' is disappointing, but then, I suppose we don't have enough detail to truly judge just yet.

 

EDIT:

Chris Avellone

Last post: July 22nd 2006!?!

 

Ok, no hope, then. I've been gone for a long time, but there was an age when could be seen responding to things on occasion.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Ivan the Terrible

[Markus Ramikin]

Ivan's words capture my problem with a nonobsidian Kotor continuation pretty well.

[DeathScepter]

DOn't forget that LA owns Kotor. But it is bioware's baby anyways. So anything Kotor should have go to Bioware anyways.

[Marcus]

SWTOR.COM

 

The true origins of the Sith remain shrouded in mystery. The Sith race was, in fact, largely unimportant until three thousand years ago, when Dark Jedi exiles arrived on Korriban and subjugated the Sith beneath their rule and their philosophy.

 

As the years passed, the Dark Jedi intermarried with those they ruled, and within generations, the word

Edited November 1, 2008 by Marcus

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Oh come on Marcus, we all know you like the new MMO but mass-spamming about it will not win you any points.

[Marcus]

Oh come on Marcus, we all know you like the new MMO but mass-spamming about it will not win you any points.

The question was, "What are the 'True Sith'?". Obsidian's story would have been the same as BioWare's. They both got the idea from one location. BioWare and Lucas originally consulted Obsidian, so one could conclude that the story never changed.

 

I used three sources: Star Wars Databank, Star Wars Wiki, and The Old Republic Game Site.

 

The Star Wars Databank & Expanded Universe is where Obsidian and BioWare got the idea. People have been telling everyone for years. I have one other source; which I could use to answer your question. That will make it four sources in total. The 'True Sith' storyline was not a big secret. Everyone just ignored the truth.

 

'True Sith" = the true Sith threat. Nothing more, nothing less. It was that simple.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Marcus

[Ivan the Terrible]

'True Sith" = the true Sith threat. Nothing more, nothing less. It was that simple.

 

Unlikely to be what Chris A. had in mind. As mentioned, why did Revan have to leave everyone he loved behind to fight this threat? Why didn't he inform the Republic of what was coming? Why did he assume that his becoming a Sith Lord himself would have been a 'lesser evil' compared to conquest by this other Sith Empire?

 

Exile: But we've defeated the Sith!

Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his way. And he left the Ebon Hawk and all its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them. And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks.

 

The 'True Sith', by appearances, were intended to be something a little more ominous than just 'a Sith Empire, but with even MORE big ships and soldiers and Sith Lords!'

 

Or at least I hope to god Chris A. wasn't simply setting us up for something that shallow and forgettable.

[Marcus]

Exile: But we've defeated the Sith!

Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his way. And he left the Ebon Hawk and all its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them. And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks.

 

The 'True Sith', by appearances, were intended to be something a little more ominous than just 'a Sith Empire, but with even MORE big ships and soldiers and Sith Lords!'

 

Or at least I hope to god Chris A. wasn't simply setting us up for something that shallow and forgettable.

Nope. Your Kreia dialogue pretty much sums up what I have been saying. I see a lowercase 't' in the phrase 'true Sith Empire'. The Old Republic is right on track. I think people wanted the story to be more complex. Lets face one fact here. Obsidian had to rush towards the deadline. Some pieces were accidently left out, and others were cut on purpose. How much do you want to make a bet that Obsidian messed up on editting dialogue. Rush, rush, rush... They didn't have time to finish, and that included missing some grammer errors along the way. Remember this BioWare and Lucas were involved in the development of KotOR I, KotOR II, and now SWTOR storyline. Its was all planed that way.

 

Storytellers are taught to be complex but simple, and that is just what they delivered.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Marcus

[Ivan the Terrible]

Nope. Your Kreia dialogue pretty much sums up what I have been saying. I see a lowercase 't' in the phrase 'true Sith Empire'. The Old Republic is right on track. I think people wanted the story to be more complex. Lets face one fact here. Obsidian had to rush towards the deadline. Some pieces were accidently left out, and others were cut on purpose. How much do you want to make a bet that Obsidian messed up on editting dialogue. Rush, rush, rush... They didn't have time to finish, and that included missing some grammer errors along the way. Remember this BioWare and Lucas were involved in the development of KotOR I, KotOR II, and now SWTOR storyline. Its was all planed that way.

 

And this...?

 

As mentioned, why did Revan have to leave everyone he loved behind to fight this threat? Why didn't he inform the Republic of what was coming? Why did he assume that his becoming a Sith Lord himself would have been a 'lesser evil' compared to conquest by this other Sith Empire?

 

You're giving Chris A. too little credit.

[Marcus]

And this...?

 

As mentioned, why did Revan have to leave everyone he loved behind to fight this threat? Why didn't he inform the Republic of what was coming? Why did he assume that his becoming a Sith Lord himself would have been a 'lesser evil' compared to conquest by this other Sith Empire?

 

Revan wanted to slow the true Sith threat, for he knew the Republic was not going to be ready. The Sith Lords teaches us that all the Jedi had dissapeared, and there was no one left except for the Jedi Exile to prepare for a possible onslaught. Naga Sadow, 300 years later, ended up surprising everyone with a massive fleet of Sith, and then he also retreated back into the Outer Rim. Revan could not fight Naga Sadow while worrying about others. Defeating a Emporer Naga Sadow would require intense focus. Read the Jedi Code - There is no emotion, there is only peace. Before Revan could get to Naga Sadow, he was confronted by a ticked off Jedi Exile. Revan and the Jedi Exile didn't quite make it to their destination. Just like the meaning behind the true Sith, people keep ignoring stuff that has already been printed.

 

Revan = Male

Jedi Exile = Female

 

The Jedi Exile's relationship with Revan was already fleshed out. You can find the answer in the Knights of the Old Republic RPG guide. The Jedi Exile was upset with Revan, for he left her behind on Malacore V. Used like fodder. Someone is one ticked off Jedi, and she is gunning for Revan. You will most likely learn more in the MMO.

 

Thats why 300 years later the Sith invasion was a surprise. No one knew what had happened. Naga Sadow used strong darkside powers to fend off death for 1,000 years. Revan was the only one who knew about Naga Sadow, and he never made it to his destination. Guess why.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Marcus

[Strix]

Jedi Exile = Female

 

Actually there are cannon sources such as the miniatures game that claim otherwise, so at this point the sex of the Exile is debatable.

[Markus Ramikin]

Yeah, even if there weren't, establishing the canonicity of a character's gender by a single pronoun in some obscure piece of related fiction doesn't really appeal to me. And from what I've read, the intention of the game creators for both K1 and K2 was to leave that question about the main protagonists of each up for the player to decide, anyway.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, both Revan and the Exile are still Schroedinger's cats as far as gender goes.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Yeah, even if there weren't, establishing the canonicity of a character's gender by a single pronoun in some obscure piece of related fiction doesn't really appeal to me. And from what I've read, the intention of the game creators for both K1 and K2 was to leave that question about the main protagonists of each up for the player to decide, anyway.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, both Revan and the Exile are still Schroedinger's cats as far as gender goes.

 

For canon purposes, like the Star Wars databank, Revan is male and Exile is female. But really, that's pretty meaningless. You can consider them either sex and it works equally well.

[Dark Wastl]

Revan wanted to slow the true Sith threat, for he knew the Republic was not going to be ready. The Sith Lords teaches us that all the Jedi had dissapeared, and there was no one left except for the Jedi Exile to prepare for a possible onslaught. Naga Sadow, 300 years later, ended up surprising everyone with a massive fleet of Sith, and then he also retreated back into the Outer Rim. Revan could not fight Naga Sadow while worrying about others. Defeating a Emporer Naga Sadow would require intense focus. Read the Jedi Code - There is no emotion, there is only peace. Before Revan could get to Naga Sadow, he was confronted by a ticked off Jedi Exile. Revan and the Jedi Exile didn't quite make it to their destination. Just like the meaning behind the true Sith, people keep ignoring stuff that has already been printed.

 

Revan = Male

Jedi Exile = Female

 

The Jedi Exile's relationship with Revan was already fleshed out. You can find the answer in the Knights of the Old Republic RPG guide. The Jedi Exile was upset with Revan, for he left her behind on Malacore V. Used like fodder. Someone is one ticked off Jedi, and she is gunning for Revan. You will most likely learn more in the MMO.

 

Thats why 300 years later the Sith invasion was a surprise. No one knew what had happened. Naga Sadow used strong darkside powers to fend off death for 1,000 years. Revan was the only one who knew about Naga Sadow, and he never made it to his destination. Guess why.

 

Actually, nowhere does it say anything about Naga Sadow being the Emperor, that's the same mistake IGN made. Naga Sadow lead an attack on the Republic, he was utterly defeated and fled to Yavin IV. The "last Emperor of the Sith" isn't given a name for a reason. It could end up being Sadow - if they choose to make the Sith Lord killed by Freedon Nadd not the real and living Sadow - but currently there is no name associated with the Emperor.

 

The funny thing about making Sadow this Emperor would be that he was anything but a good tactician the first time around. He makes Malak look like the most cunning tactician ever, now he's suddenly supposed to be brilliant at it?

 

The problem with your theory about Revan and his reasons behind the path he chose, is that he had a completely different plan before Malak turned against him. If the fight against the true Sith was a fight of believe, which is what Kreia indicates, he wouldn't need an Empire to stop them.

 

I really have no idea how you come up with the Exile gunning for Revan. There is no hint at it in TSL at all, nor anywhere else. The Exile was pissed after Malachor, but that doesn't mean that she wanted to go after Revan once she returned to the Republic. In fact, with Kreia telling her about Revan's reasons and how there is a huge threat to be stopped, I really don't see how the Exile would even think about confronting Revan, especially since she is a lightsider by canon. Even if she still had a beef with Revan, which doesn't seem likely looking at TSL, she'd care about the important matter first, which is stopping the Sith, not handling a matter she has come to peace with a long time ago.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Dark Wastl

[Marcus]

Actually, nowhere does it say anything about Naga Sadow being the Emperor, that's the same mistake IGN made. Naga Sadow lead an attack on the Republic, he was utterly defeated and fled to Yavin IV. The "last Emperor of the Sith" isn't given a name for a reason. It could end up being Sadow - if they choose to make the Sith Lord killed by Freedon Nadd not the real and living Sadow - but currently there is no name associated with the Emperor.

I just rechecked my facts. I made a cross connection. After the Dark Lord Naga Sadow was mentioned, he story was imediatly followed with the Emperor's. I ended up crossing both stories while reading. Ooopsy.

 

I really have no idea how you come up with the Exile gunning for Revan. There is no hint at it in TSL at all, nor anywhere else. The Exile was pissed after Malachor, but that doesn't mean that she wanted to go after Revan once she returned to the Republic. In fact, with Kreia telling her about Revan's reasons and how there is a huge threat to be stopped, I really don't see how the Exile would even think about confronting Revan, especially since she is a lightsider by canon. Even if she still had a beef with Revan, which doesn't seem likely looking at TSL, she'd care about the important matter first, which is stopping the Sith, not handling a matter she has come to peace with a long time ago.

 

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide pg.140.

 

While the Jedi Exile roams aimlessly, news comes of a Jedi Civil War - begun by Revan. The news sends her spinning. Had she been so blind or is the galaxy so truly incomprehensible? She retreats further into herself, forsaking all Jedi principles except one: no attachments.

 

... Afterwards, she ventures into unknown territory searching for Revan, leaving her disciples to ressurect the Jedi.

She left while under the impression that Revan was a Dark Lord. She went after Revan to confront him. Why?

 

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide pg.140.

 

Greif-stricken and intractable, she returns alone to answer for herself, and by extension, Revan and his errant Jedi.

She went into Exile for all the hell that went down on Malacore V. This takes place before she learned about the Jedi Civil War. The Jedi Exile has some unfinished buisness with Revan. Why? She answered for his crimes. Otherwords, she went into Exile for Revan and his war. How would anyone feel if the person who they stood trial for had turned to the darkside, and they started an all out Jedi Civil War. Betrayed <--- The theme of The Sith Lords. The Jedi Exile felt betrayed by Revan. Edited November 1, 2008 by Marcus

[Markus Ramikin]

I think you're stretching it.

 

As to the issue of canonicity, I'm going with this quote:

"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity."

―Leland Chee

 

So they may have needed to decide a gender, and now that they have, they'll stick with it. But it doesn't mean anything, really.

 

When there's 20 or 50 writers working on the same universe, with so varying levels of writing skill (hell, even the original owner of the franchise has produced works much worse than the original trilogy), the idea of canon loses all meaning for me, and I feel free to pick and choose what I like.

 

It's like with Dune. You have this totally sub-par crap written by Brian Herbert and the Star-Wars-for-children writer K.J. Anderson, supposedly based on Frank Herbert's notes. And it's officially "canon". But does any serious fan who's actually understood the plots, characters and hints for the future in Heretics and in Chapterhouse, going to accept that garbage as a rightful continuation that makes sense? I'm saying no. I'm saying it's still fanfic, even if they write "canon" all over the book covers.

 

And the situation is much the same except more complex with Star Wars, where there are many more writers adding their own ideas to the universe... at what point do you say "ok, this stuff has gotten out of hand, it's no longer the Star Wars I cared for"?

 

So yeah... I guess if my ranting is to have a point, it's that what officially passes for"canon" doesn't mean as much as a lot of people seem to think it does.

/end useless rant

[Marcus]

If you guys want to keep ignoring what is in front of you, it is not BioWare, Obsidian, or Lucas's fault for everyone's dismissiveness. Don't go around hatting the publishers and writters because you don't like the story. Lucas and the Expanded Universe has already told you the details. Take it or leave it. No one said anyone had to like it.

 

Its all about how the story is written.

 

When there's 20 or 50 writers working on the same universe, with so varying levels of writing skill (hell, even the original owner of the franchise has produced works much worse than the original trilogy), the idea of canon loses all meaning for me, and I feel free to pick and choose what I like.

Thats for the new story being told in "The Old Republic". Keep in mind that there is another "The Old Republic" out there, which sheads some light on how past events had unfolded. Don't ignore it.

 

Revan and Exile's story has ended.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Marcus

[Rycal]

Revan and Exile's story has ended.

 

You sir, are epic fail.

 

Considering that the events of TOR are based on the events in KotoR I and II - I'd say that Revan's and the Exile's story are very much relevant. And I think you shouldn't dismiss KotoR I/II's storyline just yet. The Sith found a way to sustain themselves in life long after they should've been dead...can't remember the relevant Sith Lord's name...something Sidious mentioned to Skywalker about cheating death (whatever...)

 

For all we know, the Sith outmanouvered the Republic fleet and forces wherever they met - d

[Magister Lajciak]

Also, IIRC:

 

Revan is a Light Side Jedi

Exile is Dark Side Jedi

[Magister Lajciak]

And yes, I too remember that Revan being male and Exile being female being the cannon. But, of course, cannon is just that - we all have our own playthrough experiences dictating our own cannon - for me, for example, both are male and both are light side.

[Dark Wastl]

... Afterwards, she ventures into unknown territory searching for Revan, leaving her disciples to ressurect the Jedi.

She left while under the impression that Revan was a Dark Lord. She went after Revan to confront him. Why?

 

Greif-stricken and intractable, she returns alone to answer for herself, and by extension, Revan and his errant Jedi.

She went into Exile for all the hell that went down on Malacore V. This takes place before she learned about the Jedi Civil War. The Jedi Exile has some unfinished buisness with Revan. Why? She answered for his crimes. Otherwords, she went into Exile for Revan and his war. How would anyone feel if the person who they stood trial for had turned to the darkside, and they started an all out Jedi Civil War. Betrayed <--- The theme of The Sith Lords. The Jedi Exile felt betrayed by Revan.

 

 

Wait, she left searching for Revan after Kreia had told her the whole story. How could she believe that Revan was a Dark Lord, if he had just killed off Malak and saved the Republic from being overthrown by the Sith?

Even she, who was in exile all the time, knew what happened between Revan and Malak. If she knew, there was no way that she believed that he was a Dark Lord.

 

All the guide says, is that she is searching for Revan, it doesn't say that she wants to confront him. Then you have additional content, like the meeting with Carth at the end of TSL, which goes directly against her having any sort of grudge against Revan. It's a thing of the past.

 

Judging from TSL, I don't see any interest in Revan at all, nor any feel of betrayal. There was no hatred, no kind of animosity against him. The Exile returned because she felt it was the right thing to do. Whether Revan did anything bad afterwards doesn't really change anything about that. Yes, she was used by the council as a symbol for Revan and his followers, but she wasn't. Just because the council sees her as such, doesn't mean that she thinks so as well. She claimed that the war against the Mandalorians was necessary, that far she agrees with Revan, but she didn't defend him for what happened afterwards. In fact, she was punished for the Mandalorian War, not for Revan turning into a Sith. She couldn't care less whether Revan turned to the darkside, because she didn't defend him for it, she did the opposite and left the war behind.

 

There isn't a single scene in TSL which makes me think that the Exile holds any kind of negative feelings against Revan. Not even in the past. She defends the tactics used during the war, she doesn't say anything bad about him while talking to Kreia or Carth, she defends him going to war, that doesn't sound like someone who holds a grudge.

And again, even if she still was angry, which I don't see, the Exile isn't someone who runs off for a personal vendetta when higher things are at stake.

 

 

 

As for canon, both Revan and Exile are supposed to be lightsiders.