*The* DRM thread

[alanschu]

I am still baffled by someone that would buy a game purely based on the DRM implementation (or lack thereof). Would you still buy the game if you didn't think you'd actually like the game?

[Magister Lajciak]

Nothing, but if you look at torrents of, for example, Sins of a Solar empire you will find loads of people condemning those pirating the game.

 

What? You mean people are posting comments condemning piracy? What on earth does that have to do with fighting piracy.

 

People are less likely to download if they're being rewarded rather than punished.

 

Pirate downloads game, pirate downloaded DLC/patches/mods/whatever.

 

How are people being rewarded or punished?

 

The basic premise is that you have to have a legitimate copy to download the extra content and that pirates don't bother to crack these mini-patches.

[Magister Lajciak]

I am still baffled by someone that would buy a game purely based on the DRM implementation (or lack thereof). Would you still buy the game if you didn't think you'd actually like the game?

 

Some people might do so to help support the company. Personally, I wouldn't buy a game just because it didn't have DDRM - it would also have to be a game that appeals to me.

[alanschu]

One thing I was just thinking, is that if games tend to need mini-patches and downloadable content, is that pirates probably will start to find ways to crack them.

 

One nice thing about something like Impulse is you have to verify your purchase before you can download it. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to track this download and release standalone patches though.

 

 

Though a concern here is that developers could be encouraged to sell games that are incomplete, and letting users download final chapters of the game to ensure legitimacy. I am not sure where I am on stance like this.

[Magister Lajciak]

One thing I was just thinking, is that if games tend to need mini-patches and downloadable content, is that pirates probably will start to find ways to crack them.

 

This possible, but most pirates will probably consider these to be small fry and not bother unless these are practically essential for the game.

 

One nice thing about something like Impulse is you have to verify your purchase before you can download it. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to track this download and release standalone patches though.

 

What is "Impulse" and how does it work? Also, how exactly does "Steam" (I have never used it, but it appears many folks on here have done so and it is frequently mentioned) work in the context of DRM?

 

Though a concern here is that developers could be encouraged to sell games that are incomplete, and letting users download final chapters of the game to ensure legitimacy.

 

Yes, this is a concern and would be a very negative development indeed in my eyes at least. It would also probably motivate pirates to pirate these extra things too if they were practically essential to the game.

[neckthrough]

Also, how exactly does "Steam" (I have never used it, but it appears many folks on here have done so and it is frequently mentioned) work in the context of DRM?

Games you buy via Steam are attached to your Steam account. To start up a game, you log on to Steam, which authenticates you with a password (similar to an online game), and then launches the game locally installed on your machine. If you wish to play offline, you can just authenticate your account once and then go into offline mode, following which you can play any Steam game as many times as you wish without an internet connection. Of course, if you want to download updates or purchase any new games, you'll want to log on again.

 

So, Steam does exert some amount of control over your activities as a user, but I like the fact that it does allow you to go offline if you wish. I don't think I've ever used Steam in offline mode, but it's important for me to have the freedom to do so.

 

In return for its (mostly minimal) interference in your activities, Steam offers a handful of useful value additions (unlike any other DRM scheme):

• You can often pre-stream game data into your hard drive before some game releases. On release day, you either purchase an activation key online, or go to the store, purchase a box and get the activation code from within. Enter the activation code into Steam and your game is good to go.
  
• The steam servers maintain a record of the games you own. You can delete and re-install your games as and when you choose without having to look for your CDs.
  
• Patches and updates for all your installed games are streamed in and applied automatically the moment you log onto your Steam account.
  
• You can log out of your account on your home machine, get to work, log onto Steam on your work machine and start playing Half Life 2. You'll probably get fired though.
  

So yes, it's DRM, but the application works perfectly, it does not install rootkits on my machine, it allows me to install and play my games on as many machines as I want to (as long as I have my login information), it does allow me to go offline if I so wish, and in exchange for the limited control it exerts, it provides a bunch of useful services. I think that's the key distinction between Steam and all other DRM methods: all other methods provide ZERO benefits to the end user, Steam actually gives you a reason to use it.

[Strix]

However sometimes Steam does include other DRM schemes, just look at the S.T.A.L.E.R. Clear Sky release that only has five activations if one buys the digital copy (I cannot find anyone who has the non-steam NA version and also has an on-line activation limit).

[neckthrough]

Yeah I heard about this recently, and it's disturbing. Steam already provides a decent enough authentication system to discourage casual copying, which is what DRM is about anyway... anybody that seriously wants to play the game without paying for it would just get the torrent.

 

On another note, I've been thinking about EA's recent comments. Assuming that they genuinely intend to follow through with their promises, I think the combination of user-deactivations and a future patch removing activation limits altogether addresses most of the practical complaints most customers would have with DRM.

 

My personal ideological objections still remain, though. I still can't come to terms with the fact that I'm having to install junk on my machine when the torrent is probably going to get released on the very same day the game goes for sale. Seriously, if SecuROM were able to protect their content for even a few days after release, I could possibly just bite the bullet because there's *some* good coming out of DRM use.

[Mamoulian War]

On another note, I've been thinking about EA's recent comments. Assuming that they genuinely intend to follow through with their promises, I think the combination of user-deactivations and a future patch removing activation limits altogether addresses most of the practical complaints most customers would have with DRM.

 

I'd sooner believe Devil, than anyone from EA... especialy, when they are talking about supporting their games... i've seen lot of promises from them about Origin, Westwood and Bullfrog... and we all know how these promises ended up...

 

With EA Purchasing Bioware, I was thinking giving them another chance, but with the **** they pulled with Mass Effect, i was just convinced, that i rather go get Rabbies than purchasing anything from them again... My last game from EA was Wing Commander Prophecy Gold, and that will remain until the end of the world...

Edited October 25, 2008 by Mamoulian War

[Magister Lajciak]

Also, how exactly does "Steam" (I have never used it, but it appears many folks on here have done so and it is frequently mentioned) work in the context of DRM?

Games you buy via Steam are attached to your Steam account. To start up a game, you log on to Steam, which authenticates you with a password (similar to an online game), and then launches the game locally installed on your machine. If you wish to play offline, you can just authenticate your account once and then go into offline mode, following which you can play any Steam game as many times as you wish without an internet connection. Of course, if you want to download updates or purchase any new games, you'll want to log on again.

 

So, Steam does exert some amount of control over your activities as a user, but I like the fact that it does allow you to go offline if you wish. I don't think I've ever used Steam in offline mode, but it's important for me to have the freedom to do so.

 

In return for its (mostly minimal) interference in your activities, Steam offers a handful of useful value additions (unlike any other DRM scheme):

• You can often pre-stream game data into your hard drive before some game releases. On release day, you either purchase an activation key online, or go to the store, purchase a box and get the activation code from within. Enter the activation code into Steam and your game is good to go.
  
• The steam servers maintain a record of the games you own. You can delete and re-install your games as and when you choose without having to look for your CDs.
  
• Patches and updates for all your installed games are streamed in and applied automatically the moment you log onto your Steam account.
  
• You can log out of your account on your home machine, get to work, log onto Steam on your work machine and start playing Half Life 2. You'll probably get fired though.
  

So yes, it's DRM, but the application works perfectly, it does not install rootkits on my machine, it allows me to install and play my games on as many machines as I want to (as long as I have my login information), it does allow me to go offline if I so wish, and in exchange for the limited control it exerts, it provides a bunch of useful services. I think that's the key distinction between Steam and all other DRM methods: all other methods provide ZERO benefits to the end user, Steam actually gives you a reason to use it.

 

Thanks for the explanation!

 

It doesn't sound as bad as the DDRM used by the EA, but it still doesn't tacke the (for me) crucial longevity issue. Basically, you have to authenticate online to install/activate the game, which will become impossible if Steam should disappear in the future (say if Valve goes bankrupt in 10 years). That happens to be my main problem with DDRM, more so than even rootkits.

[Magister Lajciak]

On another note, I've been thinking about EA's recent comments. Assuming that they genuinely intend to follow through with their promises, I think the combination of user-deactivations and a future patch removing activation limits altogether addresses most of the practical complaints most customers would have with DRM.

 

I'd sooner believe Devil, than anyone from EA... especialy, when they are talking about supporting their games... i've seen lot of promises from them about Origin, Westwood and Bullfrog... and we all know how these promises ended up...

 

Although I wouldn't sooner believe the devil and I think that EA's promises are a major step in the right direction, I agree that I wouldn't exactly rely on them. Nobody will convince me that a failing publisher (unless its a very unique publisher indeed and EA ain't it) that has trouble paying for the upkeep of its activation servers and is failing to meet its commercial obligations or obligations to its employees will spend its precious resources on patching its entire backlog library of games with DRM just so that players can enjoy playing them after it goes bankrupt. I have before advocated an auto-expiry function on DRM that would solve this issue. The DRM, however, needs to expiry completely autonomously without a need for a patch from the publisher/developer and without the need to go online to check with some kind of server, because if the game needs to do this than we are back to square one.

[Spider]

I don't get how DLC could possible fight off piracy. I pirates can get their hands on the original game, what's stopping them from getting the downloadable content?

 

Afaik there sin't a piratable version of Bring down the Sky. I could be wrong though.

[Mamoulian War]

there is one, you just need to know read russian

[Magister Lajciak]

Supposedly Stardock is working on a new DRM scheme that it hopes would satisfy both big publishers and customers, but it still plans to offer its games DRM free.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

DRM ran over my dog and stole my lunch money.

 

 

... TBH, I've never been bothered by DRM. Mostly because I play on consoles.

[Magister Lajciak]

... TBH, I've never been bothered by DRM. Mostly because I play on consoles.

 

I guess this is one major advantage of console gaming over PC gaming. Your games never expire if the publisher pulls some server...

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

... TBH, I've never been bothered by DRM. Mostly because I play on consoles.

 

I guess this is one major advantage of console gaming over PC gaming. Your games never expire if the publisher pulls some server...

 

I think some online-only games might be affected by shut down servers, unless Xbox Live/PSN/Wii network takes care of that.

[Magister Lajciak]

... TBH, I've never been bothered by DRM. Mostly because I play on consoles.

 

I guess this is one major advantage of console gaming over PC gaming. Your games never expire if the publisher pulls some server...

 

I think some online-only games might be affected by shut down servers, unless Xbox Live/PSN/Wii network takes care of that.

 

I am not a console gamer, so I was not aware that online-only games are also made for consoles. I thought it was a PC-only blight. Still, at least your single-player games are not infested with game-longevity killing DDRM.

[Epirote]

Generally, I don't mind DRM, if it is unobtrusive and doesn't mess up my system, as did a Securom a while a go. Sure, they put out a patch to remedy that pretty fast, but after applying the patch, AVG 8 picked it up as potentially unwanted programm, quarantined it and didn't let me restore it, so the final solution was to format and reinstall everything. I know, that this wasn't Securom's fault, but still ... major hassle. I must, however, stress that this was the first time I ever had problems with DRM. I could live without it, in fact I'd be happy, if my favourite games came out without any DRM, but being pragmatic that's never gone happen, so I've learned to live with it - at least with a Securom type of DRM. I absolutely hate DRM like Mass Effect has with limited reinstallation options. That's a major turndown for me.

[kjradio]

I don't like the limited reinstallation either. I've reinstalled Neverwinter 2 at least 5 times since I bought it. Would that put me over the limit with the Mass Effect DRM?

[Magister Lajciak]

I don't like the limited reinstallation either. I've reinstalled Neverwinter 2 at least 5 times since I bought it. Would that put me over the limit with the Mass Effect DRM?

 

Yes, it would have. The limit on Mass Effect was 3 installs.

[neckthrough]

... TBH, I've never been bothered by DRM. Mostly because I play on consoles.

 

I guess this is one major advantage of console gaming over PC gaming. Your games never expire if the publisher pulls some server...

Don't worry, they'll fix this soon enough. Today's console disks provide copy-protection equivalent to the CD-key checks used in PC games thus far. Future console disks will only be playable on the first 3 unique consoles you first play the disk on. Once you "activate" a particular console, you can play the game on that console as many times as you wish, but if you want to play it on another console you will use up an activation. The idea is to limit second-hand sales (an ugly and downright criminal practice that is rampant in the console space), and to discourage you from lending your disk to your friend temporarily (another deplorable practice). These modifications will bring console DRM on par with today's PC DRM.

[Magister Lajciak]

... TBH, I've never been bothered by DRM. Mostly because I play on consoles.

 

I guess this is one major advantage of console gaming over PC gaming. Your games never expire if the publisher pulls some server...

Don't worry, they'll fix this soon enough. Today's console disks provide copy-protection equivalent to the CD-key checks used in PC games thus far. Future console disks will only be playable on the first 3 unique consoles you first play the disk on. Once you "activate" a particular console, you can play the game on that console as many times as you wish, but if you want to play it on another console you will use up an activation. The idea is to limit second-hand sales (an ugly and downright criminal practice that is rampant in the console space), and to discourage you from lending your disk to your friend temporarily (another deplorable practice). These modifications will bring console DRM on par with today's PC DRM.

 

ROFL That's a good one!

 

They would also have to make sure, that if you by any chance change controllers or other hardware or otherwise upgrade the console, it can also use up an activation, but you can never know ahead of time - you have to try it first to see!

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

... TBH, I've never been bothered by DRM. Mostly because I play on consoles.

 

I guess this is one major advantage of console gaming over PC gaming. Your games never expire if the publisher pulls some server...

Don't worry, they'll fix this soon enough. Today's console disks provide copy-protection equivalent to the CD-key checks used in PC games thus far. Future console disks will only be playable on the first 3 unique consoles you first play the disk on. Once you "activate" a particular console, you can play the game on that console as many times as you wish, but if you want to play it on another console you will use up an activation. The idea is to limit second-hand sales (an ugly and downright criminal practice that is rampant in the console space), and to discourage you from lending your disk to your friend temporarily (another deplorable practice). These modifications will bring console DRM on par with today's PC DRM.

 

ROFL That's a good one!

 

They would also have to make sure, that if you by any chance change controllers or other hardware or otherwise upgrade the console, it can also use up an activation, but you can never know ahead of time - you have to try it first to see!

Hasn't happened yet, and haven't heard of any plans on that. So I have no idea where you got that idea.

 

And if it was sarcasm, whoopsies.

[neckthrough]

Yeah it was a sarcastic remark. Though I wouldn't bet on it not coming true someday.