The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[J.E. Sawyer]

Well, good news: the combat, story, and characters in Aliens are all going to own. Peace.

[Xard]

And I agree with Nick

I'm going to kill you.

 

I'm actually looking forward to AP/Aliens most for the story/writing/characters/C&C/etc, since that's what Obs does. However, that does not mean in any way that substandard combat mechanics are acceptable. Frankly, if a developer knows that one aspect of their game (especially one that'll probably take most of the usual player's time in that game) is subpar, it should be changed fundamentally. If you can't do shooters, don't do shooter RPGs. If you're aiming for a specific type of gameplay, you better deliver.

 

it's not like I'm trying to get between you two and your relationship

 

I'd too be more looking forward to those aspects but because we really don't know much about those ('cept C&C) and awesome quality is pretty much guaranteed - so I must have something else to hope having vast improvements and that is basic gameplay.

[newc0253]

That's what RPG means, RPG means tactical combat simulator with experience gaining and character building.

and here i thought RPG meant 'Role Playing Game'.

 

it's true that the first RPGs were mostly tactical combat rules for minatures. but so what? they've moved on since then.

 

the fallacy that because X originated from Y, therefore X=Y should be pretty obvious.

 

i agree btw that CPRGs shouldn't have sucky combat just because combat ain't the focus of the game. after all, most CRPGs are a lot more combat-intensive than most pen-and-paper sessions. but i'm also willing to excuse mediocre combat in a CRPG so long as the other elements of the game are strong, c.f. Bloodlines.

Edited August 29, 2008 by newc0253

[Xard]

That's what RPG means, RPG means tactical combat simulator with experience gaining and character building.

and here i thought RPG meant 'Role Playing Game'.

 

it's true that the first RPGs were mostly tactical combat rules for minatures. but so what? they've moved on since then.

 

the fallacy that because X originated from Y, therefore X=Y should be pretty obvious.

 

I'm well aware of the vast paradox that roleplaying games don't have to have roleplaying in them in order to be roleplaying games

 

You do remember the thread (or more like phase in loong thread) that started from Patrick Millis (derp, memory falters) asking what is RPG?

 

 

If however one takes revisionist approach vast majority of classic RPG's CEASE TO BE RPG's

 

C&C is late comer into CRPG's

 

 

And basis of RPG's never got changed, I don't merely mean very first miniature wargames.

 

 

CRPG is best described as sort of an umbrella term with only those few basic elements linking them all together from Bio RPG's to dungeon romps to slashfests to Troika games

 

 

not even to start the whole debate what consists roleplaying. Technically good rule is that you can CHOOSE what role you can play. But that is something you're able to do just well with only first part of C&C

 

edit: I personally "follow" VD's mantras (yet that's all they are, mantras) on what consists proper and even awesome roleplaying, but his terms are way too limited to consist origin of RPG's and at least 75 % of recognized CRPG's in it

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I really liked Bloodlines combat, but that's because my long history with fps games. There was nothing better then to beat zombie graveyard zerg with lousy weapon skills. Your characters aim would wander around and you would have to carefully time your shots or be at certain range to hit.

 

[Xard]

Well, good news: the combat, story, and characters in Aliens are all going to own. Peace.

 

Why the **** isn't this news post then?

[newc0253]

Well, good news: the combat, story, and characters in Aliens are all going to own. Peace.

 

 

Is this gonna be a standup fight or another bughunt?

Edited August 29, 2008 by newc0253

[Gromnir]

edit: I personally "follow" VD's mantras (yet that's all they are, mantras) on what consists proper and even awesome roleplaying, but his terms are way too limited to consist origin of RPG's and at least 75 % of recognized CRPG's in it

 

 

well there is your problem. might as well ask a Haredi Rabbi for fashion advice.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 29, 2008 by Gromnir

[Xard]

I really liked Bloodlines combat, but that's because my long history with fps games. There was nothing better then to beat zombie graveyard zerg with lousy weapon skills. Your characters aim would wander around and you would have to carefully time your shots or be at certain range to hit.

 

 

Play some FPS's

 

edit: I personally "follow" VD's mantras (yet that's all they are, mantras) on what consists proper and even awesome roleplaying, but his terms are way too limited to consist origin of RPG's and at least 75 % of recognized CRPG's in it

 

 

well there is your problem. might as well ask a Haredi Rabbi for fashion advice.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

What's wrong with his ideas of what constitute good RPG mechanism and roleplaying in CRPG's? They're absolutely spot on.

 

Only thing I disagree on is that I don't think only games who meet all those criteriors are RPG's. I view such games as ideal RPG's

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[Gromnir]

I really liked Bloodlines combat, but that's because my long history with fps games. There was nothing better then to beat zombie graveyard zerg with lousy weapon skills. Your characters aim would wander around and you would have to carefully time your shots or be at certain range to hit.

 

 

Play some FPS's

 

edit: I personally "follow" VD's mantras (yet that's all they are, mantras) on what consists proper and even awesome roleplaying, but his terms are way too limited to consist origin of RPG's and at least 75 % of recognized CRPG's in it

 

 

well there is your problem. might as well ask a Haredi Rabbi for fashion advice.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

What's wrong with his ideas of what constitute good RPG mechanism and roleplaying in CRPG's? They're absolutely spot on.

 

Only thing I disagree on is that I don't think only games who meet all those criteriors are RPG's. I view such games as ideal RPG's

 

vd has opinions. we all gots opinions. Gromnir don't like twitchy, but we sure don't claim ours is the Only or even Proper manner to be doing a crpg.

 

vd recites dogma... imagined canon as handed down from Cain... or somesuch nonsense.

 

*shrug*

 

he would be more dangerous if he were more clever.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Xard]

Yeah, it's too dogmatic from certain pov.

 

However I very much agree on those central dogmas and you didn't explain why those dogmas are false

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[Gromnir]

Yeah, it's too dogmatic from certain pov.

 

However I very much agree on those central dogmas and you didn't explain why those dogmas are false

 

sure we did. is 'cause they is simply opinions. start from pov that Cannism is Only or Right way to do something is... wacky. again, we is talking 'bout game development, not religious dogma, so notion o' canon is misplaced.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

@Xard

 

I don't think I'd suggest that a game outside of the fighting game genre should have as much variety as Virtua Fighter -- it would dominate the focus.

 

I would argue that making action RPG combat as complex as Ninja Gaiden's would also dominate the focus. Comparing difficult action RPG's and difficult rules based RPG's is not valid, since playing RPG's is a more intellectual pursuit, and requiring terrific reflexes and lightning thinking would simply exclude most RPG players. You'll notice that both Aliens and AP have shooter combat, which is already a lot more accessible than NG type combat.

 

What it comes down to for me combat in an RPG is just not that important, unless it completely bores me. That's why my 2 favorite games are still KOTOR's, even if almost no one would play those games just for the combat.

[Xard]

Yeah, it's too dogmatic from certain pov.

 

However I very much agree on those central dogmas and you didn't explain why those dogmas are false

 

sure we did. is 'cause they is simply opinions. start from pov that Cannism is Only or Right way to do something is... wacky. again, we is talking 'bout game development, not religious dogma, so notion o' canon is misplaced.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Ahh, but so is everything, at least in my nonreligious worldview. I'm relativist.

 

Not to push armchair philosophising here (there's enough in PS:T tangent) but that's reason why I pretty much follow Plato's definition of ("objective") truth as "truth is well argued true belief" (free translation by me)

 

And what VD does is arguing for his true beliefs and I find core of those arguments to be very well found on. I have no reason to dismiss or criticise them down to nothing. There's stuff I disagree with - the utter moral greyness in instances where it doesn't fit and is only "original" revising such as his take on SW Ep III - but his core arguments what constitutes roleplaying are very easy to agree on.

 

Just because those are just opinions doesn't mean there isn't seed of (subjective/objective) truth in them.

 

Anyway, that's enough for this. I don't want to be part in creating THIRD separate tangent in such short while here in OE

[Moatilliatta]

So could one of you dweller followers recite his mantras? I don't know them.

[Xard]

So could one of you dweller followers recite his mantras? I don't know them.

 

ask WoD lol

 

edit: this is to say as part of Iron Tower forums he must know many good links to interviews and stuff

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[newc0253]

So could one of you dweller followers recite his mantras? I don't know them.

better still, chant them.

 

i have no idea who this VD is, except that he has very unfortunate initials.

[Xard]

Age of Decadence

[Gromnir]

"Just because those are just opinions doesn't mean there isn't seed of (subjective/objective) truth in them."

 

of course there ain't no truth in his opinions... not as he or you state.

 

what is Correct elements of RPG?

 

what is non-linear?

 

what is Proper role of combat in a crpg?

 

bah.

 

is no proper or right. is not like non-linear or rpg or other such game terms were developed through painstaking scientific process. were simply convenient labels that merchants o' games and/or geek gamers/developers comes up with at some point in past. is no Truth.

 

explain why xard likes, but try to bolster by pretending that you got some kinda hold on truth is bs. if your start point is that there is a True or Proper, then you is just as deluded as vd.

 

bunch o' clowns arguing over what is best flavor.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the best flavor for ice cream is vanilla... and best pudding flavor is pistachio

Edited August 29, 2008 by Gromnir

[Wrath of Dagon]

So could one of you dweller followers recite his mantras? I don't know them.

 

ask WoD lol

 

edit: this is to say as part of Iron Tower forums he must know many good links to interviews and stuff

See this: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=231.0

[Moatilliatta]

@Xard

Whoa no! All I want is a few sentences summarizing what VD believes an RPG makes. If I were interested enough that I would read interviews then I would have done so already.

 

@WoD

I've only skimmed it but it doesn't really tell me anything but multiple choice with at least one non-combat choice.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Moatilliatta

[Krookie]

Ok lets get nit picky at combat eh? Fallout series. Target shot to the head and especially to the eyes should be instant death, which they are not. If you didn't score a critical it only knocked a few hit points off them. Kotor series, blaster fire at some one who isn't wearing armor should either cripple the target or outright kill them depending on where they were hit. Same goes with lightsabers. Hell lightsabers can cut thru most armor.

 

Uhhh, I'm pretty sure you can have awesome combat mechanics without realism.

[Xard]

is no proper or right. is not like non-linear or rpg or other such game terms were developed through painstaking scientific process. were simply convenient labels that merchants o' games and/or geek gamers/developers comes up with at some point in past. is no Truth.

 

explain why xard likes, but try to bolster by pretending that you got some kinda hold on truth is bs. if your start point is that there is a True or Proper, then you is just as deluded as vd.

 

If I have to painfully specific I mean his takes on choices and consequences, roleplaying, importance of skills and character deviation through them etc

 

I think Vince's liking for non-linearity etc. is part of his overall design philosophy, not what are requirements for good roleplaying in CRPG.

 

edit:

 

You are standing in front of a fortress and dying to get inside because that's where all the cool kids are. There is a gate, but it's guarded. You need a pass to enter. Your options are:

 

- knock some sense into the guards with your war hammer and go inside.

- persuade the guards to let you in: Hi there! I'm with the Tavern Food & Service Inspection Agency. We've heard rumors that you have rats running around in every cellar. Well, it's ****ing better be a misunderstanding because if I see a single rodent-looking mother****er - which includes this rat-faced bastard over there - I'm shutting this evil fortress down TONIGHT! Now open that ****ing door already!

- ask around about the pass, find out who has one, and either steal it or trade it for something.

- create a diversion - Look behind you, a three-headed monkey! - and sneak inside. Or hire some thugs to attack the guards and while the guards are busy breaking some heads, sneak inside.

- wall-climbing text-adventures are fun and very ninja-like: your dagger blade snaps with a loud noise and you plummet to your death cursing stupid non-combat gameplay.

- impersonate an officer - Atten-hut! Is that how you salute an officer of the watch, swine? Stop eyeballing me! You're not worthy to look your superiors in the eye. Stand straight, eyes forward! What is the name of your commanding officer?

- bribe your way in.

- forge a fake pass using your knowledge of what a real pass looks like and skills (lore, literacy, scribing, etc)

 

Let's count now. Eight different ways to get in, only one requires bashing someone's head. As you can see, non-combat solutions are the core of role-playing because that's where the choices are. Figuring out what you can do in this situation is infinitely more interesting than checking your blade, putting on your reinforced hockey helmet, gulping a potion, and charging the guards.

 

I'd add to that you can roleplay in combat too (not drink any potions etc. because your character has potionphobia or something ) but really, what's to whine about in that?

 

That is of course on ideological level, free of constraints of resources and development. You CAN'T throw that much options to player all the time in CRPG like you can in pnp, but the basic philosophy is sound

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[Wrath of Dagon]

@WoD

I've only skimmed it but it doesn't really tell me anything but multiple choice with at least one non-combat choice.

No, it means that there are actually multiple paths through the game, which are cognizant of your skill set.

 

Here's Vince's interview with J.E. Sawyer btw: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=444.0

Edited August 29, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Kelverin]

Never played Bloodlines so I have no opinion on that game.

 

As far as other RPG's I really have no issue's with the one's I have played, not a fan of Morrowind, Fallout combat was rewarding I thought, I have enjoyed all the IE games, the only one I did not care for was during the end of PS:T, I just rushed through to get to the end. The Kotor's are pretty easy, and not to challenging, if you make the right character (choosing multiple combat options) when you level up, it can be fun.The thing that bothers me most about the combat, other than it's too easy is the is big option box superimposed on the action, I want to see what I'm fighting. I recently died playing K2 last night, but that's because I went solo when I should not have, but there is a difficulty slider and the game is more challenging when you do not take any NPC's with you.

 

Big fan of TOEE combat system and the game is really a mixed bag, but the combat was fun, challenging and more memorable then either IE or NWN1 and 2, despite what Volo, and Xard say.

 

The main problem I have in RPG's combat, is there is too much of it, and the repetitiveness of it all. Hell you take away most of the time spent in repetitive combat and all the time, picking up loot from encounters and you have a 5 hour game. Make the game challenging and the encounters more memorable, increase the computers AI, hell cheat with the die rolls if you have to, I am not saying do it all the time, but during the times it matters.

 

I know this is out from left field and I most likely don't know what the hell I am talking about, but study programing/codes from sports games and see how it could be used for RPG combat encounters, the AI in sports games seem to be so much better then there RPG counterparts.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Kelverin