TSL Restoration Project: The Phantom Deadline, READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING.

[Rywavi]

Not to detract from this wildly entertaining flame-fest you two have going, but after reading through this monster thread, I had a couple thoughts.

 

It seems that, whenever anyone asks if TG can just release what they have already done, we get the response of "It'll be done when it's done"

 

That's all well and good, but no one ever said releasing the information that's there has to be the end of the project. Take WinZIP, WinRAR, 7Zip, etc. - all of them have both complete versions and beta versions. They didn't start out that way. When coming out with a program or a patch, you start with the closed beta, and move on to the OPEN beta. Going straight from closed beta to release is pretty much impossible. And also a waste of time, because by releasing an incomplete version, you give people a taste of what you're doing. I understand that there has been a leaked version of this, but that was what, 4 months ago? Since those posts, progress has halted, and it's obvious why: complacency. Same workers, same testers, same results.

 

"Oh, you found another bug. Okay, yeah, I'll get right on that...just let me play through what we've already done, because we've only got a handful of problems left, and the game is livable in its current state." I've seen a lot of comments about how "It's not finished!" and "I'm not saying this is a playable state, but..." Let other people besides you beta-testers, who nit-pick every single detail to make sure everything correct (The Handmaiden is standing on the wrong side of the exile!), decide if it's playable or not. Honestly, without mods, The Sith Lords is playable. A lot of people can deal with, as listed on Mantis:

 

Unassigned [^] (1 - 5 / 5)

0001035

Bao-Dur's speech at the Excavation site - niftification?

[Team Gizka] 233TEL - 10-27-08 06:22

0001034

Misaligned Door at Czerka Restoration site

[Team Gizka] 233TEL - 10-23-08 14:59

0001033

Benok's goon decides to stay in the cantina

[Team Gizka] 207TEL - 10-23-08 14:59

0001032

Atton reaction jumps to cells...

[Team Gizka] 202TEL - 10-23-08 14:39

0001031

Exile's Insomnia

[Team Gizka] 203TEL - 10-23-08 14:34

 

5 issues. Compared to the 1006 you've fixed. You're kidding, right? 5 out of 1011. Of the 1011 problems in the game you found, 0.4945% were left unsolved. Most game developers don't do that well. I can't think of even *one* developer that released a game that had less than 5 bugs (I realize these are just the ones that have been found - same goes for developers). If I were on the team, I'd say make it a final release, and we'll update it again after we fix those 5. But I understand the drive for perfection. My wife's a bit of a perfectionist. So put out a temporary *BETA* version for those of us who aren't perfectionists in everything we do. Ever play Sims? Now *there's* a game that needs fixing. They've stopped working on Sims 2 for Sims 3, and my Sims still have visitors abduct their babies when they leave the lot on occasion.

 

TL;DR: Beta download for those of us who aren't perfectionists, please.

[Darth_Windu]

Firstly I just want to say that I don't consider this a flame-fest, it's just a disagreement.

 

Anyway I understand your point, but the mod honestly isn't in good enough form to be released. Most of the restored content is releasable - the battle of Khoonda; Malachor V; the HK-50's and so on. BUT the main issue at the moment is the HK factory. Firstly there are no journal entries at all, so you really don't know what you're supposed to be doing. Secondly there's a bug (which I found and reported) that means the scene doesn't end in the way that it's supposed to. Hell I even ended up with one where HK-47 died inside the factory, and then the Exile and Atton appeared inside! That simply isn't releasable.

 

As for us beta testers being picky sure we are, but then we're supposed to be. Our job is to let the team know about bugs in the mod and whilst the major ones are what we look for, the team also wants to know about smaller issues including down to basic text issues. Are they important to release? Not really, but the team wants the mod as polished as possible before release.

 

At the end of the day, as I said, the mod as it stands just isn't releasable. I have no doubts it will be once Dash is able to get working on it again, but until then people are going to have to be patient. I know it sucks especially because the mod is so anticipated, but at least you know you'll get a quality product at the end.

[Hassat Hunter]

"Oh, you found another bug. Okay, yeah, I'll get right on that...just let me play through what we've already done, because we've only got a handful of problems left, and the game is livable in its current state." I've seen a lot of comments about how "It's not finished!" and "I'm not saying this is a playable state, but..." Let other people besides you beta-testers, who nit-pick every single detail to make sure everything correct (The Handmaiden is standing on the wrong side of the exile!), decide if it's playable or not. Honestly, without mods, The Sith Lords is playable. A lot of people can deal with, as listed on Mantis:

 

Someone calling? 1.0b8 features around 2 dozen gamebreaking bugs (browse my reports on page 1 and 10). 4 have since been fixed (source: Mantis). That means there are atleast 20 gamebreaking bugs remaining inside TSLRP. Does this mean it becomes unplayable? Nope. Does it means you have to watch your steps or otherwise you get inrevocably stuck? Yes. Is the HK-factory in reality still a huge mess? Yes. Do I wonder why the TG-testers report minor stuff like that you wrote, instead of the major issues still remaining (and easy to find)? Yes. Apparently Militiades does know about a lot of the unmentioned gamebreaking issues, but hasn't logged them onto Mantis yet, for some reason. So yeah, the "final" release is still pretty far away, and our leak is unfortunately the nearest to "open Beta" we get. And if you don't mind wathcing your step and know all the workarounds for the known issues it is quite enjoyable.

[Rywavi]

Firstly I just want to say that I don't consider this a flame-fest, it's just a disagreement.

 

Anyway I understand your point, but the mod honestly isn't in good enough form to be released. Most of the restored content is releasable - the battle of Khoonda; Malachor V; the HK-50's and so on. BUT the main issue at the moment is the HK factory. Firstly there are no journal entries at all, so you really don't know what you're supposed to be doing. Secondly there's a bug (which I found and reported) that means the scene doesn't end in the way that it's supposed to. Hell I even ended up with one where HK-47 died inside the factory, and then the Exile and Atton appeared inside! That simply isn't releasable.

 

As for us beta testers being picky sure we are, but then we're supposed to be. Our job is to let the team know about bugs in the mod and whilst the major ones are what we look for, the team also wants to know about smaller issues including down to basic text issues. Are they important to release? Not really, but the team wants the mod as polished as possible before release.

 

At the end of the day, as I said, the mod as it stands just isn't releasable. I have no doubts it will be once Dash is able to get working on it again, but until then people are going to have to be patient. I know it sucks especially because the mod is so anticipated, but at least you know you'll get a quality product at the end.

 

Alright, I was under the impression that the HK factory bug had been fixed (as that's what it's listed under on the site). I didn't mean the picky comment to be insulting in any way, having beta testers that aren't picky means games never get released, or when they do, they're filled with bugs *cough*Sims 2*cough*. If I had known the HK Factory issue was still present, I wouldn't have mentioned it . As always, never ass u me. Thanks for listening to my rants, and *please* keep us posted on what's going on. Following a project isn't nearly as frustrating if we know someone's working on it. Even if it's "I opened up notepad and fixed Bao-dur's speech typo"

Edited November 15, 2008 by Rywavi

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Wesp5 is becoming quite the famous person modifying Troika's work.

 

Most of his work only breaks **** -that he has to come back and fix, hence the inflated "patch" numbers- and dumbs down the game.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Darth_Windu]

Ah yes, the Atton/Exile inside the factory was fixed. The problem though is that various fixes cause different problems. For example bug 997 - the first few times I played it, the scene ended the way it was supposed to, but something changed it to operate as it is now, which still hasn't been fixed.

[Hassat Hunter]

Most of his work only breaks **** -that he has to come back and fix, hence the inflated "patch" numbers- and dumb down the game.

 

Ooh... I agree. I just use 1.12 and am fine with it.

Doesn't change the fact he became quite the celebritiy in Vtm:B's fanbase because of his modifications of Troika's work.

[Darth_Windu]

Oh and just to drive the final nail into the coffin -

 

Emperor Devon: I don't know if you're allowed to give an official opinion or not on this (by all means ignore it if you're not! ) but what are your thoughts on Team Gizka's restoration project? What do you think of what they're doing, is it something you're glad about?

 

Chris Avellone: No opinions, though hypothetically I might be incredibly happy that the material is being used for its intended purpose and am extremely grateful to those doing it. Thank you, Team Gizka.

 

(Source - http://www.starwarsknights.com/fullstory.php?id=386)

[racofer]

What seperates TG from all these guys? Please tell me, aside from TSL being more clearly broken then these games...

 

The fact they actually released something (which is brilliant) and allow other people to modify or improve their work instead of being so butt hurt about it all the time?

 

On a few specific points:

People think "The Sith Lords" and the first things that comes to mind is "Team-Gizka".

I think that's going a bit far. A lot far, actually. Obsidian made TSL, LucasArts published it. TSLRP is just a mod, and lots of games have mods.

 

Steve, then please search for kotor 2 in google. Team Gizka's page comes before lucasarts in the first page, and obsidian's not even there.

Edited November 15, 2008 by racofer

[Hassat Hunter]

Last time I checked Wesp5 made a HUGE fuss over content of his mod being adjusted. I am not even talking of the whole "True Patch" stuff, but another user who wanted to even cut the alterations out of his basic patch, so what was left were only bugfixes, NO modifications.

Wesp5 pretty much freaked out, looking at forumposts on Forumplanet (Bloodlines sub).

 

Maybe that's because OE doesn't even have a KOTOR2 page hosted? Type in "KOTOR". Only BioWare... no LA link in sight...

[SteveThaiBinh]

It hits Wikipedia before Team Gizka. That doesn't mean that people associate Wikipedia with KotOR2, just that it's a place people go to for information, as is Team Gizka (since they have a progress update feature).

[Foamhead]

So, what about that website? What about the forums? What about the gamesite interviews? What about the various threads in multiple game forums? Nope, Team-Gizka is not big headed.

 

Calling someone big-headed has nothing to do with forcing people into anything. It has to do with big egos.

 

Team-Gizka, "We are the saviors of The Sith Lords".

 

Knights of the Old Republic 2, we feel, is a fantastic game. It's also undoubtedly a wounded game: a lonely game that knows it's incomplete as it is but just can't bear to admit it to itself. It's okay, KOTOR2. We're here for you. Shhhh. We're here.

 

Team-Gizka, "We're here for yeah. We will save you!"

 

Messiah complex?

 

"The Sith Lords" is just fine the way it is, and no one should hijack a game title to get famous.

 

 

I know that I for one wish I could surf MTV or the late night talk shows just once without Team Gizka being mentioned by yet another celebrity.

 

I see - so everyone that has a website has a massive ego then? Heaven forbid they make a website to, gosh I don't know, inform people about something they might be interested in? I don't see you going around attacking every mod WIP forum thread ever created, so why the TG-hate I wonder?

So, you're oky with hijacking someone's hardwork to gain notability? I don't hate Team-Gizka for being modders, but I do have a problem with them hijacking someone's property. Obsidian and Lucas Arts have granted fans with the rights to modify game elements, but did they give us a right to become famous for it? You focused only on their website, but you are only narrowing on a small piece.

 

Example ::

You create a website of your own, and someone else comes around and take's your images (or work). They say, "These look unfinished, so we are going to fix them." They end up opening a website, several forum threads, take some interviews, and then open a forum of their own. They even create a logo that will now be placed on your images, and they make video clips of the work they are doing. All the hard work you put into those pictures is being hijack by another person. Suddenly, when people say, "Darth Windu's pictures", the first thing that comes to mind is, "That guy who is finishing them". Your name has become hijacked by another individual, and they are getting famous for your hardwork. Yes, you may let people do modifications, but do you really want them to become famous for your work? People will be talking about how Darth Windu didn't finish his images, and how great the second party is for finishing them. Does that seem right to you?

 

If you can answer 'yes' to the above, there is something seriously wrong.

 

Small modifications are pretty respectable, but Team-Gizka's level of modifications and notibility is wrong. Obsidian is a great hardworking company, and they should be asking themselves, "Do we really want people to hijack our client's product, so they can become famous for something that doesn't belong to them? Are we in a position to allow this type of hijacking to continue, and to allow them the freedom to get famous off of our client's product?"

 

Right at this very moment, this thread is sending a message. People may not like it, but it is sending a clear message. You go to school for game designing, you get a degree in game designing, you work for our company, so that fans can hijack your work to get famous off of it. That bites! Why would I want to work for a company who would allow outsiders to gain prestege off of my education and work. I put long hours and money into gaining an education, to look for a job, to work on a game, so that someone like Team-Gizka can get famous off of my work. That blows. Why in the world would I want to work for a company that allows Team-Gizka's level of modifications and notibility? Obsidian is becoming established under their new name, but their first game as one company has become hijacked by Team-Gizka. That stinks.

 

Before anyone races to defend them, I want you to thinks about your replay for a minute. Reread this post carefully. How would you feel if it happened to you?

 

 

As a budding game designer myself i'll field this one:

 

I wouldn't give a flying monkey wang what people did to my game after they bought it. If they wanted to skin every character to look like Ron Jeremy or change all the spoken dialogue to musical burps...they bought the game it is now theirs to disassemble and mod to their hearts content.

 

I certainly don't like team Gizka or their foot dragging pace but you are being a total jackass.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Foamhead

[Marcus]

Oh and just to drive the final nail into the coffin -

 

Chris Avellone: No opinions, though hypothetically I might be incredibly happy that the material is being used for its intended purpose and am extremely grateful to those doing it. Thank you, Team Gizka.

 

This doesn't drive any type of nail into anything. I wasn't talking about the mod's legality through Lucas Arts or Obsidian's eyes. You seem to have misunderstood where I was coming from, but I'm not going to go back over all those posts. I have seen several comments on this site and their forums to believe they and their fans are big headed. That is not going to change in my opinion. I see a fineline between being a simple modder and a ego stroking modder. I'm not necessarily saying the whole project should end, but I'm saying that Team-Gizka's big headed attitude will not win anyone over.

 

My other questions were legit in another way. Should modder's hold themselves responsible for going too far? Where does obsessiveness end and realism begin? How far is any game developer going to allow modder's (such in scale as Team-Gizka) to ride on the back's of their work?

 

I don't think modding groups this massive will exist in the future. BioWare's revelation about turning the KotOR franchise into a MMO will bring an end to this type of hijacking. The Restoration Project is way too big in scale and notability for my taste, and I do not see myself and others I know applying to Obsidian if its allowed in the future. Its a double-edged sword. Protect the developers and artists, or people will just walk away. Small scale modding is fine, but this is just way too big.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Marcus

[Theseus]

Oh and just to drive the final nail into the coffin -

 

Emperor Devon: I don't know if you're allowed to give an official opinion or not on this (by all means ignore it if you're not! ) but what are your thoughts on Team Gizka's restoration project? What do you think of what they're doing, is it something you're glad about?

 

Chris Avellone: No opinions, though hypothetically I might be incredibly happy that the material is being used for its intended purpose and am extremely grateful to those doing it. Thank you, Team Gizka.

 

(Source - http://www.starwarsknights.com/fullstory.php?id=386)

To bad Team Gizka wouldnt thank somebody else for taking on TSLRP. Such as Chris Avellone Did to Team-Gizka. It would be another passing sort of the torch...

 

Kudos to Chris for not letting his ego come in the way or progress!

 

Team-Gizka I hope you guys figure out your problems.

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't think modding groups this massive will exist in the future.

 

Funny. TG is peanuts compared to most other big mods. Entire REAL developerteams take time to make a modification, for free! Some of them then work on Battlefield Vietnam for example , or ingame at Valve.

A game I am working on right now has 7 people working on it (and more than a dozen in the past). Damn, that's already bigger than TG!

 

Do you have any idea how modding goes, any? From comments such as quoted I seriously doubt it...

[Darth_Windu]

Well Marcus, considering you were attacking TG for restoring the deleted content and were claiming that TSL was fine as it is, I think your argument has been shot to tiny little pieces.

[Marcus]

You know what? I do not even care anymore. "Team-Gizka" does not matter anymore. Huh... I hit a mild stone in thought. Who really cares. While people are in here treating this thing like the second coming, I'm going out to the real world where things matter the most. "Team-Gizka" is a collective of game players who have absolutely no bearing on my life. I got trapped in their web of obsessiveness, and now its time to open a new book. Huh... They are a bunch of whinny fans who disliked the current version of "The Sith Lords", so they have taken this whole thing into a new realm of obsessiveness. Huh... Good luck dealing with those issues. I can not believe I got caught up in their obsession. Go figure. They need years of mental help.

 

I heard Obsidian's "Neverwinter Nights 2"'s expansion is almost ready for release. Go Obsidian!

Edited November 16, 2008 by Marcus

[Deadly_Nightshade]

You know what? I do not even care anymore.

 

In other words you've whined about the project for months and, now that people have destroyed your "arguments", you're running away.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I am sure we can be more civil with one another in this thread.

 

I know quite a lot when it comes to modding or bug fixing in games. Been at it since 1998. Its an unpaid hobby that takes up one's free time. The only payment we get is thanks and appreciation from the people who play the games. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither are large scale operation like fixing a broken or unfinished game especially when you don't have the tools that the developers used.

 

Now that I had my say, lets get back to some civil discussion.

[Meshugger]

From what i gather, Dashus hasn't been involved since the first of september. Apparently, it is due to personal reasons. But it also seems like he his the one pulling threads or so to speak, since he is the buildmaster. Doesn't Team-Gizka have anyone that can replace him? By the looks of it, the project seems to be at a complete stall at the moment. Surely there has to be people out there with more motivation and equal knowledge, right?

[Darth_Windu]

As far as I'm aware, no, Dash is needed. Unfortunately he hasn't been in contact for some time because of personal reasons, which of course take precedance. My understanding though is that no-one else can fill his shoes at the moment.

[The Yeti of 66]

You know what? I do not even care anymore. "Team-Gizka" does not matter anymore. Huh... I hit a mild stone in thought. Who really cares. While people are in here treating this thing like the second coming, I'm going out to the real world where things matter the most. "Team-Gizka" is a collective of game players who have absolutely no bearing on my life. I got trapped in their web of obsessiveness, and now its time to open a new book. Huh... They are a bunch of whinny fans who disliked the current version of "The Sith Lords", so they have taken this whole thing into a new realm of obsessiveness. Huh... Good luck dealing with those issues. I can not believe I got caught up in their obsession. Go figure. They need years of mental help.

 

I heard Obsidian's "Neverwinter Nights 2"'s expansion is almost ready for release. Go Obsidian!

Sigh. This isn't someone stealing their work, this is someone implementing it. Your analogy of having someone modify your work is wrong, because that's not what is happening. It would be more like you writing a book, but your publisher wasn't being fully cooperative to your ideas, so you had to leave huge things out and change a lot of things. Now later a group comes around and writes in those parts that you left out. Sure, that group gets notice for it, but in the end they are only showing off your genius. Obsidian is getting their extra work thrown in for free, I don't see the problem here.

 

I know you think the modders need a lesson in humility, but the community hyped this thing up as much or perhaps moreso than the modders did so... chill.

[Meshugger]

As far as I'm aware, no, Dash is needed. Unfortunately he hasn't been in contact for some time because of personal reasons, which of course take precedance. My understanding though is that no-one else can fill his shoes at the moment.

 

i see...

 

I recommend keeping your options open for new buildmaster.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Meshugger

[Darth_Windu]

Well I have complete faith in Dash, I'm sure he'll be back. Keep in mind though that I'm just a closed beta tester, and not part of TG, so even if there was a problem with Dash I wouldn't be involved at all.

[refuse]

I gather that one of the major issues with the progress is the HK Factory. How about making that aspect of the game inaccessible (or take you straight to the end of related quests, with a simple datapab briefly explaining 'the rest of this quest will be implemented in the upcoming update, look out and god bless satan'), focus on tidying up the rest of your work, and release it?

 

Since this project began there have been quite a few talented modders who have appeared on the lucasforums, who might be of assistance, by giving you a different or fresh perspective. Especially since the project leader is unable to work on it at the moment, it could be quite beneficial in the projects development. Just a thought.