Oblivion

[Slowtrain]

Could you elaborate a bit there? I'm genuinely curious because I'm thinking of firing this game up myself and don't really know whose opinion to trust.

 

 

Just remember: if you are playing the vanilla Oblivion version, the rule of thumb for character design is to place the skills that are most important to your class in your minor slots and put the least important skills that you don't plan to use in your major slots and then use those unimportant skills to control your leveling speed.

 

When the game was first release most people played it this way until mods started appearing that changed how the leveling mechanics worked.

[Checkpoint]

Could you elaborate a bit there? I'm genuinely curious because I'm thinking of firing this game up myself and don't really know whose opinion to trust.

 

 

Just remember: if you are playing the vanilla Oblivion version, the rule of thumb for character design is to place the skills that are most important to your class in your minor slots and put the least important skills that you don't plan to use in your major slots and then use those unimportant skills to control your leveling speed.

 

When the game was first release most people played it this way until mods started appearing that changed how the leveling mechanics worked.

I've already been informed by my cousin that the game isn't worth playing unmodded, so mods are a must for me. I just want to know in what ways these mods improve the game, and if they in turn make the game worth playing (and I trust my cousin's judgment on this because we usually have a pretty similar taste when it comes to games).

 

But I suppose if I do play it, I'll ask him and also have a look at the mods suggested in this thread. Only some suggestions seem to be conflicting, even in terms of compatibility and not just general awesomeness/uselessness.

[Hell Kitty]

I think you really need to play a bit first before deciding what mods you want. A mod that seems awesome to someone else might be a waste of bandwidth to you.

[Moatilliatta]

I think you really need to play a bit first before deciding what mods you want. A mod that seems awesome to someone else might be a waste of bandwidth to you.

Perhaps the most intelligent answer yet. Play a bit and take notice of the things that annoy you.

 

I also want to voice the opinion that it is in no way impossible or unlikely that people will dislike unmodded Oblivion as it isn't quite as bad as most people make it out to be.

[Slowtrain]

I also want to voice the opinion that it is in no way impossible or unlikely that people will dislike unmodded Oblivion as it isn't quite as bad as most people make it out to be.

 

 

I think a better way to put it is: the bad things about Oblivion may bother people less or more depending on how important that particular aspect of a crpg is to them.

 

Despite the many bad things I say about Oblivion, I have played it as a lot simply because I love exploration-heavy, non-linear crpgs. So when I play, I simply ignore or look past the bad things about the game. But I stil notice the problems. Every time I pass an NPC farmer who switches from fur to leather to mithril to elven to glass the moment my PC levels, I feel like banging my head aginst the wall. IT IS SO DUMB TO DO THAT IN A GAME. Talk about devaluing player accomplishment.

 

I just can't stand it.

[Moatilliatta]

...I have played it as a lot simply because I love exploration-heavy, non-linear crpgs.

Good man/girl/woman/person/thing. I approve!

I think a better way to put it is: the bad things about Oblivion may bother people less or more depending on how important that particular aspect of a crpg is to them.

I just can't stand it.

Yeah, I guess I'm a bit too acceptive as I've always seen Bethesda games as being quite silly. Morrowind had a combat system where you could hit people and still miss. I'm not even gonna touch Daggerfall. I've become sort of immune to their sillyness and just judge them by the raw gameplay value.

[RangerSG]

I absolutely have to have the mods that remove the auto-leveling NPC silliness from Oblivion. The idea of simple farmers and bandits having gear I gutted myself more drives me bonkers too. I also have to have the haks to improve PC appearance, because otherwise I have to fiddle for an hour to come up with a PC that isn't revolting to look at.

 

I love the exploration. And the Dark Brotherhood plot is 'almost' worth the price of the game in itself. It really is, to me, an exceptional storyline. And Lucian Lachance is easily the best voiced NPC in the game. That all serves to throw into stark relief how mediocre the rest of it is (other than Sean Bean's contribution). The problem is that the new combat system is frustrating because one trip through any lair and even the heaviest armor is rendered as useful as a robe. I would like an armor degradation system that actually made sense. Elder Scroll's never did, and the Oblivion system just sheds more light on how screwy it is.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...otherwise I have to fiddle for an hour to come up with a PC that isn't revolting to look at.

 

Really? I always found the system fairly easy to work with.

[Slowtrain]

I love the exploration. And the Dark Brotherhood plot is 'almost' worth the price of the game in itself. It really is, to me, an exceptional storyline. And Lucian Lachance is easily the best voiced NPC in the game. That all serves to throw into stark relief how mediocre the rest of it is (other than Sean Bean's contribution). The problem is that the new combat system is frustrating because one trip through any lair and even the heaviest armor is rendered as useful as a robe. I would like an armor degradation system that actually made sense. Elder Scroll's never did, and the Oblivion system just sheds more light on how screwy it is.

 

 

The DB story arc is absolutely the best part of the game. The whole DB aspect of the game has a feel and an atmosphere that the rest of the game is sorely lacking.

 

And I also agree that the armor/weapon damage system is absurd. It basically forces every character to become a master amororer or spend most of the game in broken armor. WHich is my single biggest complaint about the unmodded game: that every player character basically ends up as the SAME character. The armorer skill shoudl have been better integrated into the game so that it was a valuable skill for a melee-based character to have, but it was not required for every type of player character to use it.

 

 

Most of the skils are poorly realized, imo.

 

I, personally, do not think that the Bethesda designers put together a well-designed game. It has a ton of logic flaws as well as just bad design implementations.

[Xard]

And as long as Nightandshape doesn't offer any kind of (beliavable) backing for his criticism you're winning

[Moatilliatta]

And I also agree that the armor/weapon damage system is absurd. It basically forces every character to become a master amororer or spend most of the game in broken armor. WHich is my single biggest complaint about the unmodded game: that every player character basically ends up as the SAME character. The armorer skill shoudl have been better integrated into the game so that it was a valuable skill for a melee-based character to have, but it was not required for every type of player character to use it.

1) I'm pretty sure that you can buy repair service in stores.

2) You don't NEED certain skills. Armorer is just a way of always having top-notch weapons without returning to town and later on having 25% better weapons. You have a point as to locks and every character NEEDING either high alteration or high lockpicking (if we ignore super-reflex-super-hearing wizkids) but besides that you don't need anything as the games supplies everything from potions to repair services. Hell you could probably do without the lock defeating skills through clever scrolls use.

I've personally played many different characters that had completely different skill sets.

 

Also in case you want to take the argument all the way, yes, every character becomes the same in the end since they can reach 100 in all skills, but does anyone really play that long? and why should Bethesda keep them from becoming gods?

 

Most of the skils are poorly realized, imo.

What do you mean?

[Slowtrain]

1) I'm pretty sure that you can buy repair service in stores.

 

 

Yes, you can. Any smith or armorer will repair, plus so will the fighter guild stewards and the Fighter's Guild smith in Chorrol. WHich is fine. I have no problem with that.

 

2) You don't NEED certain skills. Armorer is just a way of always having top-notch weapons without returning to town and later on having 25% better weapons.

 

Technically, you are correct. It is not actually required to use the armorer skill. You could choose to return to a smith after each fight and pay for a repair. However, due to the combat intensive nature of Oblivion, your armor will be pretty much totally broken within the span of a few combats, leaving you with a choice of either continuing with broken armor, breaking off combat after a few rooms and returning to town, or using your armorer skill. Unless you are really into LARPing, you are going to choose to use your armorer skill because its the least painful way to play the game. To me, that appears to be game design forcing ever character to use the armorer skill. But you are right, technically, you do not have to.

 

You have a point as to locks and every character NEEDING either high alteration or high lockpicking (if we ignore super-reflex-super-hearing wizkids)

 

 

I could say a lot on the whole lockpicking issue, none of it very complimentary to Oblivion. I'll just mention a couple points here briefly. First of all the lockpicking minigame is totally broken: I can pick any lock in the game with only a 5 skill and almost never break a pick. No matter how good I am at manipulating the lockpick GUI, that should be totally impossible. If it is not, what is the point of having a "skill" in the first place if it is totally unneccessary to actually suceeding? WHy can my character who is a Nord warrior with a brain the size of a pea and these enormous calloused hands that swing gigantic warhammers all day long pick every single lock in the game just as easily as my wood elf thief-specialized character? Shouldn't my thief character gain some special advantage from having a high agility and lockpicking as a major skill? ISn't that part and parcel of building charcters in a CRPG? Apparently not in Oblivion.

 

 

On a side note, I will grant that the lockpicking in MW was pretty much just as bad, although in a different way since it was totally skill based.

 

but besides that you don't need anything as the games supplies everything from potions to repair services. Hell you could probably do without the lock defeating skills through clever scrolls use.)

 

 

I'm not entire sure what this means.

 

I've personally played many different characters that had completely different skill sets..)

 

SO have I. And please not I am not criticizing Oblivion for having skill sets that aren't playable. I am criticizing Oblivion for having every character as a jack of all trades. Whether your lockpicking skill is major or minor, whether your starting agility is 30 or 65, whether you are thief specialized or mage specialized, none of it makes any practical difference to how your character deals with locks.

 

 

Also in case you want to take the argument all the way, yes, every character becomes the same in the end since they can reach 100 in all skills, but does anyone really play that long? and why should Bethesda keep them from becoming gods?..)

 

I don't think it really has to do with attaining the same theoretical maximum in stats or skills. rather it is that gameplay is not significantly different for characters with different skill setups. Yes, you as the human player can CHOOSE to make it different by adopting "house rules" or LARPing, but the game itself doesn't do anything to make skill choices significant. WHich as I said several posts ago makes me wonder why there are major/minor skill tiers or even seperate skills at all.

 

 

Most of the skils are poorly realized, imo.

What do you mean?

 

Well, I won't go through every skill here, but I basically just mean that most of the skills are either not well integrated into the game or are not well thought out in design.

 

A couple examples:

 

Speechcraft: Has no real use in game, either in general play or in story play. The speechcraft mingame is more broken than the lockpicking mingame. WHy is this stupid skill in the game at all? They cut short blade and spears and left this one? Ridiculous.

 

 

Light armor/Heavy armor: They are for all intents the exact same skill and become more identical as they develop. They both end up providing roughly the same level of protection at roughly the same encumberance. WHy not just save time and simply have one armor skill? If you are goign to have 2 armor skills they shoudl be different. For example: as light armor skill increases the armor becomes less encumbering but never becomes more protecting; as heavy armor skill increases it becomes more protecing but never less encumbering If dones that way the choice would be more significant and actually have a major impact on your player characters play style.

 

 

 

Needless to say this is all just my opnion, of course. I am not trying to say I am neccessarily right. (Though I probably am ) I just see these as the flaws that bother me while I am playing the game. I'm sure some people aren't the least bit bothered by them.

[Hurlshort]

I think Oblivion is also a good game if you don't level up much. My first run through got me to about level 10 and I didn't notice too many problems that I've heard about. That was about 20 hours of gaming, which is plenty for me to feel I got my moneys worth. I think I got about halway through the campaign, I was closing Oblivion gates to get towns to send my mountain retreat some support. That's where I felt it got repetitive.

[Slowtrain]

I think Oblivion is also a good game if you don't level up much. My first run through got me to about level 10 and I didn't notice too many problems that I've heard about. That was about 20 hours of gaming, which is plenty for me to feel I got my moneys worth. I think I got about halway through the campaign, I was closing Oblivion gates to get towns to send my mountain retreat some support. That's where I felt it got repetitive.

 

 

I think that's a good point. Having an actual hard level cap at a relatively low level say 10 or 12 would help to make your initial choices more significant. But we all know that the first thing people would scream for is a level cap remover. But that would then be a good choice for an optional mod.

 

I am not saying that Oblivion should or should not be a ceratin way, btw. Mostly what I am saying is that much of Oblivion's design is not terribly logical. IE: If you want to spend the time to put skill choices into a game, you should make them meaningful; if you don't want to make them meaningful, just don't put them in. Rather in the case of Oblivion, it appears that the developers went to all the trouble to put skills in, but then went to all this trouble to make them not very meaningful to gameplay. That seems illogical to me. And it makes for a somewhat odd feeling gameplay experience.

Edited June 1, 2008 by CrashGirl

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

it's easy enough to play no matter what "class" you chooce (which is important for me at least).

 

The reason for that of course is that all "classes" and any player character that you custom design are functionally identical and they become more so the longer you play. During development, we were told that this problem, which also plauged Morrowind, would be fixed so that different characters would actually be different. This of course didn't happen and the problem was actually made worse.

 

 

In Oblivion's design there is really no need for skills. It would have been more efficient for Todd Howard to eliminate the major/minor seperation of skills since the difference is cosmetic only and has zero effect on gameplay. Rather simply start all skills at the same level and let them all develop at the same pace. Or, even better and more in line with Oblivion's design, woudl have been to eliminate skills all together and simply approach it as an FPS: players can do whatever they want and skill numbers are not neccessary.

 

Oh please, that's a piss poor analysis of the games design.

 

 

You've convinced me!

 

Your analysis is off.

 

edit: read a few more of your posts and understood your opinion better.

 

Edit2: I am working on a response.

Edited June 1, 2008 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I don't even know where to start with this, you've made so many points crash girl that are at first glance logical and unflawed.

 

Like I say you've alot of points, but I'd like to start with my initial response which basically stated that your analysis was piss poor, which was only in response to that particular post, it doesn't hold true for everything that you've said since.

 

The reason for that of course is that all "classes" and any player character that you custom design are functionally identical and they become more so the longer you play. During development, we were told that this problem, which also plauged Morrowind, would be fixed so that different characters would actually be different. This of course didn't happen and the problem was actually made worse.

 

Style of play is important, a melee based character and a magic user do play very differently. Naturally if you aim to max everything out you end up with a generic character that can do everything, but lets face it, the only people who would set out to do that would be a hardcore clique. Style of play dictates function from my experience.

 

In Oblivion's design there is really no need for skills.

 

Really? I could have swore that a skill level had an effect on success rate.

 

It would have been more efficient for Todd Howard to eliminate the major/minor seperation of skills since the difference is cosmetic only and has zero effect on gameplay.

 

Sure they do they clearly define the players progression along those skill paths, the more a skill is used the faster it progresses etc... As major and minor skills effect the starting statistics of a skill this obviously then effects the success rate.

 

Rather simply start all skills at the same level and let them all develop at the same pace.

 

That's an absolutely different system that would result in a totally different game, heck dungeon siege basically use's a simplified version of that method and thus as you may have experienced the result is that focusing on a single skill yeilds the best results.

 

Or, even better and more in line with Oblivion's design, woudl have been to eliminate skills all together and simply approach it as an FPS: players can do whatever they want and skill numbers are not neccessary.

 

As with the previous statement this would result in a dramatically different experience. To be able to go from swing a sword to casting spells to whatever would be a different experience.

 

I don't believe that is in line with oblivions design at all as basically you're encouraged to work on a variety of skills.

 

 

 

NEXT POST

 

I should just point out that I am referring to the unmodded game as shipped by the designers. The fan community for both MW and Oblivion did amazing things to both games. I should also point that, for both games, the unofficial fan patches fix thousands of problems that Bethesda never even bothered to correct in their own "patching" process.

 

Firstly you should consider that the fact that tools have been provided to the fan community for modding as a good thing. It's fairly simple really, as it's frankly unlikely that any game will ever be released in perfect condition. By handing over abilities to fans to improve upon, change and modify the game benefits, which means the developer in essance benefits.

 

You mention thousands of problems, but it's hard to actually define a problem sometimes as occasionally this can be influenced heavily by opinion. That said, do you honestly believe that a company should spend X amount of cash fixing extremely minor bugs, sometimes the option itself isn't even available.... I would like an example of these problems.

 

Once you start talking about a modded version of Oblivion I have no real opinion on the game since every gamers personal selection of mods creates a different experience.

 

Isn't that the whole point of the ease-to-mod approch taken by Bethseda?

 

NEXT POST

 

Just remember: if you are playing the vanilla Oblivion version, the rule of thumb for character design is to place the skills that are most important to your class in your minor slots and put the least important skills that you don't plan to use in your major slots and then use those unimportant skills to control your leveling speed.

 

When the game was first release most people played it this way until mods started appearing that changed how the leveling mechanics worked.

 

An exploit that has different effects on the resulting gameplay anyway, seriously though... You say most people, I would say powergamers, and folks who enjoy exploits. Even knowing that exploit doesn't mean I would use it, I personally don't see the point.

 

All's said if you can't help being a bull to a red flag then by all means use a mod.

 

I believe the approch you outline would infact spoil the gameplay and increase the starting difficulty, and break the gameplay.

 

NEXT POST

 

I think a better way to put it is: the bad things about Oblivion may bother people less or more depending on how important that particular aspect of a crpg is to them.

 

This I can agree with 100%, no system is perfect though hence why they're often revised and imporved.

 

Despite the many bad things I say about Oblivion, I have played it as a lot simply because I love exploration-heavy, non-linear crpgs. So when I play, I simply ignore or look past the bad things about the game. But I stil notice the problems. Every time I pass an NPC farmer who switches from fur to leather to mithril to elven to glass the moment my PC levels, I feel like banging my head aginst the wall. IT IS SO DUMB TO DO THAT IN A GAME. Talk about devaluing player accomplishment.

 

I just can't stand it.

 

LOL, like Oblivion is the first game ever to have something akin to that. Heck, GTA4 scored 10 out of 10 in alot of reviews, that game makes me smash my face against the wall due to the WTF THAT'S STUPID! Moments. They'll always exist in many games, good, bad or ugly. It's sad when it breaks immersion, but it's not really something worth getting wound up about.

[Slowtrain]

Really? I could have swore that a skill level had an effect on success rate.

 

No it doesn't. In Oblivion skill affects magnitude and duration but not the percentage chance of something occuring. In Oblivion the chance of something occuring is based on player skill with the GUI not the in game skill numbers for the pc. Which makes it more like an FPS. And FPS games don't have skills because they aren't necessary. WHich is kinda my point about Oblivion.

 

edit: Clarification: success rate doesn't always depend on skill with the GUI. Some skills have an automatic 100% success rate. Alchemy for example. SKill affects potion duration and magnitude, but you always succeed when making a potion.

 

 

Style of play is important, a melee based character and a magic user do play very differently. Naturally if you aim to max everything out you end up with a generic character that can do everything, but lets face it, the only people who would set out to do that would be a hardcore clique. Style of play dictates function from my experience.

 

[

 

 

Your talking about choice by the human player to play a certain way. I don't disagree. I can do that in any game whether its a crpg or an FPS. I don't need skills to play that way. In Oblivion I can put blade in a minor slot and be just as good and effective with a blade as someone who puts it in a major slot. SO what is the point of the different tiers?

Edited June 1, 2008 by CrashGirl

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

NEXT POST

 

The DB story arc is absolutely the best part of the game. The whole DB aspect of the game has a feel and an atmosphere that the rest of the game is sorely lacking.

 

That is obviously subjective.

 

And I also agree that the armor/weapon damage system is absurd. It basically forces every character to become a master amororer or spend most of the game in broken armor. WHich is my single biggest complaint about the unmodded game: that every player character basically ends up as the SAME character. The armorer skill shoudl have been better integrated into the game so that it was a valuable skill for a melee-based character to have, but it was not required for every type of player character to use it.

 

I disagree harshly... Perhaps it would be fair to say, every character you play basically ends up as the SAME character?

 

NEXT POST

 

I, personally, do not think that the Bethesda designers put together a well-designed game. It has a ton of logic flaws as well as just bad design implementations.

 

Are they poorly design or poorly implemented, as at the end of the day implementation and initial design ain't the same thing. Some things just turn out bad when they're eventually realised,

 

The game is well enough designed that most people will experience the game and enjoy the game without suffering from the same irks of annoyance that you yourself do. I don't bother with oblivion mods, I don't feel the need to. If something was bothering a player, most likely there would be a mod to fix it, hence beth's approch is a good one.

 

I don't agree that your "logical" flaws are that prevelent you also have the advantage of playing the game for a very long period of time, somethings during development become unchangeable, sometimes things go unnoticed.

 

All games have logical flaws, some are just more frustrating than others.

 

Technically, you are correct. It is not actually required to use the armorer skill. You could choose to return to a smith after each fight and pay for a repair. However, due to the combat intensive nature of Oblivion, your armor will be pretty much totally broken within the span of a few combats, leaving you with a choice of either continuing with broken armor, breaking off combat after a few rooms and returning to town, or using your armorer skill. Unless you are really into LARPing, you are going to choose to use your armorer skill because its the least painful way to play the game. To me, that appears to be game design forcing ever character to use the armorer skill. But you are right, technically, you do not have to.

 

The game design never force's the player to do anything, this is again a good example of how your style of play effects your characters progression and why you have the feelings you do. I tend to for example, switch out my equipment, opposed to repairing, and make use of certain equipment at certain times.

 

I could say a lot on the whole lockpicking issue, none of it very complimentary to Oblivion. I'll just mention a couple points here briefly. First of all the lockpicking minigame is totally broken: I can pick any lock in the game with only a 5 skill and almost never break a pick. No matter how good I am at manipulating the lockpick GUI, that should be totally impossible. If it is not, what is the point of having a "skill" in the first place if it is totally unneccessary to actually suceeding? WHy can my character who is a Nord warrior with a brain the size of a pea and these enormous calloused hands that swing gigantic warhammers all day long pick every single lock in the game just as easily as my wood elf thief-specialized character? Shouldn't my thief character gain some special advantage from having a high agility and lockpicking as a major skill? ISn't that part and parcel of building charcters in a CRPG? Apparently not in Oblivion.

 

 

On a side note, I will grant that the lockpicking in MW was pretty much just as bad, although in a different way since it was totally skill based.

 

Not everyone can do that, but it's fair to say that naturally some people are indeed able to, frankly I always saw the lockpicking skill as a aid to the player. It's a middle of the road solution, it isn't perfect but then again, I don't believe like yourself that it should be impossible, just highly unlikely, and fact of the matter may be that for most people they don't have an experience akin to your own.

 

I'm not entire sure what this means.

 

That you don't have to even pick the locks at all you can just use a scroll, you don't need to heal, you can use potions etc... Basically options options options, which are used in different styles of play.

 

SO have I. And please not I am not criticizing Oblivion for having skill sets that aren't playable. I am criticizing Oblivion for having every character as a jack of all trades. Whether your lockpicking skill is major or minor, whether your starting agility is 30 or 65, whether you are thief specialized or mage specialized, none of it makes any practical difference to how your character deals with locks.

 

Well for you that indeed seem's to be the case.

 

I don't think it really has to do with attaining the same theoretical maximum in stats or skills. rather it is that gameplay is not significantly different for characters with different skill setups. Yes, you as the human player can CHOOSE to make it different by adopting "house rules" or LARPing, but the game itself doesn't do anything to make skill choices significant. WHich as I said several posts ago makes me wonder why there are major/minor skill tiers or even seperate skills at all.

 

So basically what your saying is that if a player adopts a different approch they're LARPing, please!

 

Your major complaint is that you don't feel the game forces you to do certain things, well that's my impression atleast, I find that ironic for a game which is obviously defined by the play with the design itself actually coming from the perspective of letting the player choose how to play the game and not forcing anything on the player.

 

Speechcraft: Has no real use in game, either in general play or in story play. The speechcraft mingame is more broken than the lockpicking mingame. WHy is this stupid skill in the game at all? They cut short blade and spears and left this one? Ridiculous.

 

I suppose it's an attempt to simulate small talk and social interaction, speechcraft helps with the minigame, that's the only point of it, and how much a NPC likes you does effect what they tell you.

 

The cutting of short blade and spears which does suck, but clearly the had the idea of the minigame thought it was cool and used the skill to complement the minigame, high speechcraft does make the minigame easier, for alot of people the game will seem pointless and annoying but that is a matter of opinion.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Light armor/Heavy armor: They are for all intents the exact same skill and become more identical as they develop. They both end up providing roughly the same level of protection at roughly the same encumberance. WHy not just save time and simply have one armor skill? If you are goign to have 2 armor skills they shoudl be different. For example: as light armor skill increases the armor becomes less encumbering but never becomes more protecting; as heavy armor skill increases it becomes more protecing but never less encumbering If dones that way the choice would be more significant and actually have a major impact on your player characters play style.

 

You rant about the cutting of weapon skills and then start saying armour should just be one skill, my gods you're certainly female.

 

I think it actually comes down to choice, at the end of the day you don't start where you end up you firstly have to get their, heavy armour certainly offers more protection in my experience. It becomes a matter of choice instead of simply having the player able to wear and use every armour, you either use light or heavy, I really don't see the problem, it's a fair result too.

 

I am not saying that Oblivion should or should not be a ceratin way, btw. Mostly what I am saying is that much of Oblivion's design is not terribly logical. IE: If you want to spend the time to put skill choices into a game, you should make them meaningful; if you don't want to make them meaningful, just don't put them in. Rather in the case of Oblivion, it appears that the developers went to all the trouble to put skills in, but then went to all this trouble to make them not very meaningful to gameplay. That seems illogical to me. And it makes for a somewhat odd feeling gameplay experience.

 

I don't find you to be terribley logical in your deductions. What is meaningful to gameplay in your experience may indeed be meaningless to others, something are just there as a nice extra, some things aren't...

 

I would say that the dev's attempted to mostly apply a fairness to skills and thus not make any particular skill stand out as a must have option, there are a few that would be must not have for particular playing styles.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

No it doesn't. In Oblivion skill affects magnitude and duration but not the percentage chance of something occuring. In Oblivion the chance of something occuring is based on player skill with the GUI not the in game skill numbers for the pc. Which makes it more like an FPS. And FPS games don't have skills because they aren't necessary. WHich is kinda my point about Oblivion.

 

edit: Clarification: success rate doesn't always depend on skill with the GUI. Some skills have an automatic 100% success rate. Alchemy for example. SKill affects potion duration and magnitude, but you always succeed when making a potion.

 

I did screw up though... crossed wires and got it wrong .

 

Well, frankly speak that's not a dramatic divergance really, magnitude and duration... success, basically higher the skill better the result so I don't see a problem with that... it's nothing like an FPS.

 

FPS's tend to focus on area hit and weapon.

 

Oblivion would be more has it hit, and what should the damage be.

 

This makes it quite different as the effectiveness of a weapon, spell etc... Is based in turn on the skill with an ability, where instead in an FPS the result would ALWAYS be the same.

 

Your talking about choice by the human player to play a certain way. I don't disagree. I can do that in any game whether its a crpg or an FPS. I don't need skills to play that way. In Oblivion I can put blade in a minor slot and be just as good and effective with a blade as someone who puts it in a major slot. SO what is the point of the different tiers?

 

You can eventually be as effective, you wouldn't start out as effecting, the idea is simple you have your major skills which you should use loads and hence effects your leveling etc... And minor skills which should progress behind them.

 

The dev's set out to make a game where the player gets to choose what's what, they've always appeared to have made that statement about eldar scroll games since I can remember, it seems like you yourself don't like that all that much. The TES games are ABOUT HUMAN CHOICE

 

You want tight restraints on rules, or a pure skill system where everything is equal.... Kinda the old D20 or Fallout SPECIAL system.

 

The approch with beth takes does leave it open to exploits, but heck, so what does it spoil the game that much for you? If so wow, they made the thing easy to mod, most problems that people find are probably addressed in a mod, so that could be seen as adding house rules forcefully.

 

Your problem, from what I appear to be able to see from what you've written is that they've not made the game structured enough for you, and there are exploits, design desicions etc... That really bother you, now here's an interesting thing for you to think about.

 

The game can be modded, it has been played by alot of people who will have all perhaps been frustrated by some feature, ain't a single game that can be considered to satisfy everyone, and thus by allowing the game to be easily modified the game itself can be altered so as to more or less fit the persons desired taste. Now here's something, if the game was how you say it should be by your logic, you'd quickly realise that you'd have people modify it and say you're illogical in your idea's etc...

 

Oblivion setup at stock settings is perfectly adequette, and if the player has any ounce of disipline it can be a damn fine game, heck even exploiting the crap out of the game people will have still had fun. Out of the box the game was certainly good on release, I was pleased, extended over a long playing period certain thing may seem pointless, but most gamers won't play anywhere near that long, heck a bunch will never even finish the game, others will do the main story and then never play it again. Those who play it into the ground will come across things that a majority of players won't come across. This isn't the dev's fault, heck MMO's are pretty much constantly tweaked for balance, and despite all the play testing that a company can afford it's never the same as thousands perhaps millions of people playing something, all with individual likes and dislikes.

[RangerSG]

To be fair regarding Elder Scrolls and the jack-of-all-trades PC, this is part and parcel in large part of the 'open-ended' RPG in general. The best way to approach it is a well-rounded PC to get the most out of your experience. The same thing was true in Fallout 2. You were best served being a team-player female sniper, as that gave you maximum quests and maximum experience in gameplay. In Oblivion you're best off with a well-rounded PC to get into the most factions and maximize your experience as well. You can choose to do less in any open-ended RPG, but it's never going to be the 'best' way to progress.

 

I don't know that it's necessarily bad that a jack-of-all-trades works best then. I think the lockpicking mini-game and speechcraft mini-games were both interesting ideas that fell flat in execution. But the landscape rendering and exploration aspects of the game (and the DB quest) keep me from disliking the game by any stretch.

[Pidesco]

The Speechcraft minigame was an atrocious idea, that automatically made dialogues and characters feel artificial and mechanic. And they were already too mechanic and artificial even without the minigame.

[RangerSG]

The Speechcraft minigame was an atrocious idea, that automatically made dialogues and characters feel artificial and mechanic. And they were already too mechanic and artificial even without the minigame.

 

Actually, you're talking about an implementation there as well. I think it 'could' have worked well, if it was a skill based system like in Morrowind. And not a "trick the NPC" system where you 'had' to use all the options in just the right order. That was silly. I don't tease, flatter, and intimidate someone all in the same discussion 'every' time we chat IRL, why do I have to in the game. Now using your skill to get the best idea of how to approach a person, and then attempt it? That could've worked.

[Tigranes]

When I first heard of the concept what I envisioned was a normal dialogue tree system without a separate minigame component, where your 'normal' dialogue options, which any idiot can categorise as flattery or whatnot on their own, would elicit particular types of responses aided by facial expressions, and you would then know whether you were in safe or troubled waters. In fact, sort of like the relationship between Fallout's dialogue tree and the talking heads' expressions, but more interconnected.

 

....yeah, I was optimistic.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

When I first heard of the concept what I envisioned was a normal dialogue tree system without a separate minigame component, where your 'normal' dialogue options, which any idiot can categorise as flattery or whatnot on their own, would elicit particular types of responses aided by facial expressions, and you would then know whether you were in safe or troubled waters. In fact, sort of like the relationship between Fallout's dialogue tree and the talking heads' expressions, but more interconnected.

 

....yeah, I was optimistic.

 

Indeed, and probably how it should have been implemented.