Character Creation and Customization

[Sand]

My favourite game series of all time (Gothic..) had a pre-determined character. In all three games.

 

Colour me couldn't-care-less. A good game doesn't depend on which character you get/have to play, as long as you're given the tools and abilities to shape this character after your own will during the game.

 

I hated the Gothic series. Okay, I hated Gothic 1 and 2. I never played Gothic 3. I just couldn't get into the game. I couldn't get in character. Unless the game has a phenomenal storyline and great gameplay I just stop playing the game because I lose interest. I need to feel I have ownership of the character. You cannot give that feeling of ownership without proper character creation.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Sand

[Morgoth]

Colour me couldn't-care-less. A good game doesn't depend on which character you get/have to play, as long as you're given the tools and abilities to shape this character after your own will during the game.

+1

[DuncanOToole]

I love the idea of being visually responsible for my RPG hero.

But maybe that's just me.

[Nick_i_am]

I guess being visually responsible for an RPG hero makes up for not being visually responsible for oneself.

[~Di]

My first impression is that it sounds a bit "No One Lives Forever" with a male PC plus "Deus Ex" without the implants. Now I liked both games, but neither was an RPG. They were FPS through and through despite Deus Ex's claim to have "role playing elements".

 

I have a wait and see attitude. I've played and enjoyed games with pres-set male PC's... but I've rarely played them more than once, and have avoided them more often than I've purchased them. I'll just watch and wait to see what this game has that makes it "buy worthy"... particularly if it ends up being more of an FPS than an RPG (which just doesn't really fit the mode of a pre-set PC, in my humble opinion.)

[DuncanOToole]

I guess being visually responsible for an RPG hero makes up for not being visually responsible for oneself.

ooooh sick buuuuurn

 

oh wait...

[Humodour]

My first impression is that it sounds a bit "No One Lives Forever" with a male PC plus "Deus Ex" without the implants. Now I liked both games, but neither was an RPG. They were FPS through and through despite Deus Ex's claim to have "role playing elements".

 

Oh? Why weren't they RPGs? In the case of DX alone:

 

- Non-linear

- Skill system + AUG system for very large number of character designs

- Character choices

- Game world choices

- Dialogue system

- Dialogue choices

- Multiple approaches to pretty much every problem

- An intricate storyline

- Inventory

- Ability to change the outcome of the game and many sidequests depending on your actions

- Exploration

- Moral choices

 

I'm a bit confused, really. If Deus Ex wasn't an RPG, what is?

[Nick_i_am]

Deus Ex was an RPG where it counted and a shooter where it counted, people who didn't enjoy both couldn't enjoy the game.

 

ooooh sick buuuuurn

 

oh wait...

 

Ooops, this was more a comment on roleplayers in general than a personal insult.

[~Di]

My first impression is that it sounds a bit "No One Lives Forever" with a male PC plus "Deus Ex" without the implants. Now I liked both games, but neither was an RPG. They were FPS through and through despite Deus Ex's claim to have "role playing elements".

 

Oh? Why weren't they RPGs? In the case of DX alone:

 

- Non-linear

 

Neither were non-linear. They were both story-driven, and you sure as heck couldn't decide to go to, say, Hong-Kong until the story told you to. That matters not in RPG matters for me, however, since lots of great RPG's, including NWN2, weren't terribly non-linear.

 

- Skill system + AUG system for very large number of character designs

 

That comes under the definition of "with some role-playing elements". In NOLF, this didn't exist at all. System Shock had these features, as did BioShock, but few would argue that they weren't FPS games "with some role-playing elements."

 

- Character choices

Er, No. The PC was a preset character. In Deus Ex, however, you had three head choices for J.C. Denton.

 

- Game world choices

Eh? Unless you're talking about the choice of endings in Deus Ex. Otherwise, it was simply who you killed, if you killed, and how you killed.

 

- Dialogue system

- Dialogue choices

- Multiple approaches to pretty much every problem

 

The same can be said of most recent FPS. Heck, there were dialog choices in Jagged Alliance 2, a completely non-linear world, leveling systems, skills, etc.... and I doubt anyone would call this tactical squad action game an RPG.

 

- An intricate storyline

- Inventory

 

Lots of FPS can say the same.

 

- Ability to change the outcome of the game and many sidequests depending on your actions

- Exploration

- Moral choices

 

Again, many FPS (not to mention RTS) can say the same.

 

I'm a bit confused, really. If Deus Ex wasn't an RPG, what is?

 

It was a FPS (all in first person to boot!) with some role-playing elements. NOLF was strictly a FPS... which also had dialogue trees, side quests, moral choices, just like most games nowadays.

 

Now I wasn't criticizing Alpha Protocol, nor was I criticizing Deus Ex or NOLF (I loved both). I'm just saying that what very little I have read about the game... and face it, we know next to nothing at this point... sounds a bit to me like a cross between the two, and more of a FPS than what I consider a true role-playing game, particularly since it sounds as if the game will have a preset PC.

Edited March 17, 2008 by ~Di

[Nick_i_am]

And people who don't like RPGs call it an RPG, Deus Ex is like Mougli, who isn't accepted by the wolves OR the humans.

 

You can no more call Deus Ex a shooter than you can call Theif a shooter, simply because you're in first person and you shoot. If the game was isometric suddenly it would be a different story, yet nothing would really have changed.

Edited March 17, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[DuncanOToole]

Ooops, this was more a comment on roleplayers in general than a personal insult.

 

No worries mate-

[~Di]

My favourite game series of all time (Gothic..) had a pre-determined character. In all three games.

 

Colour me couldn't-care-less. A good game doesn't depend on which character you get/have to play, as long as you're given the tools and abilities to shape this character after your own will during the game.

 

I hated the Gothic series. Okay, I hated Gothic 1 and 2. I never played Gothic 3. I just couldn't get into the game. I couldn't get in character. Unless the game has a phenomenal storyline and great gameplay I just stop playing the game because I lose interest. I need to feel I have ownership of the character. You cannot give that feeling of ownership without proper character creation.

 

I didn't hate Gothic 1 and 2. I quite liked them, actually. That said, I never felt as if I WAS the main character; never really identified with him. Rather, I felt as if I was sitting on his shoulders giving orders like a little pupeteer. The games I have loved the most, that I have played over and over are the games that gave me a PC that I could identify with, felt fully a part of. That has never happened when I've been handed a preset PC, even in the games I've enjoyed, like PS:T, Gothic, and Deus Ex. I always felt as if I was watching the action, controlling the action, but never as if I was truly a part of it.

[Humodour]

Neither were non-linear. They were both story-driven, and you sure as heck couldn't decide to go to, say, Hong-Kong until the story told you to. That matters not in RPG matters for me, however, since lots of great RPG's, including NWN2, weren't terribly non-linear.

 

I can't enter every house and do things in any order I like. That means it is completely linear!

 

Linearity is a gradient. Compared to both most FPSs and most RPGs, Deus Ex was non-linear where it counted; replayability.

 

- Skill system + AUG system for very large number of character designs

 

That comes under the definition of "with some role-playing elements". In NOLF, this didn't exist at all. System Shock had these features, as did BioShock, but few would argue that they weren't FPS games "with some role-playing elements."

 

No, it really doesn't. An RPG is not defined by how many statistics and dice rolls it has. Or would you contend it is?

 

Anyway, how is that "some"? You've got on the skills side:

Doctor

Environmental

Big guns

Small guns

Melee

Demolitions

+ others

 

That compares pretty favourably with, say, Fallout, no?

 

Stealth/Diplomacy

Guns blazing

 

And in these two approaches there is the different combat approaches: silent melee, silent ranged, big guns nuking things to hell, rifles for rapid fire, etc. In a normal FPS these are just different ways to kill things. In DX it becomes a merge of tactics and personal play style (certainly a form of role playing even in the strictest sense); elusive spy or gungho commando on a basic level. And lets be fair, how well does your definition of RPG work with different game play styles? It's rare to find an RPG that allows you to sneak past or talk your way out of almost every situation. Fallout is the only RPG that comes to mind, and even it fails miserably at stealth.

 

Then you have augs which are gravy really, but allow for even more specilisation of your play style; arguably more than a class-based system. Certainly, when it comes to character design, Deus Ex is as much an RPG as any game.

 

- Character choices

Er, No. The PC was a preset character. In Deus Ex, however, you had three head choices for J.C. Denton.

 

The PC is a preset character in a lot of RPGs. I mean, look at Torment.

 

And hey, unlike Torment you get to choose your skin/hair colour, your name, and your starting skills. As good as any RPG, no?

 

Indeed, "preset character" is a very weak reason to claim DX isn't an RPG. Are you claiming Deus Ex isn't an RPG because you can't play as a girl?

 

Anyway, I meant character choices as the game progresses; the type of character choices that actually matter most in an RPG.

 

- Game world choices

Eh? Unless you're talking about the choice of endings in Deus Ex. Otherwise, it was simply who you killed, if you killed, and how you killed.

 

Remember harder. You get choices all over the place; re-uniting Sandra Renton and her Father or letting her jump town, helping out the homeless kids, when and where you turn on UNATCO, whether or not you kill people or knock them out, what you say to your co-workers at UNATCO (E.g. Sharon), whether your co-workers at UNATCO like you (e.g. the UNATCO vs NSF fight near the ton and whether you help or not, as well as Gunther Herman and Navarre), what you say Joe Greene, whether or not you rescue Tiffany, convincing the French kids parents to talk him out of working for MJ12, I could go on.

 

Sure, you could distill it down to being all about killing, but then you're going to have a freaking hard time defending the RPG status of your favourite RPGs if you do that; Fallout, KOTOR, BG. The game is a lot more complex than killing. Killing is the catalyst for most quests and interactions simply because it's the main way you have the power to change events; Deus Ex is no different to any other RPG in this regard. "Oh, that wasn't role-playing because if diplomacy failed you could have just killed him". Yeah, ok.

 

Contd next post due to quote limit.

[Humodour]

- Dialogue system

- Dialogue choices

- Multiple approaches to pretty much every problem

 

The same can be said of most recent FPS. Heck, there were dialog choices in Jagged Alliance 2, a completely non-linear world, leveling systems, skills, etc.... and I doubt anyone would call this tactical squad action game an RPG.

 

So now it's down to being about what other games don't have?

 

I haven't played JA2, but if it was fairly non-linear, had dialogue choices, character development, a fairly intricate plot, and your actions effected the world around you, then yeah I'd call it an RPG, wouldn't you? Hell we call IWD an RPG and it fails some of these criteria. True of many RPGs, really.

 

I mean, again, you're dodging the issue of what constitutes an RPG. You're trying to discount features of Deus Ex rather than explain why it's not an RPG.

 

I'm willing to accept that we must draw a line somewhere. Most people draw that line at linearity, in all its forms. Even today's FPSs (like Unreal 2, JK2 and HL2) while they have dialogue and sometimes even dialogue choices, are characterised by a general lack of consistent dialogue, consistent choices and consistent non-linearity (e.g. multiple pathways to take, whether it be stealth/combat, or simply just two different ways to get to a location or solve a problem). Thus FPS is a far more apt title for such games.

 

But to argue that Deus Ex isn't an RPG simply because it is in first person perspective and you can shoot people (i.e. FPS)... it's really not an appealing argument.

 

- An intricate storyline

- Inventory

 

Lots of FPS can say the same.

 

Can or do? Care to give examples? Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are the only ones that come to mind where the inventory system as at the intricacy level of your "typical" RPG.

 

Inventory provides yet one more avenue for choice and hence non-linearity. And I think that's what the essence of 'RPG' means; maximising player choice while telling a compelling and immersive tale. Again, score one for Deus Ex.

 

- Ability to change the outcome of the game and many sidequests depending on your actions

- Exploration

- Moral choices

 

Again, many FPS (not to mention RTS) can say the same.

 

Again, then that's one less criterion you have with which to discount Deus Ex as not being an RPG, no?

 

And to further nail my point: how many such FPS/RTSs have the quality and quantity of moral choices and meaningful exploratory opportunities as Deus Ex?

 

I'm a bit confused, really. If Deus Ex wasn't an RPG, what is?

 

It was a FPS (all in first person to boot!) with some role-playing elements. NOLF was strictly a FPS... which also had dialogue trees, side quests, moral choices, just like most games nowadays.

 

Now I wasn't criticizing Alpha Protocol, nor was I criticizing Deus Ex or NOLF (I loved both). I'm just saying that what very little I have read about the game... and face it, we know next to nothing at this point... sounds a bit to me like a cross between the two, and more of a FPS than what I consider a true role-playing game, particularly since it sounds as if the game will have a preset PC.

 

Fair enough. I'm sure you did like the games. But that doesn't really justify or validate your argument as to why it's not an RPG, does it? Err what was your argument btw? Why isn't Deus Ex an RPG?

 

I fail to see how a preset PC is a problem. Did you play Planescape: Torment? Further I think Deus Ex elucidates how a preset PC can work and how an RPG can work as an FPS, but for some reason you've yet to explain, you don't consider it so.

[Tale]

Generally an RPG is considered a game with a combat simulation system that is similar to those used by PnP RPGs from which the CRPG spawned. Simply having a growth mechanic is often considered insufficient.

 

But heck, even Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines only had probably one more RPG element than Deus Ex.

 

It's a heavily debatable topic. There's very little formalization in video game genre discrimination. Even some of the older games of the CRPG heritage billed themselves as adventure games.

 

 

I personally prefer relatively strict assignments based on the most prominent aspects of the game and according to key examples. I think Deus Ex has far more in common with Half-Life than Baldur's Gate and would sooner recommend it to a Half-Life fan than a BG fan. Then throw in whatever qualifiers you think are relevant (action, adventure, with RPG elements, etc.).

Edited March 17, 2008 by Tale

[Meshugger]

To quote the girlfriend in the house: "I can't play as a female character? What the frell is that poo about?"

 

She still refuses to play Torment for that mere reason, but it's her loss anyway.

Edited March 17, 2008 by Meshugger

[sharkz]

I would rather have a story and dialogue system that is twice as deep and immersive then have an average dialogue system just so they can have both male and females.

 

As far as I can see you can do a lot more with the game if you keep it just one gender.

 

 

I HATE the way woman are so backwards about how they HAVE to play as a female, Its a non issue.

This game is set in the real world were woman are only good at looking pretty and making din dins. Jus' sayin.

Edited March 17, 2008 by sharkz

[Tale]

To quote the girlfriend in the house: "I can't play as a female character? What the frell is that poo about?"

 

She still refuses to play Torment for that mere reason, but it's her loss anyway.

Your girlfriend's a Farscape fan? Keeper.

[Gorth]

About the gender thing, I can't help but feel that those games that offers female protagonists have them there more to please male than female players. Maybe it is just my imagination, maybe there just is too few females working in the gaming industry?

 

I wonder what a game would look like if the protagonist was actually designed by females to be played by females?

 

...and the first one to say 'The Sims' gets a kick over the shin

[Tigranes]

It would be nice if they didnt' all have boobs the size of footballs.

 

No, really. How can you find it attractive if it's big enough to give birth?

[Gorth]

It would be nice if they didnt' all have boobs the size of footballs.

 

No, really. How can you find it attractive if it's big enough to give birth?

Sort of what I was thinking (being in the middle of a game of VMBL)

[Meshugger]

To quote the girlfriend in the house: "I can't play as a female character? What the frell is that poo about?"

 

She still refuses to play Torment for that mere reason, but it's her loss anyway.

Your girlfriend's a Farscape fan? Keeper.

 

Indeed, but i think it has something to do with the lead character

[mkreku]

I'm a bit confused, really. If Deus Ex wasn't an RPG, what is?

Usually it's always the people who absolutely SUCK at FPS's that calls Deus Ex anything but a RPG. It's perfectly possible to disregard the shooting bits in Deus Ex (for the majority of the game) and concentrate on the story and character development. It is not possible to play the game as a pure shooter and disregard everything else. Make up your own mind.

[Nick_i_am]

To quote the girlfriend in the house: "I can't play as a female character? What the frell is that poo about?"

 

She still refuses to play Torment for that mere reason, but it's her loss anyway.

 

You're dating Hades?

[Sand]

If a game plays like a shooter, feels like a shooter, looks like a shooter, then its a shooter. Deus Ex is a shooter. Best damn shooter I have ever played, but still a shooter. Bloodlines was a nice hybrid.

 

I would rather have a story and dialogue system that is twice as deep and immersive then have an average dialogue system just so they can have both male and females.

 

I rather have a story and dialogue system that is very deep and immersive for both genders than have limited character creation options. The idea that the story and immersion will suffer because both genders are catered to is an antiquated notion that has been squashed by modern CRPGs. Want proof? Play Mass Effect.