So this game will be an rpg, that much we know.

 

Rpg's typically have 3-4 things, gear, levels, and either character classes or skill trees (or both).

 

Now personally, I've always enjoyed rpg's that allow you some measure of freedom when designing your character. For example, the NWN series of games is awesome when it comes to character creation: thanks to multiclassing you can cobble together abilities from one class with abilities to essentially "build your own class". Guild Wars is another great game where you can really put on your character building tinfoil hat and make individual and team builds that are very specific.

 

On the other hand there are rpg's that funnel you into a very limited series of class choices. If you want to play a fighter, your fighter will basically be the same as every other fighter in the universe. If you want to play a healer, your healer will be the same as every other healer in the universe. Blizzard Entertainment did a respectable job in the diablo games and in WoW with skill trees that allow people to differentiate the given archetypes from one another (ie one mage might be specialized in fire magic, the other one in ice, etc). Still, one ice mage is the same as another ice mage, so all the skill trees do for WoW and Diablo is give the illusion of variety when in reality they could have just made each and every skill tree an individual class.

 

At the end of the day, I really, really hope that this here aliens rpg thingy bop has multiclassing or some kind of classless "make your own" type of deal by allowing players to choose skills as they please.

 

What say the rest of you?

I'd say a classless system would be best.

I'd say a classless system would be best.

 

Something I liked about Fallout 1&2, I could build my own "classes" by chosing which skills to specialise in. Offer the player a decent vignette of skills and let him build his character as he sees fit. Even if he needs to wear bullet proof footwear.

I strongly believe it will be a classless system, or a hybrid system like that used in Bloodlines (clans).

Yes, I've always liked classless systems better. Especially in CRPGs.

I've never really minded class systems; I'm the kind of guy that ends up building most characters in a very similar manner anyway, so if I had a squad of classless guys I'd probably end up with some sort of clone army. Classes in party-based RPGs do mean that one person cant do everything and you really are pushed into relying on different members for different jobs, which I appreciate; and since Aliens, by way of latest likely pseudo-information, is tactically-baed, I wouldn't mind classes at all.

 

That said, classless is nice too. I'm not sure what kind of skills an Aliens game would have of course, that might change things. I mean, we dont' have magic, right? So what do we end up with? Gun proficiency/skills? How much is speech skills going to matter (are we even going to have traditional large cities in an Aliens game)? Maybe a greater focus on stealth, traps and athleticism skills?

You could have a skillset similar to Deus Ex's, but you'd have to pad it a bit to make sure most character's aren't functionally identical.

That said, classless is nice too. I'm not sure what kind of skills an Aliens game would have of course, that might change things. I mean, we dont' have magic, right? So what do we end up with? Gun proficiency/skills? How much is speech skills going to matter (are we even going to have traditional large cities in an Aliens game)? Maybe a greater focus on stealth, traps and athleticism skills?

 

Have a look at SPECIAL.

Classless is fine, so long as there are enough skills to create unique builds. Classless + limited skills (or classless + the ability to max out any and every skill you please) only results in the same cookie cutter characters a rigid class based system.

There are really only three "classes" in the Alien franchise:

 

(1) Inadequate Space Marine.

(2) Sigourney Weaver.

(3) Casualties.

That said, classless is nice too. I'm not sure what kind of skills an Aliens game would have of course, that might change things. I mean, we dont' have magic, right? So what do we end up with? Gun proficiency/skills? How much is speech skills going to matter (are we even going to have traditional large cities in an Aliens game)? Maybe a greater focus on stealth, traps and athleticism skills?

 

Have a look at SPECIAL.

 

special may not be best example, seeing as how woefully unbalanced the special skills were.

 

btw, once we gets into a skills debate we sadly is gonna have to return to josh's wacky limited ammo solution for balancing weapons. if various weapon skills is balanced through limited ammo solution, then Gromnir has a problem... 'cause it not result in any genuine gameplay balance. to be balancing the gauss weapons by giving 'em limited ammo? that not balance 'em, not one bit. all it does is result in palyers using gauss weapons only during boss/tough battles.

 

maybe aliens does different and there ain't no boss battles... maybe all battles is relative equal. if this is case then the limited ammo solution makes sense, but otherwise it is a profoundly myopic solution that only looks good on paper, and completely ignores reality that a large % o' crpg battles typically is fodder encounters.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 1, 200818 yr by Gromnir

There are really only three "classes" in the Alien franchise:

 

(1) Inadequate Space Marine.

(2) Sigourney Weaver.

(3) Casualties.

I think I love you.

btw, once we gets into a skills debate we sadly is gonna have to return to josh's wacky limited ammo solution for balancing weapons. if various weapon skills is balanced through limited ammo solution, then Gromnir has a problem... 'cause it not result in any genuine gameplay balance. to be balancing the gauss weapons by giving 'em limited ammo? that not balance 'em, not one bit. all it does is result in palyers using gauss weapons only during boss/tough battles.

Players get consumable resources specifically so they can engage in gameplay that demands they manage those resources. If the gameplay and level design don't support it, no duh, it's terrible. I don't think there's anything wrong with a player conserving ammo/potions/spells/whatever of a specific type to use against a boss. Games that are relatively challenging even in the "fodder" stages (Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil 4) offer a lot of temptation to use those resources. And if the character has a limited inventory, carrying around a gauss rifle with a few rounds specifically to use against a boss is a big sacrifice. You can haul a bazooka and a few rounds around in RE4, but you're not carrying much else.

 

Fallout 1, 2, and the IE games let you carry around a truckload of items so in those games it wasn't a big deal in those games to limit special ammo or other consumables. Other games have shown that you can force the player to make meaningful and difficult choices with inventory/loadout.

Limited ammo is a very effective gameplay element for competative online or lan shooters, those games are all about controlling resources and denying them to the opposition. It worked very well in the resident evil series as well. Stabbing a zombie to death is uselessly inefficient, but very satisfying.

Limited ammo is a very effective gameplay element for competative online or lan shooters, those games are all about controlling resources and denying them to the opposition.

 

 

...

 

every battle is a boss battle in online and lan shooters... is the KEY difference. you die and get ejected from game... see ya'.

 

in crpgs, how many battles is genuine tough in a 40 hour game? hell, you get reload probably, so how many battles you gotta reload more than once? a bare handful? resource management is NOT same in single player crpg... not by a long shot.

 

"I don't think there's anything wrong with a player conserving ammo/potions/spells/whatever of a specific type to use against a boss."

 

neither does Gromnir. players will and should do. is a useful gameplay aspect... but it don't Balance weapons. a large % o' crpg battles is gonna be fodder battles in which no player is gonna need to use special ammos or weapons 'less they is really incompetent or they is retarded. heck, that aspect is already in game 'cause if such weaposn and skills were necessary, then there would be no point in making optional and chooseable in first place.

 

issue is when josh thinks that limiting ammo actually serves to balance different weapons or weapon skills... 'cause it don't. gauss weapons is balanced 'cause there ain't enough ammo to waste on rats? HA! only need the best ammo or super potions (or whatever) for a bare handful o' encounters. so forcing players to do what they is gonna do anyways (conserve ammo for super weapons to be used in tough battles) is hardly an effective balancing technique. punish the epicly stoopid? sure, limited ammo for super weapons does that, but otherwise...

 

limited ammo not balance weapons unless you does like lan and online and make all battles possibly 1 and done.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 1, 200818 yr by Gromnir

That said, classless is nice too. I'm not sure what kind of skills an Aliens game would have of course, that might change things. I mean, we dont' have magic, right? So what do we end up with? Gun proficiency/skills? How much is speech skills going to matter (are we even going to have traditional large cities in an Aliens game)? Maybe a greater focus on stealth, traps and athleticism skills?

 

Have a look at SPECIAL.

 

special may not be best example, seeing as how woefully unbalanced the special skills were.

 

Highly irrelevant. It is not the balancing which is in focus, as that is an issue which is left up to each individual game to get right.

 

What is important is the structure of SPECIAL: how it managed to provide the illusion of classes, etc.

 

btw, once we gets into a skills debate we sadly is gonna have to return to josh's wacky limited ammo solution for balancing weapons. if various weapon skills is balanced through limited ammo solution, then Gromnir has a problem... 'cause it not result in any genuine gameplay balance. to be balancing the gauss weapons by giving 'em limited ammo? that not balance 'em, not one bit. all it does is result in palyers using gauss weapons only during boss/tough battles.

 

I disagree. Again, this is up to each game to get right, but limited ammo is important for suspense and strategy, if done correctly. Fallout got it right in some areas, as did System Shock 2 and Vampire: Bloodlines.

 

maybe aliens does different and there ain't no boss battles... maybe all battles is relative equal. if this is case then the limited ammo solution makes sense, but otherwise it is a profoundly myopic solution that only looks good on paper, and completely ignores reality that a large % o' crpg battles typically is fodder encounters.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You've lost me gromnir. Are you trying to say that limiting ammo for the gauss rifle shouldn't be the ONLY method of balancing it? I think it works OK. It depends on the combat system. Fallout didn't provide a suitable way to use multiple weapons. Ideally if you want to have one weapon that's very powerful but has little ammo, you need a quick and effective way of switching between a couple of weapons, such as the number keys in FPS's.

 

A lot of FPS's get the limited ammo thing right, so I don't see why it's such a stretch for a CRPG to do the same.

 

HA! Good Fun!

issue is when josh thinks that limiting ammo actually serves to balance different weapons or weapon skills... 'cause it don't.

We already gave you examples of games where resource conservation (including ammo) actually was meaningful. Specifically, RE4 did a very good job of it. Have you played any of them?

 

Another example I haven't listed is Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. The main character can carry up to four grenades, a "big gun" (shotgun or assault rifle) and a sidearm (pistol or micro-submachinegun). Additionally, he can use hand to hand. Hand to hand is used pretty regularly because it's not uncommon to run out of ammo in firefights. And picking up weapons is an important decision because it becomes obvious after a while how common certain types of ammo are. The shotgun is very effective, but ammo is not that common. AK47s are really common, but not all that terrific. Similarly, the big revolver is a one-shot kill weapon, but the ammo is found virtually nowhere. You don't have the option of carrying more than one sidearm, so the choice between the standard pistol, micro-uzi, and big revolver isn't trivial.

Another example would be S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

 

Not necessarily the worlds best balanced game, but even the dead simple inventory management system works because you can't carry more than a real person in real life could carry. You need to make hard choices which gun(s) and which ammo to keep and shed a few tears every now and then (and trying to remember in vain where) and store good spare guns in safe locations. The better and bigger the gun you decided to keep, the less other stuff (e.g. anti anti-rad meds) you could take with you.

 

It took a while to get used to, but after a while it was more a challenge than a source of despair.

I'll just add that, while I don't know how most feel, I personally enjoy having to shed some tears over inventory management and weapon selection.

 

A game that probably did it extremely was is Deus Ex 1. I'd keep the GEP gun (rocket launcher) even though it was so massive - because it was a "lockpick", a snipe and a heavy armour killer all in one. However this meant I probably didn't need a sniper rifle or grenades, but just in case I'd put a scope on my silenced stealth pistol or normal pistol (which was again a hard choice, since headshots are easier with a normal pistol but the normal pistol fires slower and can't be silenced). Then I'd find the plasma rifle which I totally fell in love with, but since it was the size of the GEP gun, I'd probably have to get rid of any other rifles, SMGs or shutguns... which was delicate, since the plasma rifle fired semi-slow-moving rounds, was loud, and the ammo was very rare (and the gun had a wicked fire rate, meaning you depleted it quickly). In fact I think I replaced the flamethrower with the plasma rifle. Man, the flamethrower was fun until they started sending the cyborg bitches at me with their radiation shields.

 

Of course in the end I decided the plasma rifle was worth it and just switched to using my sword (and then nano-sword) combined with stealth for most easy take-downs (except those cyborg MIBs which explode when they die - arg for close range).

I personally enjoy having to shed some tears over inventory management and weapon selection.

As do I. I prefer RE4 style inventory.

 

 

I was also nice of it to set quest items and loots apart from weapons/ammo/healing items.

"A lot of FPS's get the limited ammo thing right, so I don't see why it's such a stretch for a CRPG to do the same.

 

"HA! Good Fun!"

 

you summed up josh's point... which is why it, and yours, sucks. this is a crpg, and unless aliens is crpg in name only, people is gonna have to choose a particular weapon or weapon set to specialize in. maybe give you and josh a few minutes to stew over, 'cause we can tell you both ain't getting the ramifications. but keep in mind that regardless o' what weapon or class a weapons a person chooses to focus 'pon, obsidian will make game beatable... and not just beatable. these games is designed so as not to overly frustrate. mull it over and maybe you see problems.

 

is not a fps. is different. don't assume that they is same, 'cause they ain't... 'less aliens ain't any crpg that would be recognizable as such to anybody who has played obsidian crpgs of past.

 

oh, and to ignore special's balance issues is to repeat mistakes it made... which were many. is not up to players to know (or guess) ahead of time which skills and weapons is superior or useful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I think this depends on the system of game-play development. Conventional CRPGs tend to have game play development system through both character abilities and their equipments. However, in most of FPS' case, the abilities of the characters are almost always same and it is rather weapons which decide the role of each character. Remember the change from Deus Ex to Deus Ex: Invisible War? Also, just for reference, I linked a movie clip on the "equipment development" system of Rainbow 6 Vegas 2 in "3rd Person, RPG, Sci-Fi, Squad Based" thread. If Aliens RPG have a character development system, whether it is through classes/skills, then, there may be problems, where a certain weapons turn out to be useful from being useless for depending on character-builds. Abilities such as crafting makes thing more complicated, too. This is probably why conventional RPGs tend to be forgiving in terms of inventory capacity.

 

On the other hand, I 'd like to see limited inventory in Aliens RPG for the sense of survival, opposing to settings such as Rainbow Six. As for a compromise (rather than a solution), I have already written about this in "Choose your own pace" thread. I want a bigger container/carrier, which is not available in certain areas. This would allow the players to choose weapons before entering these areas, means, a series of quests or, a mission starts.

 

That said, I have to confess that I haven't played any of Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry and Resident Evil 4 and I may have missed some important and/or obvious issues. Guess I am not quite a gamer...

Edited February 2, 200818 yr by Wombat

"A lot of FPS's get the limited ammo thing right, so I don't see why it's such a stretch for a CRPG to do the same.

 

"HA! Good Fun!"

 

you summed up josh's point... which is why it, and yours, sucks. this is a crpg, and unless aliens is crpg in name only, people is gonna have to choose a particular weapon or weapon set to specialize in. maybe give you and josh a few minutes to stew over, 'cause we can tell you both ain't getting the ramifications. but keep in mind that regardless o' what weapon or class a weapons a person chooses to focus 'pon, obsidian will make game beatable... and not just beatable. these games is designed so as not to overly frustrate. mull it over and maybe you see problems.

 

is not a fps. is different. don't assume that they is same, 'cause they ain't... 'less aliens ain't any crpg that would be recognizable as such to anybody who has played obsidian crpgs of past.

 

oh, and to ignore special's balance issues is to repeat mistakes it made... which were many. is not up to players to know (or guess) ahead of time which skills and weapons is superior or useful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Heh. I think it's you who is misunderstanding.

 

I'm not talking about a D&D crpg here. I'm talking about something better - like SS2, Deus Ex1, Bloodlines, Fallout.

 

These games all had a weapon specialisation system that was inclusive rather than exclusive. Specialising in weapons was about broad groups, not small exotic niches.

 

For this reason your point about there being a fundamental difference between CRPG and FPS weapons is kind of moot - it applies to games like Baldur's Gate 2, with its horrendously complex and specialised weapons system.

 

Of course, this all assumes that Josh and co. aren't following in the footsteps of BG2. Because I hope I speak for a lot of people when I say that broad weapon groups are better than niche weapon groups. Heck, they're easier to balance, too.

 

And don't twist my words. I never said anything about ignoring the balance issues of SPECIAL. It is simply the case that the balance of the SPECIAL isn't an issue because it is something that can be tweaked for Aliens. The system itself is very solid and it would be a good template to work off for the new Aliens skill system.

While I like your ideas because they would address some inherent problems of ease-of-use, there's a case to be made for immediacy: I don't think it's a good idea to have a stash of any sort. Rather, the player should be encouraged to use whatever is at hand and discard everything unimportant for his mission, and be further challenged with a compact inventory and scarcity of resources. I envision the game as something where the player character is aware that speed is of the essence, the infection is spreading or whatever. There's no sense, not to mention time, to hoard stuff for freaking interstellar commerce or for convenient health item stash. You pick up the most suitable weapon and equipment and update as you go on, maybe lob miscellaneous nano-tools and power-stabilizers(and powerarmor microcells) for the rest of the stragglers in your party, but you don't have a horde of plasteel crates in a cargo hold somewhere.

 

No loothunt please. No wound-gel and heart-pack hoarding either. I had 70 health packs with me about halfway through Undying and I had about 140(!) medipacks at the end of KotOR 1. Please no.

While I like your ideas because they would address some inherent problems of ease-of-use, there's a case to be made for immediacy: I don't think it's a good idea to have a stash of any sort. Rather, the player should be encouraged to use whatever is at hand and discard everything unimportant for his mission, and be further challenged with a compact inventory and scarcity of resources. I envision the game as something where the player character is aware that speed is of the essence, the infection is spreading or whatever. There's no sense, not to mention time, to hoard stuff for freaking interstellar commerce or for convenient health item stash. You pick up the most suitable weapon and equipment and update as you go on, maybe lob miscellaneous nano-tools and power-stabilizers(and powerarmor microcells) for the rest of the stragglers in your party, but you don't have a horde of plasteel crates in a cargo hold somewhere.

 

No loothunt please. No wound-gel and heart-pack hoarding either. I had 70 health packs with me about halfway through Undying and I had about 140(!) medipacks at the end of KotOR 1. Please no.

The idea is that the players cannot carry huge amount of items but that they are allowed to have some stocks and/or supplies. In KotOR, the "cargo" would be Ebon Hawk. However, when leaving it to start a mission (or enter a map/"dungeon"), the players have to choose equipment for their characters. In FPS format, it would be briefing stages. So, depending on the nature of missions/maps, I think it would not be that tough to create the feel of immediacy or survival.

 

That said, at the end of the day, I think the issue hugely depends on the game-play development system. In FPS format, where mainly only equipments (weapons/items/gears) are customizable, I don't think a strict inventory would become a problem but in CRPG format, where both characters and items are customizable, a strict inventory may harm some game-plays such as crafting and/or penalize a jack-of-all trade characters. Each format has its strength and weakness and some designers come up with hybrids, of course.

 

That said, all of these depend on the game-design, which is not revealed much yet. Personally, I don't mind whether the designers go for conventional CRPG format or FPS format as long as the systems work well.