Bad Idea or Good Idea?

[Sand]

Its Good Idea/Bad Idea time. Everyone who has had an immigration discussion with me knows I am against giving amnesty to illegal immigrants, but am in favor of immigration reform to make it easier for people to get guest worker visas and make the path to citizenship easier and less costly. That, however, would not solve the illegal immigration problem.

 

My idea is this, give those who are here illegally a path of citizenship through military service. Those who fit physical and mental requirements for combat and support roles, men and women, can apply to the military to get training, serve the country, and gain opportunities for full fledge citizenship. Serve maybe 4 to 6 years of active service, complete and pass the citizenship test requirements during that time and if they get a general or honorable discharge they become U.S. citizens. If they become wounded to the point they cannot actively serve they have their base enlistment period to complete the citizenship requirements on the government's bill.

 

With this method we will be able to give a clear path of citizenship to illegals while the same time strengthen our military.

 

Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

[Gorth]

The romans tried that. Just look how that ended...

[Walsingham]

We already do it in the UK. the last man to win a Victoria Cross, pte Johnson Beharry, was originally from Grenada.

 

The real problem/danger is that we ignore the fact that people within the country don't consider military service worthwhile. Where the social contract is so degraded then all walks of public life suffer, not just the Army. Poor enlistment is just a symptom.

[Kaftan Barlast]

This idea is wrong and unethical for several reasons:

 

 

- It is very wrong to force a poor mexican man to risk everything by putting himself in harms way for years to become a citizen, while say, a middle-class Swede can just walz in and attain citizenship without a hassle because he was born into better circumstances.

 

- To send out a countrys poor and unwanted to die on the battlefield while serving the interests of the rich and prosperous is a practice that is as old as it is barbaric and cruel.

 

- No man should be forced or coerced into risking life and limb for a cause he does not believe in. Military service must be voluntary and the soldiers must be compensated fully for the risks they take in the service.

 

 

And also, why the military? Isnt there hundreds of other ways you could use the manpower? Why not let them plant new forrests, care for the edlerly etc. ?

[Walsingham]

This idea is wrong and unethical for several reasons:

- It is very wrong to force a poor mexican man to risk everything by putting himself in harms way for years to become a citizen, while say, a middle-class Swede can just walz in and attain citizenship without a hassle because he was born into better circumstances.

 

I agree, with reference to your last point.

 

- To send out a countrys poor and unwanted to die on the battlefield while serving the interests of the rich and prosperous is a practice that is as old as it is barbaric and cruel.

 

I agree. But that's not really ever going to change. Firstly the rich and successful are already employed (with the exception of our old officer class), and secondly the poor are simply better soldiers. They are tougher, more resourceful, and more used to people being mean to them. Combat useful skills.

 

- No man should be forced or coerced into risking life and limb for a cause he does not believe in. Military service must be voluntary and the soldiers must be compensated fully for the risks they take in the service.

 

I agree up to a point. but soldiering cannot be a matter of personal whim on the day. Nonetheless your basic point is merely echoing Gen. Mike Jackson. he argued society was ignoring its obligations to its defenders viz housing, healthcare, and recognition.

 

And also, why the military? Isnt there hundreds of other ways you could use the manpower? Why not let them plant new forrests, care for the edlerly etc. ?

 

As I said in point one, society has a great many needs unrelated to warfare. Moreover, not every immgrant would make a good soldier.

[Morgoth]

If they're illegal they should get their arses straight to Iraq, relieving some of the troops there.

[Walsingham]

Why shouldn't US citizens, who've lived and enjoyed the country put forward their time?

 

I think all i'm saying is that volunteering for the Forces should aid citizenship, alongside other key areas of need. but making obligatory sounds like a damned silly idea.

 

Quite apart forom the complex philosophical questions arising, what on Earth makes you guys think the army wants thousands of unenthusiastic non-English speaking 'draftees' when it is trying to fight a smart counter-insurgency campaign?

[Xard]

The romans tried that. Just look how that ended...

 

Eh, they didn't do that with immigrants specifically. Also, the great tumbling down of roman military strenght and quality doesn't really have connection to that.

 

On topic:

 

Sure, why not. For the lulz if there's no other reason.

[Fionavar]

The romans tried that. Just look how that ended...

 

Pretty well considering the longevity of the Empire and its ongoing resonance approximately 1600 years+ after the fall of the Western portion of the empire (and that is not even referencing the Eastern ...)

[Sand]

No one is forcing the illegal immigrants to go to war. They would have a choice in the matter. If they don't want to join up then they can either stay hiding and worrying about being dported, or be deported when caught. It is a way for these peole to get legitimate immigrant status instead of breaking our laws. Its just amazes me that some of the people here have absolutely no respect for our laws.

 

Also Kaft, we are talking about illegal immigrants, not legal immigrants. I am all for changes to the immigration laws that makes it equally easy for the poor mexican farmer or the swedish doctor to come into our country legally. However, if either one came to the country illegally, this would be an option for them to stay legally.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Sand

[theslug]

See this is what I absolutely hate. People are still feeling like we owe these people some kind of obligation when we don't owe them anything except a billy club to the face. Oh we have to honor that they aren't soldiers and what not. Obviously not all illegals are fit to join the military, just like they aren't fit to be in this country unless they can actually provide something worthwhile for us. As much as I wish we could just pack all of them up and send them back to Mexico and have a shoot to kill order put in place on the border that's not realistic or diplomatic, then again the only ones making concessions is the U.S.

 

I do believe that their still needs to be a drastic deportation of illegals through means of making it illegal for companies to hire illegal immigrants and sending any illegal who breaks any law back to Mexico. Also sanctuary states should have their budgets cut so that they stop selling out their own country, it's damn shameful.

 

1. $397 billion dollars have been paid to illegal immigrants through social services since 1996.

2. The number of illegal aliens who are in prison is over 600,000.

3. The estimated annual cost to hospitals and other providers of emergency health care nationwide for illegal aliens is $1.45 billion.

4. In border states illegal immigrants push hospitals to the breaking point putting real Americans at risk.

5. Illegal immigrants trying to get to the United States via the Mexican border with southern Arizona are suspected of having caused eight major wildfires this year, this report says. The fires destroyed 68,413 acres (about 108 square miles) and cost taxpayers $5.1 million to fight

 

A portion of illlegal immigrants also make up gangs that commit violent acts, they promote slum living and just spread poverty by overtaking poor black neighborhoods through violence and power gained through drug deals.

 

As for reform, it definitely needs to take place.

 

1. Make it illegal for companies to hire illegal immigrants.

2. Any illegal found to be using a stolen identity (present, previous, or future) must be deported and cannot enter the United States again.

3. Must be literate in English, both spoken and written.

4. Must get equal and fair wages.

5. Must undergo some sort of processing that is mandatory they pay for and not American citizens. Finger printing, DNA, medical review, etc.

6. Must have a clean record and go a few years without having any major convictions. (ie battery and above)

7. No more Birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants.

[Gorgon]

America owes its success to people comming there in the hope of bettering their situation. If you want the borders harder to cross, make them harder to cross, but you can't fault people for exploiting opportunity and trying to make everything they can of their lives.

 

This reaction to unwanted immigration tends to lead toward some rather unsavory extremes, it already has in Europe, where the extreme right are feeding on this resentment and have created a permanent political force.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Gorgon

[Sand]

I personally don't want borders harder to cross. I want to make them easier to cross legally but harsher penalties for those who do cross illegally.

[Tigranes]

I am slightly confused, Sand. From what I remember of the previous discussion regarding illegal immigrants, you rejected a suggestion that illegal immigrants who are on good behaviour, work hard to assimilate themselves and contribute to the community should be given amnesty, and asserted that while borders should be easier to cross legally, those who have already entered illegally should be given no leeway. But isn't your suggestion of military service as a 'way in' for those already illegal immigrants working along the same logic? Is it the case of you changing your mind a bit, or is there a distinction here I have yet to grasp?

 

I would furthermore question whether military service would really make an illegal immigrant 'worthy' of the legal right to live in the U.S. I would have thought that, just like legal immigrants, one would want any foreigner living in the United States to be a contributor to the community and a well assimilated citizen long-term; meaning things like skills required for a long-term job, English skills, and cultural proficiency regarding the American way of life. Military service would not very efficiently equip an illegal immigrant with any of these things. Why do you think that military service is an appropriate way for illegal immigrants to earn their right to live? If you were going to give illegal immigrants any way of earning their right to live (as opposed to deporting them all or leaving things the way they are), would it not be encouraging them to attain linguistic/cultural proficiency and demonstrate skills and thus prove to the US that they have a sustainable model for living in the country and can contribute to the community? I would think their staying in the US society, and being detected by the US agencies, would be more productive than being shipped off to Iraq or something.

 

It should be noted that I am speaking entirely separate to the question of whether illegal immigrants 'should' be cared for, or 'what good are those foreigners anyway', or whatnot. I'm just responding exactly to Sand's original suggestion and asking some questions.

[Xard]

Sand's obsession with laws, "justice" and righteous acts never ceaces to irk me. But here I think this would be quite neat solution - and lulzy. Especially if going with 25 year service like romans did

 

Of course, it's depatable if military is really right place to put immigrants but really, making America one huge Vault City has certain humor in it

Edited December 30, 2007 by Xard

[Sand]

I just think that if we are to give illegals leeway we need to do so in a way that it will benefit the US the most. With all the wars we are getting ourselves into thanks to the Republicans mishandling of foreign policy I figure one way illegals can contribute is through military service.

 

And for the record I balk at the "good behavior," Tigranes. Good behavior means they are following the laws of this country and the very fact they are here illegally means they are not showing "good behavior."

[Tigranes]

But wouldn't it benefit the US most to end up with integrated immigrants who can actually speak/write English to a decent level, understand to a reasonable degree the US culture, and have enough skills to support themselves and their family? So that they don't fall into poverty or destitution, they don't raise the crime levels, they don't leech money from the social services, so that they contribute to society? I think that is a much more important benefit from the US' point of view rather than 'free' soldiers.

 

By the way Sand, in another thread you said recently that 'making dumb decisions doesn't mean someone is always dumb', or something along those lines, about Bush. The same logic can apply here. Of course entering illegally did not show 'good behaviour', but to say that they are then incapable of showing 'good behaviour' afterwards and integrating themselves would be a logical fallacy. I am not going to debate with you about whether it's right or wrong to give illegal immigrants a way in in the first place, as I said before: but since you began the discussion with the possibility of giving illegal immigrants a way in (through military service), I assume you are not at the moment taking the point of "illegal immigrants are illegal, they should leave, all of them, the end". So, *if* we are going to give illegal immigrants any way 'in' to the US, wouldn't it be better to do so in a way that gives the US the maximum social benefit, and isn't quite so bad for the immigrants either? I'm not sure how it will help the US or the situation in general to have random illegal immigrants, some of whom will hardly be able to speak English, go into your army, serve for a while, then come back and find they are legal immigrants but have no skills to sustain themselves.

[Sand]

You are beginning to make me think that this is a bad idea. You are right, if we give illegals one way in then other avenues should be available and the only thing that will lead to is amnesty. I am against giving any sort of amnesty towards criminals and that is what illegal immigrants are since they broke our laws to get inside the US. They are criminals. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[Gorgon]

I guess i'm more of an individualist than I thought. I can't seem to get myself excited about illegal immigration or the least bit mad on behalf of my country.

 

There is an obvious distinction between breaching the social contract, and acting in the interest of bettering the lives of yourself and your children, and lets face it, it's not that you don't want immigration, it's that you don't want the ones that aren't rich already. There are plenty of greencards written out for highly skilled workers.

 

There has to be some kind of Irony in the fact that in 50 years, when Latinos will be the largest demographic in the US, it will be the children of those same immigrants who will be keeping out those huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Gorgon

[theslug]

Except if Mexicans become the majority of America it will be an impoverished and corrupt nation that will fall if it already hasn't.

[Gorgon]

In that case they won't be Mexicans, they will be Americans.

[Guard Dog]

Except if Mexicans become the majority of America it will be an impoverished and corrupt nation that will fall if it already hasn't.

 

Slug when I first read this I laughed because I thought you were blending sarcasam and drama. Then I realized you were serious. I was going to post something to repudiate you until I realized the Mexicans have owned Mexico for almost 200 years and they haven't exactly turned it into a paradise. So...

[Pop]

I'm not particularly enamored of the armed forces myself, but the risk of being in the army is often exaggerated. These days, even in times of conflict, the chances that you'll die in the service are relatively small. A big part of that is due to medical tech, of course. Many more amputees than there used to be. I'd expect them to fix Veteran's Affairs first before making any sort of big push to fill out enrollment lists.

 

Aside from that, military service is as legitimate a route to any for citizenship. Better than most, in some respects. At least it ought to be.

 

Theslug, Dark Raven and Guard Dog, you're on the wrong forum.

 

[Edited by SteveThaiBinh to remove link]

Edited December 31, 2007 by SteveThaiBinh

[Dark_Raven]

Why the hell would there be illegals in the military? They're not even citizens.

 

 

Someone mention Rome which is a very good comparison. Look what happen to Rome when they became the melting pot of civilization. Same thing that is happening to America.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Dark_Raven

[Pop]

The idea that the United States could somehow insulate itself from the rest of the world is patently ridiculous. We live in the age of the ****ing internet, for God's sake. Every man, woman and child retreating to South Dakota with their dogs, guns and meth labs wouldn't insulate them.