SECESSION! Groups plot to split the USA

[Guard Dog]

In all seriousness, the idea of the US breaking up has always seemed a little far fetched. Despite the differences in politics, culture, etc, in all the different regions of the country there is still a strong national identity, common language, and shared history. That was not true at all in 1861 where most people identified themselves by what state they lived in.

 

However, it is not inconceivable. The country has become very polarized politically speaking and that is a phenomenon that can be tracked geographically. And it is not expected to change within the next generation or so. It is not unreasonable to suppose that a future president with the complicity of a single party dominated congress could enact something that certain states simply could not live with. Like nationalizing private businesses or property for example. That would be enough to make me fight. Since the Constitution protects the citizens from the government it would have to be a serious constitutional breach to provide the catalyst. That said I doubt that would ever happen.

[Gfted1]

And just think Aram, if you ever want to make improvements to Awesomeland just declare war on the US then surrender. The US will come in and build all new for you.

 

 

The Mouse That Roared

[Sand]

I rather liked that movie.

[Sand]

In all seriousness, the idea of the US breaking up has always seemed a little far fetched. Despite the differences in politics, culture, etc, in all the different regions of the country there is still a strong national identity, common language, and shared history. That was not true at all in 1861 where most people identified themselves by what state they lived in.

 

However, it is not inconceivable. The country has become very polarized politically speaking and that is a phenomenon that can be tracked geographically. And it is not expected to change within the next generation or so. It is not unreasonable to suppose that a future president with the complicity of a single party dominated congress could enact something that certain states simply could not live with. Like nationalizing private businesses or property for example. That would be enough to make me fight. Since the Constitution protects the citizens from the government it would have to be a serious constitutional breach to provide the catalyst. That said I doubt that would ever happen.

We may not agree on many things, Guard Dog, but woudl agree with this.

[taks]

The country has become very polarized politically speaking and that is a phenomenon that can be tracked geographically.

i personally don't think this polarization is as bad as the media and/or politicians (left or right) would have you believe. those that spend a lot of time posting on blogs, writing letters to the editor or simply speaking out, indeed the activist sorts, probably are, but that really only constitutes a small minority of the population. most people, politically speaking, are very centric overall, with only minor differences separating them. the biggest change between now and say, 50 years ago, is that the activist minority has a sort of bully pulpit in the internet and there are literally hundreds of TV channels to watch, with every extreme view point broadcast at some time or another throughout the day. even the geographical "split" in US ideologies is a bit of a myth. most of the so-called "blue states" were only 52-48 in terms of voting, and those that vote only constitute a minority to begin with. same for the "red states". there are a few exceptions, primarily in the smaller states, but overall, we're not nearly as divided as the media and politicians would have you believe. most people don't hold very solid ideologies, and ultimately only think about what will impact their wallets. hence, government health care is doomed for the foreseeable future, tax cuts are almost always welcome, etc.

 

btw, key west seceded in 1982 to form the conch republic. their motto is "we seceded where others failed!" all publicity of course, but still funny.

 

taks

 

edit: 1982, not 1985...

Edited October 4, 2007 by taks

[Yuusha]

Wow... The States are breaking up? Why?

[Hurlshort]

Wow... The States are breaking up? Why?

 

Yoko Ono

[Aram]

Wow... The States are breaking up? Why?

 

A lot of people blame Yoko Ono.

[Aram]

Hah!

[Yuusha]

LOL!!!

 

If Yoko Ono were to marry Sonny Bono, imagine what her full name would be.

[taks]

probably something like "Prisoner #72711" since sonny has been dead for quite some time now.

 

taks

[Calax]

I could see the states secceeding into smaller countries rather than fifty different microcountries.

[taks]

state secession from the US is unconstitutional.

 

taks

[Guard Dog]

After reading Taks post I did a little research and I was surprised to find there have been a number of attempts by groups within states to actually legally separate from the US. Most notably Michigan, Wisconsin, Washington, Oregon, and Alaska. In Alaska they actually tried to get it on the ballot in 2002. That ended in a big court battle that was ultimately decided by the Supreme Court of Alaska in Kohlhaas v State of Alaska. In the decision, Sect 4, paragraph B the Court emphatically states "Secession is unconstitutional". They cited Texas v White for it's interpretation of Article 4. The argument for was based on extrapolating the meaning of the 9th Amendment since the Constitution does not specifically say "Thou Shalt Not Secede". All of the efforts have either died from lack of support or were legally defeated. So it seems the only way it would ever happen is by force of arms, or act of Congress. Which means it won't happen.

 

The US is like a jealous lover, once she has you she never...ever... lets go.

[SteveThaiBinh]

state secession from the US is unconstitutional.

 

taks

That's shockingly undemocratic. What about the right to self-determination?

[Dark_Raven]

There is no self-determination. Freedom is an illusion. The people are giving certain liberties to further the illusion but in the end, Big Brother reigns supreme.

[Gorth]

It is one of those rulings that has a distinct odour to it...

 

Judges voted 5-3 that they can't secede. The 5 votes were coincidentally the judges appointed by Abraham Lincoln. Go figure

[Pop]

state secession from the US is unconstitutional.

 

taks

That's shockingly undemocratic. What about the right to self-determination?

I don't believe Woodrow Wilson wrote the Constitution. Besides, the "right to self-determination" doesn't really include what ought to be considered a nation or how territory ought to be divided. Not to sound like a republican, but if we were to really take such a concept seriously prima facae, there wouldn't be much to prevent Mexico from annexing California or other parts of the US with significant populations of Mexican descent ala the Third Reich claiming the predominantly German-populated Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia (that is assuming immigrants would welcome such a proposition). A less extreme example would be meth-lab owning, munitions-hoarding survivalists in the flyover states, who would, we can imagine, jump at the chance to secede. Are we to take them seriously and establish enclaves?

Edited October 5, 2007 by Pop

[Hurlshort]

Uh, immigrants would not welcome a Mexican succession. Every Mexican I know believes their government is f-ed up and they are glad they have US or dual citizenship. You can be proud of your cultural roots and realistic about state of the government at the same time.

[SilentScope001]

That's shockingly undemocratic. What about the right to self-determination?

 

My belief is that you DO have the right to self-determination. So you don't have to listen to the Consitution. The Consitution says, "don't seccede". Fine. Then excerise your right of self-determation and fight against the Consitution, since the Consitution is meaningless unless you personally back that social contract. Do what Aram did, create Awesomeland. Or find an old oil rig and stay there, creating a brand new "Sealand". Nothing is stopping you.

 

If you want to have international recognition and larger territories though, what you really need however is some military force. You need to basically create a military unit and FIGHT against the government. Obivously, the government will ban all attempts to fight it. And, in the long term, are you willing to fight against the government? I may hate the two-party system, I may hate having my land being taken away by the evil government, but am I willing to go and kill people because of that?

 

Besides, it is totally democratic. The majority of people are against secession. Therefore, secession is illegal. There we go. Democracy does not have to mean "indivudal freedom", it just mean "rule by the people", even if said "people" decide to oppress the minority.

Edited October 5, 2007 by SilentScope001

[SilentScope001]

sorry, doublepost.

Edited October 5, 2007 by SilentScope001

[metadigital]

I would have thought there would be more countries trying to join the Union.

 

Interestingly, the EU is mid-decision about the admission of Turkey. As Michael Palin pointed out in one of his recent tv visits there, Turkey is a vast country (larger than any other single European nation in the EU). More interestingly, her neighbours are Iraq, Iran and Syria ...

[Dark_Raven]

More interestingly, her neighbours are Iraq, Iran and Syria ...

A good thing or a bad thing?

[Rosbjerg]

More interestingly, her neighbours are Iraq, Iran and Syria ...

A good thing or a bad thing?

 

Good thing - and bad thing..

 

It allows easier acces into the area, in case that should be necessary, and with a muslim neighbour, which is part of the European Union, maybe some of these states will back off a bit. Maybe even we will.

[Azarkon]

They could call the result 'Eurabia.'

 

I kid, I kid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or do I?