Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition is on the way...

[Humodour]

And you all wonder why so few devs post on these boards

 

I think it's more that D&D core rules are something close to peoples hearts and they don't want to see them bastardised. If you were actually discussing some part of Aliens you were working on I highly doubt they'd act rude towards you.

 

So you should totally start discussing Aliens.

[Dark_Raven]

GO BACK TO SCHOOL BULOCK

 

BOOOOO

 

BOOOOOOO

 

And you all wonder why so few devs post on these boards

 

The worst part is that you missed as many errors as you found.

Come now Joe, you're cool just like any other Dev here. Some of us are just die hard fans that don't like change. If it ain't broke don't fix it. My main issue is WotC bastardizing, trashing of the Forgotten Realms, my favorite setting. I won't stand with them tearing FR apart.

[Sand]

I think Sand just feels safe with things as they are and wants to stagnate further editions of D&D (which he simply needn't play) by abhoring any innovations.

 

I don't mind innovations one bit. What I do mind is change for the sake of change. If they are actually making the change for the better more power to them, but they are not. Level 1 is a newbie. Level 1 is a fresh out of the boot camp. No prior experience, no real world knowledge, or anything. The first few levels are suppose to be the make or break point for him or her. All WotC is doing is making PCs more uber so instead of actually playing DnD its SUPER DnD. Bring out the tights and cape sort of thing.

[Humodour]

I don't mind innovations one bit. What I do mind is change for the sake of change. If they are actually making the change for the better more power to them, but they are not.

 

You read their secret evil plan diaries, did you? Drat.

 

Level 1 is a newbie. Level 1 is a fresh out of the boot camp. No prior experience, no real world knowledge, or anything.

 

No, level 1 is at the least an average citizen - a farmer, a mage's apprentice, a baker. Plenty of real-world knowledge and no doubt some experience, at least 2nd hand, with the horrors and wonders of the world. And while at the least they are an average citizen, at the most they are a hero in the making, and nothing about that shouts "I just figured out which way to point a sword. DUUUUR" to me.

 

None (or very, very few) of the existing NPCs in the D&D universe started out as the "level 1 is a fresh out of the boot camp" types you describe, so why should all the heroes players create suddenly fit that type?

 

Don't mistake any of this for the omission of levels. But level 1 shouldn't mean "I can't tie my shoelaces, oh look a goblin nicked me and because I'm a wizard that means I'm dead. Pitty - if I was a warrior, I could swing my 2-handed sword at it all day and miss!".

 

The first few levels are suppose to be the make or break point for him or her. All WotC is doing is making PCs more uber so instead of actually playing DnD its SUPER DnD. Bring out the tights and cape sort of thing.

 

Oh so playing a game about magic is fine, but playing a game which directly claims to be about extraordinary people is somehow bogus? Super DND it may be, but only in the sense that it acknowledges there is nothing normal or ordinary about somebody who will go on to fight the extraordinary such as dragons or powerful wizards - because it simply is NOT something every person has the ability inside them to do.

 

You know nothing about whether or not this will make characters more uber (especially considering how uber they are now, which you so easily forget). From what I can gather it's more about a partial redistribution of power so that there's a more fluid and consistent experience for the entire game.

 

And finally, no it won't play exactly the same as 3rd edition. If you want 3rd edition, play 3rd edition. I mean really - how could it possibly affect you in any way if you think there's nothing wrong with 3rd ed you can't fix with current rules or house rules? The first few levels may not be the make/break point in 4th edition. Perhaps the entire game will be a struggle as the first few levels were? Who knows. What we do know is that it is a DIFFERENT game, and that it should not be strictly compared to previous editions because of this. After all, what made you think the level system of the previous editions was so flawless and perfect? That they didn't change it? Weak argument, that.

[Magister Lajciak]

But in fourth edition they won't be. You won't be a weakling that gets murdered by a lucky hit from a goblin, or a wizard whose most powerful spell has a decent chance to either miss said goblin or not drop him if it does hit. That sounds a great deal more appealing to me, and I think it deals well with the fact that DnD 3/3.5 really isn't fun till around 4th level, when you character can actually get through most sessions doing things that are unique to their class, or at least flavored by their class abilities.

 

I mostly agree, though I would place the cutoff at level 3 rather than 4. Nonetheless, sometimes I do want to start playing just slightly above the power of normal people and 1st level in 3/3.5E provides for that option. In 3/3.5E there is nothing stopping me from starting a game at 3rd level if I wish to avoid the lower levels, but in 4E it will be very difficult to start the game close in power to ordinary humans as 1st level will already be similar to level 3 or 4 of 3/3.5E.

 

This change is still probably for the best, as it expands the range of levels that will be enjoyable under most situations, but I don't find it entirely clear cut.

[Sand]

1e and 2e were flawed, and I welcomed 3e. 3e had some problems but they were fixed with 3.5e. 3.5e is pretty much next to flawless in my opinion. Not perfect mind you, but nothing made by human hands will ever be. 3.5e works and works well. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

[Joseph Bulock]

And you all wonder why so few devs post on these boards

 

I think it's more that D&D core rules are something close to peoples hearts and they don't want to see them bastardised. If you were actually discussing some part of Aliens you were working on I highly doubt they'd act rude towards you.

 

So you should totally start discussing Aliens.

 

If only I was working on Aliens...

[Sand]

If only I was working on Aliens...

 

Eh?

 

What are you working on?!?!?!

 

[Tale]

He's probably just downloading porn on the company dime.

[Magister Lajciak]

And you all wonder why so few devs post on these boards

 

I think it's more that D&D core rules are something close to peoples hearts and they don't want to see them bastardised. If you were actually discussing some part of Aliens you were working on I highly doubt they'd act rude towards you.

 

So you should totally start discussing Aliens.

 

If only I was working on Aliens...

 

Perhaps a new expansion to NWN2? I wish! (I love what Obsidian created in the Mask of the Betrayer!)

Or... perhaps a new D&D game with a ruleset on 4E?

 

Either way, please check out my suggestion on tying it to changes in the Realms: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=48544

 

[Xard]

Oh god no, last thing I want from Obz right now is another D&D game, unless it's NWN2's expansion pack

 

Which would be awesome if it's same quality as MotB

Edited December 12, 2007 by Xard

[Magister Lajciak]

Which would be awesome if it's same quality as MotB

 

Indeed! The only problem is that they set their bar rather high with the last expansion (so expectations are high too) and that (judging from the postings on MotB boards) apparently a significant segment of the gaming population did not like exciting and innovative mechanics such as the Spirit Meter, which may make Obsidian reluctant to implement something like that in the future, even though it was brilliantly tied into the story.

[Tigranes]

Sand has taken over this thread. Alert! Alert!

 

Sand, wasn't the logic put to you by others that:

- WoTC have a clear purpose and reason for changing things. However, you may not like this purpose, or think its a crap purpose. But it's still a purpose for them and they are not changing 'for the sake of changing things.'

 

Assuming for now that they are right and WoTC are following a clearly defined objective, your current reply is:

 

- It doesn't matter, I think the changes they are making are crap, and therefore that means they have no clear purpose and they are changing for the sake of changing things.

 

Something fell off there, no?

 

If you were to say that what we know of 4e so far doesnt seem to focus into any sort of general directive, and thus 4e is a mess for changing things randomly, then there would be a point. Or, if you were to say, you don't like 4e because you don't like the changes they're making, that would be a fair enough opinion. But I'm not sure why you feel the need to essentially say that if they're making changes unpalatable to you, then they don't have a clear purpose. I'm not sure about how I will feel about the low-level changes in the end, for example, but I can clearly see that they want to try and remedy what they believe is frustration for the low level player in line with their overall aim of providing a more streamlined and easier to understand adventure. Whether they will actually do so, or whether this is good, is another matter.

[steelfiredragon]

drizzt is on the frcs 4.0

[Tale]

There's already a 4e Drizzt book out, even.

[steelfiredragon]

well it seams that the drizzt image was a placeholder...

[Magister Lajciak]

The cover is not important. It is the content that matters.

[steelfiredragon]

thats true

 

but what if both reek like a 3 day old diaper from a newborn icu

[Magister Lajciak]

thats true

 

but what if both reek like a 3 day old diaper from a newborn icu

 

Than we would have a problem.

 

It is difficult to say whether that is the case, though, since we don't know what the ruleset is like yet. From the hints we have been given thus far there appear to be both some good and some bad things...

[steelfiredragon]

the axing of many of the higher lvl npcs, this was bad.

 

those npcs though were never to be in user end campaigns.

 

if the pcs fail game over man game over.

 

the number of gods they are combining.

 

the slaying of helm, and mystra.

 

 

this is just the bad and the tip of the iceberg too, well for me anyway

[Magister Lajciak]

the axing of many of the higher lvl npcs, this was bad.

 

those npcs though were never to be in user end campaigns.

 

if the pcs fail game over man game over.

 

the number of gods they are combining.

 

the slaying of helm, and mystra.

 

 

this is just the bad and the tip of the iceberg too, well for me anyway

 

Well, the axing of many NPCs seems rather idiotic from my point of view, since I like having a living breathing world, where things are happening in the background even in the absence of the PCs.

 

I did find the huge number of deities in the Realms confusing and unnecessary, so their culling is a positive change for me, but perhaps they should have gone about it in another way, one that would be more believable and more palatable to the fans.

[steelfiredragon]

thats true in a way they did have to many,but from what i hear so did Greyhawk.

 

but trying to say that selune and sehanine moonbow are the same is just bad.

I can buy Talos and Gruumsh being the same..... to a point.

 

A different way or a compromise....

[Joseph Bulock]

To bring this thread back from the dead....

 

Traps in 4th Edition

 

This makes me happy. While certain specifics are still very mysterious, I have to say that the general philosophy of the new edition makes me very hopeful. This could be because I'm a lazy DM, but whatever.

[Sand]

All I get is "Dragon articles require that you sign-in to D&D Insider to view the content." Since I am not getting D&D Insider and Dragon magazine is no longer in printed format I cannot read the article. Nice for Wizards of the Coast to make their website so unfriendly and soon you will be forced to pay for just to look at their website. I am not going to spend money on a bunch of zeroes and ones without a tangible product in my hands.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Sand

[Reinoc]

Huh? You need an e-mail address to register and that's it.