star wars books contradicting other books (and movies)

[DAWUSS]

EU sucks

 

Simple as that.

 

Only Kotors and Thrawn books should be allowed to live

 

How about we just throw out everything after ROTJ 'cept for the Thrawn trilogy, and we only take out the few crap pieces that exist before ROTJ. IMO it's after ROTJ when the significant crappage begins (ie, Vong, Legacy [we'll give Darth Talon and that Quarren Sith dude a pardon], Darth Jacen Solo, resurrected Palpatine...)

[Tale]

Because the Hand of Thrawn books are also good. I have Survivor's Quest too, but haven't read it.

[seejai]

i just started the whole yuzzon vong (i know. the spelling is superb) thing..... not all that excited

i think all the late clones were definately from mt whatever ( the emperors secret place)

[Xard]

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light."

Jesus Ted Theodore Logan Christ that is a gay line.

 

Now that you mention it...

 

 

AHAHAHAHAHA!

 

That's GOLD

[PHOENIXLAW]

Clones age at 2wice the rate of a normal person - a result of the accellerated growth they used.

[Barzarel]

There is a very simple reason for books and movies contradicting each other, its because George Lucas given license share to certain company to make products and such and aka he doesnt care what they make, he views the starwars movies as his vision of starwars and everything else is not the correct version, but he doesnt wish to check everything through to see if they make product exactly according to his version in some level i9 can understand the man he been bascially working his behinds off for years for many of ous greedy starwars fans, and most are still on grateful or have some for of unforfillment as to how they viewed the universe, if you seen any of the hardcore critic fans that view starwars as some kind of holy relic i feel sorry for the poor man to have to put up with that with a smile everyday.

 

EDIT: Some peoples next question would properly be why would he then give permission for product to be made the doesnt feel he has time or energy or simple dont want to check to the letter, that has a every simple answer again for the fans because the movie productions cost a very fair bit of money if it has to be up technologically to date with the current movie productions, its why you often see George Lucas encourage people to buy alot to give resources to make film productions.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Barzarel

[Darth Mortis]

LucasArts employs (or employed) someone who's job is to check all Starwars books and written material to make sure it conforms to what has been said before. Even the computer games have to pass through this check before they will be licenced (although I would guess that they are granted more lattitude in some technical areas to gameplays sake). This is why if you pick up a StarWars source book from 1983 and compare it to one written in 2007 all the various Starships have the same number and type of weapons in both (even the same model of blasters etc). As I said, I think the games are given a bit more freeway, since-for example-the A-Wing is a fighter you can fight with in X-Wing (Set just before and during A New Hope) even though all the sources say that that class of fighter wasn't designed until after the Battle of Yavin.

 

That does, however, lead me to a contrictiction-since the A-Wing was meant to have been designed by General Dodonna (The guy with the white beard who gives the briefing for the attack against the first Death Star) after the Battle of Yavin IV. However the X-Wing series of books (and a few other EU sources) make it clear that Dodonna was captured by the Empire on Yavin IV shortly after the Battle.....and by shortly I mean within a few weeks at most.

[Darth Hades]

In relation to Vapaad....yes Windu created Vapaad.

 

He did not however, create Form VII or primarily called Juyo. Form VII was incomplete, it wasn't until Windu created and mastered Vapaad that it became a masterful Form.

 

Ofcourse bits of misinformation will be offered, especially if the entire universe of star wars has not been properly "retconned"

[DeathScepter]

don't forget typos and late nights writing and editiors missing ****.

[Darth Mortis]

I think part of the problem with Vapaad was that they decided Mace should have his own unique fighting style, either because of the way Samuel Jackson tended to handle and fight with a sabre or because they wanted to explain why someone so (Relativley) young was on the Jedi council-inventing a new lightsabre form would imply a great deal of skill knowledge and general ability. However they had also decided that Jedi should have various lightsabre forms, and I'm guessing that when they 'invented' Vapaad they hadn't quite decided how many forms there would be or their names. (Having several lightsabre forms makes perfect sense to me, and is something that I quite like).

 

I'm guessing that what happened is that they named all the forms, and set how many of them there would be, and then realised that they had either forgot about Vapaad or had failed to tell whoever was writing about Vapaad what they were doing-which has lead to lots of running around while they attempt to correct the error and lots of confusion, not helped by having someone give a Sith lightsabre form the same name. It would be interesting to see at which point they decided and named the forms-I'm guessing that it happened between Phantom and Clones. I'm also wondering if the lightsabre forms came about because of K2, if they did it would-to the best of my knowledge-be the first time a Starwars computer game altered all Starwars cannon. This is, however, conjecture as I've never seen anything to tell me quite how or when the Lightsabre Forms came about.

[Darth Hades]

I imagine somewhere before and outside of K2, lightsaber forms were mentioned, it may still be a fairly recent addition, but I think it adds a bit of flavor to something that for all intents and purposes, was rather 1-dimensional.

[sogi_ya]

Jesus, lets just lay down the law on this.....

 

 

George Lucas got high, watched Kurosawa's "the hidden fortress", then made all this **** up.

 

 

the new movies suck like Jenna Jamison, but in a bad way.

 

the only reason he made 'em is because he wanted more money.

 

 

if you need further proof watch "from star wars to Jedi" (it's a documentary)

 

there is a line in it where George Lucas looks dead into the camera and says "a special effect is just a tool, if you have no story, it's a very boring thing."

 

the new movies are all special effects, no story, and you know what ... he was right, total boredom.

 

if he actually did care when making the new movies, why didn't he listen to his own advice.

 

 

 

"hi my name is _______ and i am a recovering star wars junkie."

"every thing i say will be laced with cynicism."

[Jedi Master Dakari]

I agree with Darth Hades.

 

Vaapad is only a completion of Form VII (Juyo) which already existed, but was incomplete. Mace Windu, with help from Sora Bulq, took Juyo and finessed it into a complete and original lightsaber form. So yes, in that way, he did create it.

 

The mention of Vaapad in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction is an error that was missed and should not have been. As the author, Drew Karpyshyn says, "I meant Juyo, but it was a late night when I wrote that and didn't catch it until it was too late. That's one mistake I wish to God I could change. So when you read it and see 'Vaapad,' just pretend it says 'Juyo.'"

 

And that pretty much verifies what DeathScepter said. And I couldn't agree more.

 

Visit this page and it gives great information.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad

 

And yes, Wookieepedia is mostly canon. We won't allow things to be posted unless they can be reference or sourced to a valid work of canon. Sometimes things can get through, but sooner or later they are always found and corrected.

[DeathScepter]

I do see Juyo and Vaapad is like to Wing Chun to Jeet Kune do.

 

 

 

 

Wing Chun is a solid martial art by itself but Jeet Kune do was a personal finesse of Wing Chun By Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee was helped by his students like Dan Insanotoe(msp) to perfect Jeet Kune do.

 

 

 

 

SideNote: Jeet Kune do is more of a journey of self-discovery than a set of codifed techniques( althru Jeet Kune do has plenty to spare in and of itself).

[Darth Hades]

blah blah blah blah

 

 

Gotta love paraphrasing.

[Calax]

I miss the days before the newer trilogy when there was no such thing as forms or styles there was merely the force and using it.

[Dark Wastl]

That wasn't really done by the new movies, now was it?

 

The new movies didn't really change anything about the force, it added a small part, but nothing about forms or styles. That came from the EU. Now, one could say that those EU-stuff never would have happened without the new movies, but that's just speculation

[Calax]

That wasn't really done by the new movies, now was it?

 

The new movies didn't really change anything about the force, it added a small part, but nothing about forms or styles. That came from the EU. Now, one could say that those EU-stuff never would have happened without the new movies, but that's just speculation

find me a book with the mention of forms and styles or even special crystals in the lightsabers... From what I could tell they only came into being during the NJO which in and of itself is more of a mess than the previous era. Also a lot of the styles and forms came out after the prequel trilogy was put into production. Personally I think that the forms and crap is just a way for people to explain/retcon the vast difference in ability between the lukes of say, the crystal star and the Thrawn Trilogy.

[Kissamies]

The fighting styles definitely isn't NJO thing. Maybe they were invented on same time as NJO books were being written, but I think they are inspired by prequel movies. I recently re-read that series and can't remember them being mentioned anywhere there. Special crystals came earlier... probably in TotJ comics. My favorite EU era is generally on mid and early 90ies. I became less interested when they started writing the prequel stuff and I don't generally care about prequel era books nearly as much as other ages.

 

About Clone Wars and pre-prequel EU stuff. The subject seemed to be very much off-limits for authors and they were always dancing very carefully around the whole subject of Clone Wars and how the galaxy was before the Empire took over. This is especially notable in RPG books of that time. They are being very vague about how the Empire came into being and other history stuff. There was some assumptions to be read between the lines that everyone seemed to make, however. The main 2 that turned out wrong are:

1. The clones were the "bad guys" fighting against the Republic -> Stormtroopers aren't clones.

2. Clone Wars happened 30-40 years before the events of Ep. IV instead of about 20. Anakin turned evil sometime after the war.

 

#2 isn't so bad, but #1 kills a plot point in Thrawn Trilogy. In that, Luke hasn't sensed clones before and they feel weird. If at least some stormtroopers are still clones in GCW era, this can't be the case. Other than that it's pretty minor contradictions that can be handwaved away AFAIK.

[Calax]

The fighting styles definitely isn't NJO thing. Maybe they were invented on same time as NJO books were being written, but I think they are inspired by prequel movies. I recently re-read that series and can't remember them being mentioned anywhere there. Special crystals came earlier... probably in TotJ comics. My favorite EU era is generally on mid and early 90ies. I became less interested when they started writing the prequel stuff and I don't generally care about prequel era books nearly as much as other ages.

 

About Clone Wars and pre-prequel EU stuff. The subject seemed to be very much off-limits for authors and they were always dancing very carefully around the whole subject of Clone Wars and how the galaxy was before the Empire took over. This is especially notable in RPG books of that time. They are being very vague about how the Empire came into being and other history stuff. There was some assumptions to be read between the lines that everyone seemed to make, however. The main 2 that turned out wrong are:

1. The clones were the "bad guys" fighting against the Republic -> Stormtroopers aren't clones.

2. Clone Wars happened 30-40 years before the events of Ep. IV instead of about 20. Anakin turned evil sometime after the war.

 

#2 isn't so bad, but #1 kills a plot point in Thrawn Trilogy. In that, Luke hasn't sensed clones before and they feel weird. If at least some stormtroopers are still clones in GCW era, this can't be the case. Other than that it's pretty minor contradictions that can be handwaved away AFAIK.

actually it doesn't kill the plot point as the reason luke was able to disern a difference between clones and normal humans had to do with the fact that the clones were grown without a connection to the force when grown by thrawn whereas the ones in the prequil trilogy were grown the normal way (well semi normal) and had the force affecting them the entire time. Admittedly this is one of those gaps of fact that requires me to go into full geek mode but hey (puts on dungeon master hat and really thick glasses, also begins to wheeze) it works.

[Kissamies]

Hmm yes, that's a pretty good explanation if go fuzzy on the details. Of course they are still surprised in a "we haven't seen this kind of thing since Clone Wars" kind of way when they discover that Thrawn's soldiers are clones, but that's just a detail, not a plot point.

[Darth Mortis]

There are two reasonable explinations for Luke not having sensed clones before;

 

1; Clones, by the time of A New Hope, were rare in Imperial service. Several EU sources seem to indicate that between Revenge of the Sith and Hope Palpatine stopped relying on Clones for Imperial troops, instead replacing them with indoctranated humans-this would make sense for a lot of reasons which have already been mentioned I think. Cloning has been mentioned as being illegal under Imperial law, origionally it was assumed that this was because the Clone war was faught against clones. But after Sith it is more likely that the ban came around to prevent anyone from creating their own Clone army to threaten the Empire.

 

Given the rate clones (apparantly) age, and that they were used in dangerious situations-hence many would have been killed in the 20 years since Sith-and the lack of replacements it would be fairly logical to assume that the real number of clones still serving in Imperial forces at the time of Hope would have been very low. The remaining Clones would, most likely, have been kept for specalist duties, such as the Imperial Guard, and not been encountered by Luke before the Thrawn trilogy.

 

2; Although the Clones all shared the same genetic code they would not all think exactly the same way. Different experiences would lead to slightly different personalities over time. Assuming that the youngest clones still in Imperial service had been around for at least 15-20 years, it could be claimed that the differening experiences would lead to slightly different personalities, and hence a Jedi might not instantly be able to tell that two troopers were clones. It should be considered that the clones Thrawn was using were all very new, and probably a lot easier for a Jedi to sense as clones-even so Luke wasn't sure exactly what he was dealing with right from the start, he knew something was strange about them but not exactly what.

[Calax]

Actually mortis, if we were to run by the EU style of things, Clones would be outlawed by the empire immediately following the Clone Wars. Also before the prequels it was assumed by fandom that the Clone Wars were more of somthing along the lines of "Gee, clones got out of control and we had to put em down like Ol' Yeller" rather than massive clone and robot armies clashing all over the place.

[Kissamies]

In some early versions of ESB script, Lando was supposed to be a clone. The official EU take on stormtroopers these days seems to be that some of them are clones and some are not in GCW era. Maybe it's more cost effective or whatever to train ordinary people and they live longer than the forced-growth clones. Justifies the numerous earlier stories of human stormies and academies while keeping the cool clones around to be elite troops or whatever. Maybe the different writers just disagree on this.