Meshugger Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Ah, retrofuture. My bad, i forgot all about it "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 As for the lockpicking, I much rather have it be based on my character's skill in lockpicking for I am playing the character and not me. In a CRPG character skill needs to take precedence over player skill in nearly all aspects. So I take it you would also like combat to be resolved with a single die roll? After all, there's an extraordinary amount of player skill required to resolved the combat mini-game in RPGs. am pretty sure that josh is aware that he is not responding to poster's actual concern/problem. does crpg combat require skill? yeah... kinda. the skill required to overcome most crpg combats is a very limited and game-specific kinda skill that ain't twitch/reflex/eye-hand related in any way. is crpg combat as synapse burdening as is playing chess v. a grandmaster? not a chance, but is not some kinda glorified version o' tetris neither. want our coordination tested? will go to dr. and get a freaking physical... 'bout as much fun as is the stoopid lock pick nonsense from oblivion. kotor and kotor2's mini-game in which you do the racing stuff? if we wanted to play a racing game we would simply buy one of those nascar games. and part o' the problem Gromnir has with the twitch min-games is that they seems to be dependent 'pon multiple failures to be fun. is like the damn shooter and platform games that also requires twitch reflexes and gets all their gameplay hours from dozens of reloads to overcome the "hard parts." if the twitch mini-game is beatable on first try then it not afford the twitchy fans much fun, and is simply a momentary inconvenience for those of us who loathe such stuff... somebody has got to suffer. am knowing that josh likes shooters and games likes hitman... but Gromnir ain't a fan. not got no real thrill from button manipulation games, so mini-games based on same/similar principle aggravate us or bore us. want our eye-hand challenged? will go out and play real baseball or some other activity. is easy nuff to find rw eye-hand stuff. find tactical or strategic combat simulators in rl? can play chess at park we s'pose. hell, the reason we hates playing rts on-line is 'cause those games invariably becomes much more 'bout the ease with which you can manipulate buttons on keyboard than tactical or strategic planning... which ain't really what we finds fun 'bout such games. regardless, josh did purposefully pretends to misunderstand the poster's concern regarding min-games... which is kinda bad form. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 am knowing that josh likes shooters and games likes hitman... but Gromnir ain't a fan. I'm not sure if you're identifying Hitman as a shooter, but Hitman is pretty ho-hum as far as shooting mechanics go and generally doesn't require much aiming skill (mostly because your targets are moving very slowly). Hitman is a fun game because screwing around with AI is so entertaining. It's one of the same reasons why the Thief series games are so popular. If I recall correctly, Thief: Deadly Shadows (worst title ever) used no time limit on its lockpicking minigame, but guards would continue to walk around in real-time while you were working on the lock (as they would in Splinter Cell). Personally, I really like systems like that because it encourages me to either a) scout appropriately and ensure that no one's going to interrupt me or b) work like a furious madman to complete the game as fast as possible. You still have the option of doing everything at your own pace, but you run the risk of being interrupted unless you do appropriate recon first. regardless, josh did purposefully pretends to misunderstand the poster's concern regarding min-games... which is kinda bad form. The "poster's concern" was transparent: things that do not traditionally require player input/decision making in CRPGs should not require them. Mini-games do not need to be based on manual dexterity or "twitching", even if they are time-sensitive. The lockpicking in Oblivion does require a certain high level of manual dexterity (and pitch recognition), but the lockpicking in Hillsfar (probably my favorite lockpicking minigame) does not. I'd say Hillsfar's lockpicking requires a lower level of manual dexterity than Tetris, which is pretty low. The game is entirely about mental speed, how fast you can recognize the tumbler patterns in matching picks. If you wanted to take it a step further, you could look at turn-based puzzle games like Mastermind (the basis of which has been used for tons of minigames). This site is one of the main sources for casual/simple games: http://www.kongregate.com/ In here you'll find lots of games with a variety of mechanics, ranging from fully turn-based, go at your own pace to rapid twitch games. This is an example of a good turn-based one: http://www.kongregate.com/games/BubbleBox/mad-virus I kind of hate the implementation of it because it relies on color, but the basic idea could easily be adapted to something like "computer hacking" with a different visual presentation. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 The problem with the minigames is not just the mechanics though. The problem is that the skills they represent have no real point. Persuasion has no real purpose in Oblivion, ergo, the minigame isn't going to feel like it has much of a point. If bribery was not an option or was really freaking costly and money was scarce AND there were a lot more situations where you needed to get a specific emotional reaction from an NPC then the skill would actually have a use and playing the minigame would feel somewhat more purposeful. Granted, the persuasion minigame is totally b0rk3d since all you need to do is make sure to click the smallest wedge on the two negative reactions and you will always come out ahead regardless of skil level. Raising your persuasion skill isn't even useful as a stat modifier since personality has no real point either in the game. I can only imagine that there was some huge crack party going on in the developer offices the day the persuaion minigame was developed and then everybody was too embarrassed to take it out afterwards. The lockpicking minigame isn't quite as bad, but again the lockpicking minigame has no real required use. Yeah, you can pick a bazillion locks and get some bread loafs and repair hammmers and a handful of gold. W00t. At least it counts toward your agility modifier though. The lockpicking mingame is also pretty broken since once you get good with the minigame, skill is irrelvant. I crack very hard locks with crap skill all the time and breaking a pick is so rare that I am always surprised when it happens. One game I had 200 or so lockpicks and just stopped collecting them. Minigames on the whole are fine just makes sure they a) work and b) have a purpose. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Minigames on the whole are fine just makes sure they a) work and b) have a purpose. I totally agree. I would go a step further and say that all minigame elements need to feel like they fit together and with the game as a whole. As I wrote before, I think Oblivion's lockpicking worked better in this regard than Oblivion's persuasion minigame. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Minigames on the whole are fine just makes sure they a) work and b) have a purpose. I totally agree. I would go a step further and say that all minigame elements need to feel like they fit together and with the game as a whole. As I wrote before, I think Oblivion's lockpicking worked better in this regard than Oblivion's persuasion minigame. I thought the Skeleton key pretty much broke the lockpicking game. At least any difficulty from the minigame itself and any use for the skill. Which when judging it by hot it fits in the world, would give persuasion a one-up. I'd also like to add a c) to CrashGirl's post. c) are fun (or at least are not frustrating). Oblivion's weren't fun for me, they were frustrating. Unlike CrashGirl I would occsionally lose 5 lockpicks to supposedly easy locks. And it only got worse from there. By comparison, neither Theif: Deadly Shadows or Splinter Cell (any) caused any frustration, but they served a good purpose in taking up time during which a patrol could spot you. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 (edited) Hillsfar's system...I wonder why hasn't it been salvaged by newer games? Thief had two picks and required you to use them in combination, but had no visual component to it, while Hillsfar's was highly elaborate; lots of types, picks could(and would) break and time was a tiny resource, etc. Than again, it was much more integral to the game than...say Splinter Cell's lockpicking was. Edited July 2, 2007 by Musopticon? kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Well, in fairness to Bethesda, I've never seen a really great lockpicking minigame so it must be pretty hard to make one. The best one from gameplay standpoint that I can think of was Thief 3, but that worked well because it fit with the gameplay: After carefully counting out the guard's patrol round, you would know you had 30 seconds to open the lock and be through the door before the guard came around the corner again and the mechanics of the mingame were just complex enough to make you sweat under the time pressure. If the Thief 3 lockpicking minigame had taken place in "frozen time" like Oblivion's did it would have been quite boring. I think both of Oblivion's minigames would have fared better with some sort of built in time pressure or other limitation. If you only had one chance to make the persuasion minigame work then a higher skill would definitely be useful, but since you can click the wheel a million times without penalty, who cares. You would think that the poor NPC would eventually get tired of hearing the same dumb joke over and over again and clout you with a mace just for the heck of it. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I don't understand why anyone even bothered with Oblivion's lokcpicking, when you had Alteration. Sure, it was a fun for a while, but I really wanted to play a TES game instead and focused on doing that, instead of saving lockpicks. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 (edited) I can't honestly be fair to Bethesda about it, though. It is just so ridiculously frustrating for me at times. I can give them one bit of benefit of the doubt, that maybe I'm either relatively unique in my frustration with that minigame or that I'm underrepresented in their QA tests. After playing through Valve's games with commentary I see all the little changes they [speaking of Valve, not Bethesda, in this sentence, I'm not confused] make due to playtesting for even sometimes subtle or slight effects. If Bethesda had any playtesters who got as frustrated with it like I did (which I don't know that they do, again I could be unique or just underrepresented), I can't think of an excuse for them to not just completely pull that minigame and replace it with Morrowind's just for simplicity. But, I think this is off-topic. Minigames can have a place Oblivion's crappy minigames do not change that. Overall I'm hopeful about Fallout 3. Even if it were to be Oblivion with guns, I might have actually enjoyed Oblivion had it guns. Edited July 2, 2007 by Tale "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 to josh, 1) nonsense your hitman observations ignore fact that it is a twitchy button manipulation game. you say it is an easy such example of button manipulation. so what? is a shooter and requires manual dex to hit targets... am 'membering how you boasted 'bout your hit % or somesuch silliness on this board. if no skill is required, then why you crow 'bout hit %? and from personal pov, hitman has far too much button manipulation for us to enjoy. downloaded the demo for the newest hitman game, and played for 'bout ten minutes. never liked wasd, and hitman were more complicated than simple wasd. that ended Gromnir's foray into hitman games. josh says is easy and not much button manipulation? Gromnir says it is too much. folks who complains 'bout min-games in crpgs is too much button manipulation is probaly of the Gromnir school and not josh... and he knows it. 2) if you say so you claim that poster's concern were transparent, but you clearly misrepresented... on purpose. were not really a blanket condemnation of the notion o' mini-games, but were the oft repeated complaint that in a crpg the character's stats should contol skill checks rather than the skill of the player. such complaints is almost invariably complaints 'bout button mashing and manipulation. sure, we agree that not all min-games gotta be manual dex based. the kotor card game, while maybe not best example, is such a min-game that ain't dex based and is easily avoidable in kotor. you feel better that unnecessary step o' clarification needed be made? fine, is only the manual dex min-games, and mini-games that is unavoidable and requires numerous reloads to "win" that is bothersome to Gromnir... and no doubt to the earlier poster as well. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 If Oblivion with Guns == STALKER with XP and skills then I am already sold on FO 3. And I will buy 2 copies since the first one will undoubtedly wear out. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Damn, I hope yes. I'd buy it the instant. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Though I hate Bethesda and wish it as a company caught a horrible disease and died (lol), it wouldn't take many steps for them to make FO3 relatively enjoyable. 1) Choice and consequence. In this aspect, at least from very limited previews, it seems to be an improvement from Oblivion. Or, at least you get to blow up a town. That's better than nothing. The ways it sounds, though, they'll probably end up going into good/evil/neutral paths. But hey, Bioware can get away with it too. 2) Hire writers. 3) Don't freaking dumb down combat. The combat in Oblivion was a major step up from Morrowind, yes, but that doesn't mean it wasn't bloody atrocious. Melee in Dark Messiah (demo) is fun, melee in Oblivion isn't. With a (potential) emphasis on ranged weapons, they could get away with a decent FPS combat mechanic, but they could still screw it up. Shooting in Bloodlines wasn't particularly compelling. But that's what happens when you try to mix twitch and stats. An awkward compromise. This could be hit or miss. 4) Groin shots. 5) Fire Todd Howard. 6) Take pictures of all the $$$ they'll make and send it to Hades and Gabs. 7) Help finance Interplay's FO MMO. Make subtle references for FOPOS fans. 9) Catch a horrible disease and die ROFLTUNASANDWICH 10) Kill Role-Player. The list goes on, but hey, it's a start. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I can agree with the last suggestion, but I don't know about the others, particularly firing Todd Howard The Soil Erosion Man. I mean, man, that was revolutionary! kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Great. Not only is Llyranor being insulting but advocating violence on another poster. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Because it's **A*SF*AS&F(*AS hilarious. I'm being on-topic re: FO3!!!!1!1 (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogo Ribeiro Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 10) Kill Role-Player. <insert +4 nerd rage lightning bolt of intardnet seriousness> In any case you might just get your wish, but not by Bethesda's hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I haven't read through the whole thread, but I noticed the part about the partial level scaling, where the game bases the difficulty of an area based on what level the players is initially, then locks it there. So, if one were to rush to the last area of the game (as close as possible) he could have a bunch of low level critters in what should be the hardest part? Something doesn't seem right about this. "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I haven't read through the whole thread, but I noticed the part about the partial level scaling, where the game bases the difficulty of an area based on what level the players is initially, then locks it there. So, if one were to rush to the last area of the game (as close as possible) he could have a bunch of low level critters in what should be the hardest part? Something doesn't seem right about this. I was under the impression that this wouldn't happen for every area. They have stated elsewhere that it is possible to wander into areas where you'll get your butt handed to you if your character & equipment isn't up to snuff. I'd imagine that the areas where the end of the main quest occur would be one such location. That said, the game is still a long way off, and overall pacing, balance, and the finer points of difficulty in various areas are the type of things that I imagine wouldn't be finalized until they have a pretty complete build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Raven Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Hai Guys! I found a new site where we can bash FO3 some more!!! It's called RPG Codex! You can get there by cliking on thsi link!!!!!! http://www.rpgcodex.com See you there, guys!!!! I think you might just be my new best friend. RPG Codex is the best site out there! Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 (edited) honestly, Gromnir ain't all that interested in fo3, but we is glad that bethesda is making for 2 reasons. first, we loves vd's journalistic approach to new fo3 news. no matter what bethesda says, they is screwed at codex, and to sees the codexian staff go to work on each new preview or interview likes the the pack o' rabid, frothing dogs they is makes Gromnir feel something close to joy. codexians live down to expectations is one of those constants of the universe that we can always depend 'pon. also, we cannot wait until fo3 sells... big. not only will every codexian b&m 'bout how people bought into the hype and ignored the crap, but pretty much every codexian is gonna buy the bethesda offering anyways, even if they not admit. is gonna be even more fun to watch as fo3 outsells fo and fo2 combined and then gets to watch the predictable codexian fallout following such an eventuality. ... is too bad that bio ain't making fo3. woulda' been even more fun to sees biowarians and codexians going at each other. *sigh* have never understood the people who likes to see car crashes or disasters caught on film. lowest common denominator entertainment. even so, watching the fo3/codex car crash as it occurs is compelling stuff 'cause not only is nobody really getting injured, but 'cause the folks in the metaphorical car is all retarded jackarses. HA! Good Fun! Edited July 2, 2007 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Opus Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I haven't read through the whole thread, but I noticed the part about the partial level scaling, where the game bases the difficulty of an area based on what level the players is initially, then locks it there. So, if one were to rush to the last area of the game (as close as possible) he could have a bunch of low level critters in what should be the hardest part? Something doesn't seem right about this. Baby steps, man, baby steps. They tried scaling the entire world with you, and when they found out that people didn't like it, they decided to scale back the scaling to a per-area basis. My bet is that their "brushstrokes" are still WAY too broad for this to feel in any plausible or accomplish what level scaling is intended to, and that it'll still draw a boatload of criticism when all is said and done. IMO, level scaling needs a lot of fine detail in its application if it's going to work all the way around (game difficulty and consistency with the setting) and this approach is still too heavy handed. Still... Baby steps. By the time Fallout 6 comes around, they should have fine-tuned it to something that almost works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 (edited) Man, have any of you guys enjoyed playing a rogue/thief character in any RPG? I mean, for doing roguey/thiefy things, not just backstabbing/sneak attacking guys? They are the most boring class in the world when they are played like their tabletop equivalents. Shockingly, I actually enjoyed playing a thiefy character in Oblivion because at least hiding and lockpicking had something more to them then mashing a button and letting random numbers generate until I failed a task. Yes. Rogue is my prfered class in DnD styled games and I had a lot of fun playing one in NWN2. As I said, I don't want minigames. I want a computer role playing game that makes use more of my character's skill than my own skill as a player when determining success or failure in a skill check. Unfortunately it seems a lot of developers out there have the same views as you do, J.E., which is why I have very little interest in computer gaming any more. Edited July 2, 2007 by Sand Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokishi Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 i'll probably get this since Oblivion i thought was decent, even though I never beat it Current 3DMark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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